EB - Questions and first thoughts

I apologize I didnt give much detail for that battle.Before I do, I would like to say that I love being beaten in RTW finally (despite that AI cheats) :-P

The terrain was flat and had a clerance between the trees.That seemed ideal for the phalanx, so that I would deploy them in the center on that clearance.At the right I put my Strategos and some peltasts along with some hippeis.On the left (which was my strong flank) I had Thorakitai, KH heavy peltasts, Thraikioi Peltasts mercs, and standard Greek Hoplitai and some Thureophoroi.It was like this:

Code:

---

KH Pelts__Thrakioi_Thorakitai_Phalanx_Phalanx_Phalanx_Thorakitai_Strategos_KH Pelts

-------Hoplitai-----Thureoforoi-------Hippeis------------------------------------------------------

---

My strat was to throw the phalanx in center and block them, while Strategos should hold the right.In the meantime my left second row should encircle their right, while Hippeis were left as reserves.That was the plan.But there come the small battle details that as IRL may turn a whole of events.

- For example my left was inside the woods.The opposition was mainly falxmen and thought I could pepper them in javelins before I charge with my heavy infantry.In fact the peppering did work.But when charged with Thorakitai, who I micromanaged to throw all their javelins (!), I got very very surprised to see the naked falxmen cutting my spearmen in pieces.Some should say this is logical.But I was fighting three thined falxmen units with both my thorakitai and my KH peltasts while Thrakioi were throwing Javelins from behind.I thought this should work but it didnt :-P

- Second.The "phalanx-wall" in the middle wasnt working.He threw his general at first and disrupted the formation.I also didnt know that phalanx need micro-management to do damage (this is not a nice bug :-/).So that was bad decision too.

- Third.My Strategos with the help of Hippeis won the right flank and routed the opposition, but while I was both angry for losing on my left and excited for winning the right I threw him on a bunch of enemies that couldnt confront and finally he routed (after fighting like a lion).So I did my mistake too :-)

*My left was fighting conservatively, (opportunistically in terms of strategy) so no fatigue was involved.They engaged in FRESH condition.

Overall despite the loss, it was a GREAT battle and Kroios Athinaios DID refought this Epirote army.But this time he had the supreme Longhophoroi Hippeis on his side, that made the difference ;-)

Cavalry is so nicely deployed inside the game both at terms of efficiency, cost and usage.Another thumbs up to the modders.

Thanks for contributing your experience and opinion to this topic.I really like to read them.

sounds like you should be taking many screenshots and perhaps writing an after action report? i have over 1000 screenshots from the many campaigns i've done, but i get scared to write an AAR due to the high quality of many on here. EB AAR's are so above anything others due to the complexity and nuance allowed by the mechanics

Hehe that's not my intention.BTW all screenshots I take are black (Windows 7 x64).This is a NEW game to me and I am learning new things each battle.I am just posting what I am dealing with to get ideas from experienced players. :-)

For example in RTW vanila, I used to put on the flanks cavalry along with skirmishers.If an infantry or cav attack happened I usually melee and win ...FAST.Here this is not the case because of higher morale.I had for about three minutes, Macedone Akontistai in loose formation (!) fighting my Phalangitai - how can cloth wearers stand against heavy infantry for that long is beyond me, still happened and lost :-P
But on the other hand it was the fight for their survival as a nation and maybe the engine CORRECTLY boosted their morale and stats ;-)

I had a major battle in Minor Asia against Ptolemae scam.Four armies against two of mine.I had a terrible time with two of their Klerouchoi Phalangitai.I had them surrounded with 4 (!) units fighting over 5 minutes and finally my units routed, lol.
I also encountered a Klerouchoi Galatae Swordsmen cutting through my Hoplites - this was horrible.

I certainly need to change my tactics and adapt to the terrain and the new style of battles.

yeah that's a problem for me too, we both have the same OS and if it weren't for Steam's overlay screenshot feature id not have a single screenie.

Yeah, i really hope for some responses in the population script thread Vollorix made, because i really am just sick and tired of PT and AS spam. With small nations like Epirus and Macedon and the league of Hellenes, its not an issue because they each have about 3 cities. but with HUGE empires its just sooooooooooooooooooooooooo boring and a chore to fight a never ending war because their populations don't run out while mine, from retraining, are completely gone.

adapting to different tactical situations is very fun to me. Don't ask why, but Antigonos' son left with only his Hetairoi and local guides to the northern lands, areas that the Sauro nor the Sweboz dare go. Perhaps he was scouting for future allies when we go farther north than Dacia, but Makedonia had yet to lose a battle to anyone and man, we were destroyed by a local Eleutheroi Family member! He hired a full stack of locals and the tactics necessary with these types of soldiers was far different than Hammer and Anvil which won Hellas for us. The super thick swamp and woods did not leave any room for our hired cavalry or himself to maneuver, and the enemies attacked so quickly it was a joke! He knew the battle was lost, and while the enemy army chased my routing mercenaries through the dense forest, he chased the enemy general to the ends of the earth and finally overcame him. It really was epic. He is now on his way back to Makedonia, his dreams of a northern colony now lost. (that army cost 50000 which we can't afford to do again). Or perhaps he will bring the veterans and conquerers of Ambrakia, Epidamnos, Magna Graeca and Sparte in a quest to get revenge ;-) sounds like a perfect use of state funds

this got me back to my old kh campaign sadly i saw that i had done a mistake on the planing of the campaign

for kh the best step is to develop rhodes as a place to recruit your top armies avoid recruiting in athens and in sparta until you have 6.000 of population in each

