A durable solution for Africa

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Europe installs ruthless colonial regimes which pillage the natural resources, all the while pllaying ethnic and tribal strife against eachother

Then Europe leaves in the dead of night leaving the colonial head crackers in charge. They in turn become ruthless despots...surprise

Now we should do it again?

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Quite a few countries had a choice between becoming South Africa or Zaire.

I do distinctly recall Belgian government in the 60's having a phased plan for independence, where they would build up the country and actually build up a pluralist-minded ruling elite, who would little by little take-over and assume control, starting with the municipal administrative regions. Elections would be held repeatedly while still under Belgian sovereignty, which would make sure that those who ventured politics in Congo were not unaccountable warlords or people with blatant disregard for the rule of Law or autocratic tendencies. So as the people and ruling elites would gain some measure of pluralist culture over the decades, with the appearance of different parties et al. and the appearance of accountability of the Congo politicians to the people, Congo would become actually a viable country, some sort of African Brazil. Instead the elites wanted immediate power, played upon the frustrations of the people, and massacred enough Belgians that the events surpassed the Belgian plans and they got what they wanted: Total and immediate power. The rest of the history can be guessed. It's just about the same thing as your average African country. Worse even.

Plans had been made for roughly the same purpose in the Portuguese African colonies.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Wait can you rephrase that. The syntax has me confused. The statement doesn't really make any sense. I have an idea what you meant but I am not sure.

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the idiots like to think they ran these places all spiffing and whatnot, that is a big lie.

But how does that address other colonies being well off afterwards?

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

But how does that address other colonies being well off afterwards?

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does not matter in the slightest if an ex colony is bad or good today they were all bad when they were colonies.

Name one that did not have terrible and sometimes unimaginable horrors visited upon the native population.

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Originally Posted by Jolt

I do distinctly recall Belgian government in the 60's having a phased plan for independence, where they would build up the country and actually build up a pluralist-minded ruling elite [..]

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Hahahahaha! :bounce:

Seriously, Belgian rule of the Congo is generally recognised as being among the worst colonial regimes ever. The Belgians made a total mess of it, they left in a hurry and all they could do was pick a probable winner in the ensuing power struggle in which the US, the Soviets and South Africa were already involved as rival outside forces.

AII

Advocates of imperialism should always consider how keen they would be for the situation to be reversed. To be consistent, European imperialists should welcome the armed intervention of the People's Liberation Army to come and sort out our inability to run our own countries.

Unwanted colonisation seems to be a subject that exercises Fragony most of the time - odd to see him advocating it as a solution for others.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Hahahahaha! :bounce:

Seriously, Belgian rule of the Congo is generally recognised as being among the worst colonial regimes ever. The Belgians made a total mess of it, they left in a hurry and all they could do was pick a probable winner in the ensuing power struggle in which the US, the Soviets and South Africa were already involved as rival outside forces.

AII

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The source of Congo's problems is not that the colonists left too soon, but that they have never left.

I'm going to be obscenely pretentious, and quote some poetry to make my point. It's Kipling, funnily enough.

Take up the White Man's Burden
The Savage wars of peace-
Fill the mouth full of famine
And bid the sickness cease.

Shall we have a look at another overpopulated area which has struggled to feed its population for millennia?

That would be China. That area has always been overpopulated and always struggled to feed itself. It's actually only managed to do that during the last 50 years or so. China found its answer on its own, and I see no reason why Africa won't do the same.

India is another starvation-area which has managed to feed itself first after the west stopped meddling.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

It's actually only managed to do that during the last 50 years or so

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Wut, forgot about the Great leap Forward

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

That would be China. That area has always been overpopulated and always struggled to feed itself. It's actually only managed to do that during the last 50 years or so.

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The largest famine in Chinese history (and probably human history as well) took place under Mao in 1959-61 and it was government-induced.

AII

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

The largest famine in Chinese history (and probably human history as well) took place under Mao in 1959-61 and it was government-induced.

AII

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What is 2011 minus 1961, Adrian?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

What is 2011 minus 1961, Adrian?

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Before that there was pretty much enough food. The effects were felt WAY longer than 1961, especially in the 'wild west'

Educate thyself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Educate thyself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

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Maybe they should, almost 50 million died not 15. See more mistakes, 20.000 dutch in WW2, it's closer to 100.000

Good book on China, it's a roman though http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Swans

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Originally Posted by Subotan

I'm going to be obscenely pretentious, and quote some poetry to make my point. It's Kipling, funnily enough.

Take up the White Man's Burden
The Savage wars of peace-
Fill the mouth full of famine
And bid the sickness cease.