1st turn break the navy send 1 to krete and 1 to rhodes to collect all the armies that you can (invade kydonia with the spy and with your initial army take the city if you´re lucky 1st round and it´s done leave the akontistai as garrison and move quickly to the peleponesos) board whatever you can from rhose including the fm and if you feel lucky take chalkis imediatly (very tough batle) or go to athens to create an army and move on korintho from the east while your spartan army should move from the south (2nd or 3rd turn) take korinthos

now concentrate your entire manpower in athens and keep ferring soldiers from rhodes (avoid fighting with the navy regroup them and if the maks come better fight a defensive war you need that navy to keep sending units from rhodes so no sea batles unleass you´re sure to win)

take chalkis if you haven´t yet (i normally like to fight it with the rhodian fm he as like 1 year to live give or take so even if he dies you never loose much)

once that is done move quickly on demetrias and try to move even quicker on pella (send the spy ahead to check things ) remove the makedonians from europe and let them have lesbos (try not to kill them and let them with at least 1 fm) try and make peace or make them your protectorate (protectorate removes their agressivity so i normally prefer to make peace)

now it´s when things get interesting if you´re the agressive type go for ambrakia if not move north serdike and then naissos 4 forts on the river passes and then tylis and finally bizantion and 2 more forts on the passages from asia (time to save up for mines but always keep 1 strong army )

if you´re not at the epirotes throat yet (doubt it should be around 266bc so they´ve probably attacked you on pella or moved on thermon) go for them take ambrakia and use that city to the limit to recruit your best warriors and then north dalmatia as fast as possible and then segestica build 2 new forts in the passages to italy (if you´re lucky the epirotes have survived in italy make peace with them ) remember to build or retrain your navy you need to destroy the epirote navy so they can focus on armies

by now you´re probable on war with pontus over sinope use spies and diplomats to fight it for you ship up an army to pantakophion build 3 forts on the passages to the crimea and take the 2 city´s it helps you avoid a future endless stupid war with the hai and sauromatae (or post pone it since they ai normally procrastinates before they attack forts)

if sinope hasn´t rebelled back to you ... on your return trip land on sinope and take it from the pontus and try to make peace the war with the romans for magna graecia (if the epirotes have died) should be about to start (if they refuse you can always destroy them but that leaves you in danger of having a war with the seulecids sooner then what would be expected normally it´s over hallikarnasus)

by this time it should be around 255bc all your top mines are finishing their construction and you can afford around 5/10 navys (2 trieremes each) and 3 standing armies you are ready to start the fun blocking all harbours at will and invasions in the entire mediterranean and black sea basin

my error was not taking the crimea sooner and having destroyed pontus i found myself at war with the ptolomayois

to deal with the ptolomayois just land half a stack in alexandria (the importance of a strong navy) and siege it aslong as you´re threatning them in aygiptos proper they´ll divert resources from mikra asia just enough for you to take side and kilikia and then have fund with them on the river passages with rhodians and kretikoi shooting them down (and ofc also the bosphoran heavy archers wich is better for hand to hand combat so the beast unit you can wish fighting on walls)

fomalhaut - why bothering with the Scythai? Just let them be :-P
In fact there are so many woodlands and there you come at a disadvantage because of visibility.While you as a human struggle to spot your units' movements the AI knows in detail what he's doing.Nevertheless I sense you did find the enjoyment out of a massive defeat - it gives you the impression of realism.
I am looking to expand in Crimea and set some nice trade routes (just took Byzantium).In Balcans I wont am not going higher than Dunav.I will set alliances with local nations and let the peace be.Byzantin dogma :-P

moonburn - your strategy seems well planed, since Rhodes at start has a high population.But has a Single Point of Failure, that is the Navy :-P
In my game the Macedone Navy won our first encounter and chased me.Not to mention the occasional Eleutheroi fleets showing out of the blue.So if I board troops they will chase me 100% (RTW feat lol).I just want to ask you why leave the Macedons in game? What is the purpose? And Lesvos? This island provides a nice economic boost.

What I did was:
- Take Creta round 1
- Round 2 bring army from Creta, join with Sparta army and besiege and took Korinthos
- Then a series of battles (mostly defensive) around Athens started.I didnt have the population problem because outside Athens are some nice defensive spots where you can achive high kill ratios.So no retrain needs.
- Macedon some rounds later had issues with the Epirotes and couldnt send army so I quickly grabbed Chalkis.
- Then my next step was move the war near Demetrias again on the defensive and in the right time took it as well.
- Then rushed to Pella, etc

PS - about the AI population cheat I was thinking of spies acting as "plague-bombs".That could be something of use in this game. :-D

Naval supremacy is instrumental for success as the KH. You should build one or two war fleets à three to five units of strong ships (Triereis and upwards, preferrably Trieremiolai) and systematically hunt down pirates and enemy fleets. Naval superiority is easy to achieve if you know what you're doing.

True in principle, but I'd say it's more of a mid-game thing. Early on you can't afford a fleet -and- a half-decent army. So the alternative to having a fleet is island-hopping: making sure your armies never end the turn at sea except in a port. You'll lose the occasional cheap bireme, but that's acceptable.

Later on I do as you say and build a couple of decent war-fleets. The cheap lemboi remain in use as troop-transports.

Ksifos: The thing to remember with EB fleets is that you can't merge them -except- if other ships are already present in the port when the new fleet is being constructed. This is because the engine otherwise appoints the new fleet an admiral, immediately gives him a "summer" or "winter" trait and admiral's ships can't join in RTW. Combined fleets obviously cut down on micromanagement enormously and give a minor gameplay advantage in that they can all find shelter in the same port.

athanaric - you are right but that is impossible at the start where money goes down each round.If I recall well I got up to minus 12000 mnai before I started recovering.So early on, to build fleet was not an option.I now have a small fleet patrolling the Aegean and occasionally transporting troops to minor Asia where my main military front exists.Future plans involve invading of Cyprus as already been said, and I believe is a very important move strategically.
The difference with vanilla? Cyprus is WELL guarded ;-)

Randal - Thanks for the tip I didn't know that, yet it seems quite logical.The more I learn about EB the more I can sense how well designed it is by all aspects.

Small update - Epirotes are now silenced, having only two cities and for the time being I let them be.I have a feeling that if I eliminate them, the Senate would order a full scale invasion and right now that is something I can not afford.I eliminated Macedon and now besieging rebel Sardike.I plan to build my territory up to Dunav river then expand to the minor Asia and Crimea.I am allied to the Getai nation but I always have the fear of this people looking to plunder my rich cities :-P

For now the eastern front is full of action! While the Seleucid is not attacking maybe due to lack of resources or being distracted with something else, the Ptolemae has launched a FULL scale attack.I can not stop fighting this backstabbing scam :-P He besieges Ipsos each round, and I have to help lift the siege.I have a full stack on a hill near Ipsos blocking the way to the city.Inside the city my faction leader also with a full stack.

I had a major battle when a strategos of theirs passed by my army and besieged the town.On the other hand the smart AI had three medium stacks (around 1200~1300 each) attack from three directions simultaneously.Hopefully I wasnt encircled but still the odds were pretty even.
The result was a heroic victory for Klearchos Philasios and a bonus star as a result of this epic battle.Lasted over half an hour !!!

As I said in a previous post I had to adapt my tactics.As another poster said, cavalry is vital.It is the unit to win the battle.Now I always field a couple of Prodoromoi who with their nice stamina are ideal for killing the fleeing enemy and deploying them fast where it is needed.Also at least a unit of Xystophoroi who are the shock cavalry and give the decisive blow.Plus a couple of Hetairoi Aspidophoroi for disrupting the AI plans :-P

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.Keep 'em coming :-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ksifos

athanaric - you are right but that is impossible at the start where money goes down each round.If I recall well I got up to minus 12000 mnai before I started recovering.So early on, to build fleet was not an option.I now have a small fleet patrolling the Aegean and occasionally transporting troops to minor Asia where my main military front exists.Future plans involve invading of Cyprus as already been said, and I believe is a very important move strategically.

---

Of course, the war fleet only becomes important when you're about to seize Ionia or Kypros. The most important thing at the start is to get Korinthos and Kydonia ASAP and then build up the economy (ports!!!), while fending off the Makedonians.
And don't forget to tech up your factional barracks on Krete to level 4, so that you can train more Kretan Archers. Don't train too many though, because they're somewhat OP. Also, level 3 factional MIC on Rhodos willl produce Rhodian Slingers, which are great vs cavalry and heavy infantry.

Quote:

---

The difference with vanilla? Cyprus is WELL guarded ;-)

---

Yes but the Ptolies rarely reinforce it. Also, they cannot train elite units there, having a Type III government in place, so the most dangerous troops you'll encounter on the island are Thureophoroi. Be aware of Ptolemaioi fleets though. They love to recruit those floating pimpmobiles which have insane stats.