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I always thought his warning about colonialism (from the same poem) was on the mark:

By all ye cry and whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I always thought his warning about colonialism (from the same poem) was on the mark:

By all ye cry and whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

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It isn't a warning about colonialism he is dead serious

edit, wrong poem

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And I say to my people's masters: Beware
Beware of the thing that is coming,
Beware of the risen people
Who shall take what ye would not give...

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Pearse said it best with this line even if he was a bit mad in the head.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

What is 2011 minus 1961, Adrian?

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Oh please, the world's most prominent historian of the episode makes it 1959-62 and starvation in China continued for years after that. So did cannibalism.

AII

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Oh please, the world's most prominent historian of the episode makes it 1959-62 and starvation in China continued for years after that. So did cannibalism.

AII

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How is 49 years different from "50 years or so"?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

How is 49 years different from "50 years or so"?

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The days of the Great Leap Forward are nicely catogarised, the actual effects less so, some say up the the late seventies. Some estimates go up to 200 million in total

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Originally Posted by Fragony

The days of the Great Leap Forward are nicely catogarised, the actual effects less so, some say up the the late seventies. Some estimates go up to 200 million in total

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How is that relevant when what I was referring to was the period after that event?

That was after all the last famine in China. Before that, there was always a famine going on somewhere in China. No more of that now, China is now well-fed.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

How is that relevant when what I was referring to was the period after that event?

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Because it took a while to recover, duh. The famine lasted a lot longer, 159-1961 was just the period of the politics. After the Great Leap Forward the Cultural Revolution started and it's all guesswork from there.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

That was after all the last famine in China.

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Is a 1979 famine in China late enough for you?

AII

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Originally Posted by Lemur

So would a "durable" solution be something similar to a "final" solution? Oh, I couldn't help myself! Thank you, thank you, I'll be playing here all week. Try the veal. Tip your waitress -- but don't tip her over!

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Agreed.

You can't treat an entire continent as a problem. In less, of course, you're in Antarctica and the problem involves birth control.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Advocates of imperialism should always consider how keen they would be for the situation to be reversed. To be consistent, European imperialists should welcome the armed intervention of the People's Liberation Army to come and sort out our inability to run our own countries.

Unwanted colonisation seems to be a subject that exercises Fragony most of the time - odd to see him advocating it as a solution for others.

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I welcome a Belgian takeover of the U.S. The healthcare plan would include free waffles, fries, and beer for seniors.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Is a 1979 famine in China late enough for you?

AII

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Cease your endless stream of facts at once! Bloody dutchie. You're making it very hard to make broad statements.

Anyway, the food situation in China is now stable and it does manage to feed its population. Or do you disagree with that?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Cease your endless stream of facts at once! Bloody dutchie. You're making it very hard to make broad statements.

Anyway, the food situation in China is now stable and it does manage to feed its population. Or do you disagree with that?

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1. Fact: 1979–1982: Emergency food assistance to refugees and people affected by natural disasters. WFP assistance started with provision of emergency food assistance for Indo-Chinese refugees in Guangdong and Yunnan provinces through quick-action projects.

2. Fact: When China began co-operating with the World Food Program thirty years ago, it depended on the organization's aid to feed 400 million people.

This, plus the One Child Policy, is what prevented millions ferom starving in the 1980's and 1990s.

AII

Again with the facts....

When did we stop discussing things using only bigotry and hyperbole?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Again with the facts....

When did we stop discussing things using only bigotry and hyperbole?

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Wait for my coming hyperboles, you'll be amazed :smash:

AII

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Hahahahaha! :bounce:

Seriously, Belgian rule of the Congo is generally recognised as being among the worst colonial regimes ever. The Belgians made a total mess of it, they left in a hurry and all they could do was pick a probable winner in the ensuing power struggle in which the US, the Soviets and South Africa were already involved as rival outside forces.

AII

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Oh, I'm quite aware of that. Not one of the worst, but up to par with the German methods, it is THE worst. Nevertheless, the massive brutality ended after the transfer of sovereignty from the King to the country, and improved after World War 2. The 50's/60's saw a gradual improvement in the treatment of the African population, which is exactly when there was the discussions to build up the native elite to rule.

Portuguese colonization on the other hand, always placed a great deal of influence on the intermingling between colonial and native populations. So much that when the revolt started in Angola (Imported from Belgian Congo, where they thought that with similar handful massacres they could also scare the Portuguese into running away.) a lot of the native population actually sided with the Portuguese. So much that there were plenty more dead black people (Portuguese supporters) than white people in those initial massacres. Plus there was a broad support from the native population to maintaining the Portuguese administration. The expansion of infrastructure and native education in the colony withered away the support that the independence movements had. But obviously the economy was mostly agricultural and small-scale industry.

That is the type of colonization I do propose, with the adaptations needed to suit the modern day's challenges and opportunities.