oh watch out, asia minor is quite a swamp when the Selecids are having tailwind, they throw armies at you mostly made of Phalangites of all types. be carefull when expanding into asia minor, early in game it can demmobilize you, watch out for Getic or Epirote agression(even when allied, you can never trust them! tho the Getai seem to be rather affable, in every KH campaign it took them ages to attack me even tho I had bordered them for quite a while) and do not forgot to ensure enough mobile army to enforce a poleis in destress(or have a good diplomat to cover up the mess ;) ).
In terms of navy I like to invest my money when availible(thus when you can afford building something in every settlement and have surplus money) in large low level fleets that may not win the day but at least don't get sunk by Pirates let alone AI navies, through sheer size can transport your strike forces fairly safe to Pontos, North africa or southern france. still Trieremiolai are my preffered weapon when fighting pirtates later on.
Serdike is a good target, generally going north is not a bad idea, as this is THE troop center for regional troops. and also holds large quantities of mines which can boost your economy quite a bit.

whats also fun at a later strage of game are viking tactics once you got control of the eastern mediterranean: get spies all over the medditerranean get a small fleet and an army with 5-10 units of which most usefull in sieges, and ransack all coastal cities of Ptolies and seleucids that lack a sizeable Garrison ;)
apart from the army paying for it's self you also setback the Diadochi arms industry, which reduces the number of agyraspidai or ptolemaic agemas. plus when destroying both ports that block the passage into the red sea you could mount a suicide mission into Persia(very silly but quite fun indeed)

As Makedonia, i wiped out Getai before they got too big to contain later on. Now i am very safe on every angle! It'll be decades before Suebi come my way. And the huge amount of mines from Thermon to Sigdinum, Segestica and Byzantion have so much money coming in that I feel awesome. Macedonians aren't the greatest traders it seems, like as Karthalo we were making 40,000 a year just through our vast trading empire, but we get by :)

I really do feel like Philip reforming the petty kingdom into a force capable of taking on the world.

Athanaric - I hope you are right about Cyprus.While is not a short term goal yet.I imagine it will be a "Viking raid" like CA Putt described, lol

CA putt- You are 100% right.Ptolemaios brings armies with phalanxes and maybe a couple of peltasts.No archers, horses, etc Just phalanx lol.While the phalanx has a terrifying view, it has a MAJOR disadvantage.It is very SLOW to manoever.My main army consists of hoplites (levy,classic) peltasts, Cretan Archers, Slingers, Aspidoforoi and their light counterpart, and a lot of cavalry (Prodromoi and Xystophoroi).

- I always advance in the flanks so my formation becomes like a "crescent moon".The main advantage is mobility and lethality of ranged units when attacking in the back of the phalanx.Their line formation is most usually disrupted and then I look for opportunities to encircle them and of course give the final charges with heavy cavalry.
- The AI is smart though! He now fields mostly Klerouchoi Phalangitai who have the cavalry bonus ;-)

This is going to be big.Your suggestion to go for a raid seems logical because otherwise I will fight in minor asia forever lol.And this costs a lot.
I still look for expanding my economy but still cant afford to upgrade mines (I am on 231BC) :-(
I am trying building on my population instead.

What I dont understand is some cities having high unrest (for example Hellikarnasos has 50%!!!).That is an EB feat but havent got it yet :-P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fomalhaut

And the huge amount of mines from Thermon to Sigdinum, Segestica and Byzantion have so much money coming in that I feel awesome. Macedonians aren't the greatest traders it seems, like as Karthalo we were making 40,000 a year just through our vast trading empire, but we get by :)

---

That sounds maybe like a solution to my financial problems lol.But Getai is a force that needs careful planing.I will think of it a short term expendition. ;-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fomalhaut

I really do feel like Philip reforming the petty kingdom into a force capable of taking on the world.

---

Macedones were always about greatness.So go for it :-P
Btw what are the Romans and Ptolemaioi doing in your game?

well i mean post Pyrrhus :-P

well by the time you can take on Getai, they may have spread too far. they only had 3 cities by 265, but with 2 full stacks. I sent my newly reformed professional army (i took Hellas with my levies and semi professionals) to siege their two main cities, knowing their stacks would attack and bring the inhabitants of the cities as well allowing me to shatter their army and take the city in one stroke. I defeated both armies but with some very crazy fighting, the wolves truly were fighting for their homeland! rewarding the bravery of the Getai i didn't sell anyone into slavery, their manpower is useful in my new armies :-)


The Ptolemaioi are struggling real bad against Seleukeia. They lost all posessions in Asia Minor and are desperately clinging to Jerusalem. The Romans have spread all the way to Emporion westward, but i currently have magna Graeca and Sicily and i intended to give it to Rome, but i'm not sure anymore as the greeks there seem to prefer my rule to anyone else. the reason I have all of sicily and the epirotes are completely dead is that the Epirotes of Magna Graec dared attack Syrakuse! I convinced Hero with some gold and my own reputation that being a friend of Macedona is better than being my enemy.

The Carthaginians of Lilibeo also had a full stack of elites which made the Syrakusans and Messanians now under my control very uncomfortable. I defeated it in a surprise night attack and after some hard fighting, my greatest losses yet!, i had victory. i took Lilibeo, killing their shopet Hamalcar and his son Hamalcar. With this huge set back i have the Carthaginian's paying me large tribute until all eternity. lest they want the Macedonian's in Carthage itself :-)

So far I have ended The KH, The Epirotes, and the Dacians. who's next? muahaha

this is a funny thread but i´m considering restarting my kh campaign over crimea :\

ksifos as for the ptolomaiois as i said take kilikia and fight river passes batles get 2 armies there since there´s at least 2 river passes and use kretikoi and rhodioi they´re killers and thorokitai on defensive move can last forever ^^

hehe yeah Phalanx armies are quite defeatable, sounds like you have a good strategy for the battle/s(there all the same). the real problem is that you have to fight every battle on your own and there are much more to come when you wander into asia minor and the AS does not like you(or the Ptolies when they hold it). this is why I call asia minor a swamp you get bogged down by diadochi phalangites all the time which can only stop when you at least take their core lands which lie several miles land inward(AS) or on a shore far away(I have not done this yet but maybe It'd be smart to conquer lower Egypt by boat and hold it In my campaigns The AS always are the big ones so it never seemed logical).
and be warned there is no quick victory in asia minor! destroying Antiochea(AS's most vulnerable Recruitment center for elite troops) and most mentionable Ptolemaic Cities does not reduce the number of troops they send against you! it only reduces the number of elites, which reduced your casualties and thus speeds up your process a bit but does not mean they wont attack you anymore!

fomalhaut - try minor asia and Ptolemaioi if you feel bold.I 'd really like to here some adventures of yours there :-P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by moonburn

this is a funny thread but i´m considering restarting my kh campaign over crimea :\

---

Unfortunately in minor Asia I am pinned down by the Ptolemaioi.So I would like some feedback from your Crimea campaing, because this is my next move to expand. :-)

I still dont have the resources to launch an expendition in Kilikia.I slowly build an army to take Cyprus first.Economy is nicely put in the game and forces your decisions most of the time, in contrast to vanilla where by now I should be RICH :-P

Ca Putt - you are right again.It is a SWAMP! Its round I fight around Ipsos, and FULL stacks are coming non stop, lol.And the funny thing? The AI adapts and now send more mixed armies, but mainly phalangites as his core troops.Still he adapts and that is GOOD!

I need expanding and only logical places are Crimea, Cyprus and Side (the last Seleucid town in Minor Asia !!!).
- Crimean cities besides the traditional hellenic bonds, should also boost my economy but would open a new whole set of adventures with the local Scythai people.I need scout the area first.
- Cuprus is a nice strategic point both economically and military.I can use it as a base to launch raids in the rear of Ptolemaioi
- Side must fall and eliminate any kind of threat against Hellikarnasos who occasionally an AS army besieges

*Getai is not an option right now, I need maintain good relations with them and for that purpose I have a diplomat as ambassador in their capital.

My campaign is at a halt, mainly developing my cities and fighting over Ipsos who managed to upgrade the eastern greek archontos mansion.AI is so smart knowing exactly the buildings you construct and at the last turn he send his new talented general and a bunch of Klerouchoi agema/ phalangitai a total of around 3500 men.It was a massacre.We LOST! It was an even odds battle.I had him attacked on the front while the Ipso's garrison led by our faction leader himself should strike from the behind.It was a major blow as we lost one of our most talented generals and victor against the Ptolemaioi.

The main lesson taught in that battle was that cavalry is not effective (to the point of being in a serious disadvantage) inside woods.Logical. ;-)
Second I need more elite ranged units like Rhodian slingers and Kretan Archers and also use them effectively - especially flaming arrows against enemy low morale or 'concerned' units.

On a civic note - I took Tylis and there was a barbarian government building which allowed me to raise a puppet governor who had some strange traits.He was a fine local governor but couldnt go outside the province for long.At first I was like "what's this" but then I tried understanding this feat and think is great.But here comes the question: what should happen if that same guy, destroys the barb government type and go for a Greek type II which is allowed there?

Still trying to understand why Hellikarnasos has so high unrest.

Never had the Sinope revolt or the Magna Grecia you all refering to.And I am quite long into the game era (230BC).

Puppet rulers cannot leave the province, just the terms of the job. The client ruler can only rule in puppet type IV governments, where they are allied with you but don't share the same government structure. if you change a Type IV to a type III, II or I then the client ruler cannot rule there. in type IV governments your own governers cannot rule there, considering they consider themselves only allied with you not under your rule.

Asia Minor isn't my cup of tea. Fighting Successors is just a tooooooooootal chore to me. Totally and completely boring to fight the never ending masses. It's stupid and the biggest flaw in this engine and this modification.

you just fight never ending elites until you destroy their elite center, then you just fight never ending regulars and levies because due to the AI a war can ONLY end if they are complete destroyed as a state. So if you go to war with someone it has to be with intentions to own ever piece of land they do, which i don't! when i go to war i want one territory, but the AI can suffer literally infinite crippling defeats but due to the unlimited money and men the AI receive (huge flaw in the mod) it doesn't matter. Your own cities can be absolutely devestated by retraining and funding to the point where you can't retrain anymore because the population is all gone and so too is your money, but due to infinite money and men of AI they can just send people over and over and over.

and the combat itself is just Lock phalanx, flank phalanx, charge phalanx until they break. its sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo BORING.

fomalhaut is right asia minor can be a major drag and thats the reason why i try to keep the makedonians alive and avoid destroying pontus when i can they can act as a counter balance to the ptolomaioi and the arche seleukeia

the crimean campaign is probably the easyest you´ll ever fight you embark an army land it on asia next to crimeia (take around 6 kretikoi or 6 rhodoi ) build a fort on that passage (you know the one beteween the black sea and the sea of azov where the volga ends) leave one kretikoi or one rhodoi on the fort )make sure it´s well stationed so that any army trying to enter the crimea will have to besiege it and then conquer it before moving on you can also leave another weaker depleted unit but then when 1 unit of spearman arrives and sieges it you can´t do much without reenforcements while with a kretikoi you can take it easily

then take pantakipoi it should have enough mic for you to set a nice garrison there with hoploi akontistai skytian archer and if you´re lucky enough the bosphoran heavy archer

then move fast to the crimean main passage and there should be a lake there just build 1 fort on each side of the lake and then take chernoesos

now to defend crimea you can go with having 1 navy (lemboi is/should be enough) and sending part of pantakipoi garrison by sea to the backs of anyone sieging your fort destroy it and return in time for lunch

when and if you can on the "twin forts" put up a decent garrison of 4-5 units and when someone besieges those forts you can send most of the garrison (always leave at least 1 unit) of the other fort against the back of those besieging it

always leave at least 1 unit because with sauromatae family members besieging it ... lets just say it might not be so easy to defeat the besiegers ....


but as i said crimean operations build 3 forts take the 2 city´s and be done with it those are greek city´s who normally have enough infrastructures for you to build garrisons and therefore are self sufeciente and easy to protect thanks to the forts even if you can´t break the siege you always have 3 turns to man up the garrisons (with bosphoran heavy´s wich are amazing i assure you best archers ever that you can have fighting on walls)

so 8 turns are normally enough (2 to arrive from bizantion to crimeia and build the asian fort) 3rd turn if you´ve got a proper general with enough movement points take the city (you should have siege it by turn 2 of the operation) turn 3 after taking the city embark the general and land it next to the lake on the crimean european passage build fort and move to the other side of the lake to build a new fort (you can move the navy to collec your general on the other side or if he´s strong and well 5rationed you can just move him) turn 4/5 you should be besieging chenoessos (remember to send in the rest of your army from pantakipion) i normally wait 3 turns (while besieging it ) so i can send a unit of akontistai and 1 unit of haploi to garrison chernoessos

so if you want in 5 turns (depending on the vigour of your general) you can wrap up the crimean campaign board the navy (remember to leave a lemboi or a pentastikoi in panthakion) and return to either hellas proper or land in sinope to relieve it from the pontiac dreadfull claws

if you work fast you can take on that campaign as early as 260bc (remember you need either enough kretikoi or enough rhodoi use peltastai to take the walls put the rhodoi or kretikoi on the walls once you´ve taken them and move your hoplitai into the city to draw them into shooting range of rhodoi or kretikoi ) i use a minimum of 6 kretikoi because i wanna leave 3 of them in the forts and then suplement them with skytian horse units who are fast and can relieve a siege on the forts (except for the asian fort where i rather use bosphorans and hoploi which are the garrison of panthikoi)

fomalhaut - well the option is there in case you feel boredom :-D
I had my faction leader getting the Spymaster trait so I spammed spies all over minor asia, the east coast and even to Alexandria.The Ptolemaioi have all these territories under their control - that is a lot of cities.Most have one two units max as a garison.I mean the Egyptian diadochos bringing all that much army isn't cheating at all - yet aggresive recruiting plus using mercs.And that is a good feature for the AI.

monnburn- I am on 223BC and now Crimea has guests :-P I managed taking the historical Chersonesos with an expendition army led by one of the Lakedaiomonios family members.I had a script event and the strategos took a Chersonesos trait.I also saw those archers you spoke right away being recruitable.20 defense!! lol.Plus the cheap scythai horse archers will be a BIG help in the ptolemaioi front.

Small update - Just pacified Side and established a Klerouchoi government.We are reaching our limits and may now think of interfering more with the locals even setting alliances.I deal with massive armies of the Ptolemaioi, and now he has good mixes too.Most usually their strong armies are like this:

Bodyguard--Strategos--Galatai Klerouchoi----Phalangitai (Mahimoi, MANY Klerouchoi, and some Agema)---Thorakitai--Galatai Klerouchoi

I had this army besieging Ipsos (around 3500 men in total) and hit them having my garison attack from behind.The $@%* reinforcements were DELAYED :-( I had to do tricks but it wasn't enough.IIRC the engine unless you start melee fighting it keeps the reinforcements out of the battle.It was a DISASTER.But an EPIC one lol.
Their phalanx slowly but systematically pushed us to the edge where no manoevres were possible.I tried spamming his right flank to kill his strategoi.Quite cleverly on the right time he withdrew him and I was getting massacred by the damned Galatai Barbarians :-P BTW these guys are very strong and hard to break.

Nevermind I had reinforcements on the way and next round I pushed them out.Still it was a blow to put me into thoughts.
I have a "Viking party" on board to Cyprus.I will counter the Ptolemaioi scam by raiding his capital.Maybe keep it :-P

I am low on money again.Too many generals!

PS - too many CTDs now.

herm i hope you haven´t abused on the client kings they are ... very expensive (use one or two i normally use one in tylis 1 in naissos and 1 in ankyra since they give the best suport troops like gaesetai )

also to figure it out who has what either do toggle_fow (once to check it and then do it again to remove it or else the passage of turns goes .... slowly) or send them a diplomat and on the deman region you can check how many and wich city a faction as

i started a new kh campaign (or am about to start one just trying out diferent 5 1st turn combinations <-- chess playin as it´s advantages) and discovered that you can take chalkis (and not just kydonia) on turn 1 just move the athikos a hoploi and the slingers into the city to besiege it and then use the slingers good to win the day

moonburn - Well only one puppet in Tylis - btw didnt know their cost issue so thanks for the tip :-)
I don't use console, I prefer the legit way of doing things (spies, diplomats, etc), hehe.
Nice to hear you started a KH campaign.Let's share our adventures and opinions.Nice move on Chalkis who also gives a nice economic boost.But Creta is a rich place too, still you can have it anytime.So maybe what you did is better on the short run.What settings are you playing?

My game took a whole different aspect!
While Pontus had Nikea and was being besieged by Ptolemai, all of a sudden Amasia defects to Pontus and grants him a full stack as garison.That made Pontic king more bold and accepted an alliance with me.

But in the meantime I had wreaked havoc in the Ptolemean Empire:
- After a while he besieged Nikea.I immediately brought an army from main Greece and besieged and took it as soon as Ptolemae entered the city.:-P
- My "Viking Party" had already beisieged Cyprus and finally conquered it.The egyptian capital was down.All population was enslaved and the council took the decision that we keep this city.
- Just when Klerouchoi government was establisehd in Cyprus the general in command left a small garrison and with the help of our dominant fleet disembarked and beisieged Sidon.It only had a general and two Klerouchoi Phalangitai inside.I didnt attack cause I knew I would lose on the wall fights.He brought a small army and attacked me both sides.He lost, both the battle and the city.The population was again enslaved and cultural buildings were demolished.
- After retraining my mercenaries on Sidon, I besieged Hierosolyma.Sorry Ptolemae was unprepared :-P I gifted Sidon to Pontus and next turn Hierosolyma had the fate of Sidon.At that time a full stack out of Alexandria was coming towards me and the nile cities started to get filled with army.AI is smart !
- In minor Asia I had consecutive MAJOR victories over Ptolemae.He was now weak.I quickly grabbed Anjyra and decided to enforce the greek culture on this barbaric place, hehe.

At this moment I am besieging Tarsos.Only one unit as garrison :-P And that should be our frontier at the east, for the time being.

Overall, this reminds me of vanilla Egypt.The only nation NEVER destroyed in numerous campaignhs I played.So what EB demonstrates is the same as vanilla just on a bigger scale - both time and manpower.But in the end he collapses.Just think of the mighty 30-years' war or worse the Hundrend Years' war.The war with Ptolemae lasted between 15 to 20 years.I mean this is historically realistic and it CAN happen. ;-)

Now I sit on a 2/3 conquered Minor Asia and plan for the future.I have a general who can build those GREAT buildings for ridiculous prices.I built a top barracks for 5400 (instead of 12k) so he gets over -50% in building costs.I have him going around cities and queing big buildings lol.

Overall KH is well designed, very challenging and interesting campaign.

the only settings that i can play in are huge it´s the one that feels more real and since i get part of my kicks from planing ahead including population wise that helps me alot

Sorry I meant difficulty settings :-)

Huge is obvious or else the game feels unrealistic.Provided of course your computer can handle it.

Just a small update - The Pontus now took Sidone and Mazaka so now he totals three cities.Not bad for a dying nation.We are still allied and so my east border is protected.I think having a diplomat at their capital and offering a small gift works - at least Getai havent attacked since round 1.

I had 4~5 years of peace and prosperity.Cash flows $$$ but well AI doesnt like peaceful eras so here comes the Seleucid out of nowhere claiming Minor Asia.I have fortified the bridge in Tarsus but he attacked three time with cataphracts and elite phalangitai! I only managed two times.The third I fled :-P
Then he attacks Pontus.BUT Pontic armies are very experienced and well rounded (kudos to Scythe chariots) so he fails miserably there too :-D

Had a map negotiation with Romans.They are stuck at the peninsula, while carthagenian has taken all west africa, south spain and south France.He also holds Sicily.I think this is a fine opportunity to invade the "Italian Peninsula" claim Epirus bases there - they were Spartan colonies after all :-P- and then either fighting the Romans or restoring Magna Grecia.The resources are there the manpower and tech also, so I think any kind of plan is viable.

I wouldn't like to hurt the Getai (although their mines are tempting), since they have been loyal allies and friends.Plus they are at war with Sauromatai and maybe I should grab the opportunity and attack Pantikapaion that is under Sauromatai authority - it is our right by legacy after all :-D

What is impressing, is the way the AI plans its strategy towards other AI controlled nations.In vanilla in that point it should be me vs ALL, lol

Anyway I am open to ideas, impressions or details of your KH campaigns.If not having one, its never late to start one.I assure it's worth it, every minute of gameplay. :-))

good to hear your progress :)

on pontos:
do not trust them, as soon as they take a hellenic poleis you will declare war on them, but until then they really are a viable shield against the AS.

on Getai,
they are good allies imho and as long as you claimed 1-4 tracian/scordici territories before they did conquering them is merely a bonus that can be postponed until they attack you or you get megalomaniac. the terrain favors forts and makes it easy to lock of the main attack route(or keeps them from wandering into your territory while allied).

on the krim:
take it, Sauromatae are lousy siegers and when one settlement builds up the regional mic and the other one the factional MIC you've got access to alot of fun troops(usefull when attacking pontos ;) apart fromt hat there is a scripted event that helps you, strange you had so few scripted events until now.

on my (first)campaign:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

as it was my first EB (actually RTW at all) campaign I played on M/M and got sucked in by the AS, in other words: instead of conquering my VCs in spain and egypt I whiped out the AS in a long and tedious campaign and I took Gaul at some point(tho that was comparatively easy. apart from some wierd FMs I've got through lacking roleplaying:
after I took Italy, I sent two FMs with a medium sized Army into the Alps to take those regions from the migrated romans in the false belief that those "newly conquered retreat settlements" would be an easy prey - Wrong, I got suprised by four roman fullstacks which cost me my experienced super FM and large parts of my army - with only 200 hoplites and some 1-20 men units, my junior FM(who sucked) escaped and found romani units blocking the paths out of the alps. surrounded and badly outnumbered he did the only thing he could do and attacked the weakest romani unit(still about 800 men led by a captain) autoresolved

and won
which gave him real good traits and several stars :D after that he bought some Mercenaries, and went berserk on roman alps. a really crappy FM turned into a brutally efficent Battlemaster with all traits and ancillaries that increased loot, decreased mercenary cost and several other more or less "good" traits ;).
in one of the conquered settlements installed a lvl 4 gov ( I needed reinforcements) which gave me a celtic lesser king - who accompanied this FM for the rest of his campaign which had the downfall of transalpine Rome and the aedui as a result(and two 9XP hoplites)
on the other side of the earth a FM 2 spartiatai, 2 Kretikoi and 1 Thrakioi Prodromoi( i had cash) circumnavigated Arabia and took the Garrison of Persepolis totally by supprise especially as at the same time I bribed Babylon, which threw the AS in total chaos :D

my new kh campaign ended on 267 i was removing the epirotes when i did toggle_fow and discovered that the epirotes had lost tarentum since the makedonians had already died (i mean 3 fm´s in pella and they died :\) so my entire plan was crushed i wanna keep the maks in lesbos and the epirotes in magna graecia so without it there´s no reason to continue (luckly i had saved up the initial 1st turn where i get a spy to open the kydonian gates)

also i had almost forgot you can collect over 10.000 mnai from the seulekids for a peace agreament wich should help your kh campaign get on it´s feet fast enough

CA Putt - hehe this is a nice story.I really enjoy when random events like that "battle out of desperation" you won, turn the game plot dramatically.That is called realism! On the other hand you maybe right attacking Sauromatai and taking moonburn's advice blocking passage into crimea with the two forts.That would serve both taking a town of greek origin and tradition but also helping our fellow Getai nation in their war against them.Plus Sauromatai holds the whole Scythia region which is BIG! So they need slow down a bit after all :-P

moonburn- Money isn't an issue anymore.I have this frugal FM going all over the nation queing buildings CHEAP! I am finishing all mines' upgrades so mnai is flowing.
I really try to understand your obsession with the Macedons and their "Lesvo's exile" but I fail :-P Still it is good to hear you are on your KH adventure.Waiting some news of your progress.

PS - A really strange event happened.Emporium in northern east coast of Iberia defected to our nation! How on earth? Maybe another greek colony of the past? Still Public order is 0% so I am not holding any serious hopes besides that will possibly have me in war with Carthagena, lol.

haha, yeah emporion probably is one of the more annoying cases of Hellenic poleis rebelling to you^^ I had the priceless advantage of owning (and beeing able to hold) Massilia at the time they defected to me. brought me alot of trouble, as the Spaniards are known for guerillia warfare and (in EB) for spamming. but at least it's a free (compatible)barrack at the end of the world.
when you based your army on hoplitai this can prove very usefull, as you don'T have to ship them all the way back to Greek.

and when defeated on see the Carthagians make nice little targets for coastal raids ;)
go for the Krim! :)