California passes Dream Act. Illegal immigrants get state money for college.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

I don’t think it is fair to anyone else!

Certainly not the taxpayers or students competing for aid.

Illegal is illegal. I suppose this is just an effort to secure another voting block for their party. It may be an illegal voting block but they have done what they can to make it possible in the past.

I don’t blame the illegals for wanting to be here. I do blame the politicians for smoothing the way and praying on them with pandering legislation.

To me it seems more like overt political corruption. They choose to ignore legality in favor of gaining illegal votes.

How dose that benefit society?

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To be fair, the "gaining votes" angle is kind of lacking. In the US, blacks and hispanics have been solidly in the Democratic camp for many, many years now. Passing this bill just to further establish what is already there at the risk of turning away white moderates doesn't make much sense.

I have seen first hand how student governments at california uni's (err, at least mine) have been side by side with others, leading the lobbying for this bill to pass. I was asked I think maybe 2 or 3 times to fill out a card with a blanket statement saying, "PASS THE DREAM ACT!" which they (the students organizing this thing) said were going to be sent to the governor in many mass mailing attempts.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

I have seen first hand how student governments at california uni's (err, at least mine) have been side by side with others, leading the lobbying for this bill to pass. I was asked I think maybe 2 or 3 times to fill out a card with a blanket statement saying, "PASS THE DREAM ACT!" which they (the students organizing this thing) said were going to be sent to the governor in many mass mailing attempts.

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Who would have thought? University students wanting to help their friends who are unable to apply for the same money to which they are eligible.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

To be fair, the "gaining votes" angle is kind of lacking. In the US, blacks and hispanics have been solidly in the Democratic camp for many, many years now. Passing this bill just to further establish what is already there at the risk of turning away white moderates doesn't make much sense.

I have seen first hand how student governments at california uni's (err, at least mine) have been side by side with others, leading the lobbying for this bill to pass. I was asked I think maybe 2 or 3 times to fill out a card with a blanket statement saying, "PASS THE DREAM ACT!" which they (the students organizing this thing) said were going to be sent to the governor in many mass mailing attempts.

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Students often support things that in hindsight are downright silly.

Jerry Brown…well, do they still call him Gov. Moon Beam?

Students don’t often care who pays the bills so long as it is not them.

They don’t often vote themselves but someone may vote for them, just as with the dead.

I stand by it being an indicator of corruption.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

They don’t often vote themselves but someone may vote for them, just as with the dead.

I stand by it being an indicator of corruption.

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Would you care to substantiate this? I know that, given the state of American politics, it is entirely possible, but could you please provide explicit examples of it in order to impute political corruption as a factor in the passage of this bill?

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Who would have thought? University students wanting to help their friends who are unable to apply for the same money to which they are eligible.

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Depends. There are other..."helpful" activities that I hear my student government wants (or is) getting involved with, which may or may not be sketchy. I don't think it is "wanting to help their friends" so much as furthering their ideology.

If my student government really wanted to help fellow students, I can think of a lot of things they should be doing and a lot of things they should stop doing.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Depends. There are other..."helpful" activities that I hear my student government wants (or is) getting involved with, which may or may not be sketchy. I don't think it is "wanting to help their friends" so much as furthering their ideology.

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Student governments support all students, regardless of their immigration or citizenship status. Certainly that is the case here. As such to complain about student governments wanting to perform their function seems strange to me.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Student governments support all students, regardless of their immigration or citizenship status. Certainly that is the case here. As such to complain about student governments wanting to perform their function seems strange to me.

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I am telling you, student government don't necessarily support all students. And they don't always perform their function. They can be just corrupt as real government and tasks are given that are just as absurd. College kids have no idea what real power tastes like, so when we all get to sit in a closed room around a big table on the second floor in a room with large windows, mistakes are made.

EDIT: There are college Republican chapters in every uni in the US. Probably none of them like this Dream Act. Is their student government supporting them by sending mass letters in support of the bill?

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Would you care to substantiate this? I know that, given the state of American politics, it is entirely possible, but could you please provide explicit examples of it in order to impute political corruption as a factor in the passage of this bill?

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Here you go!

http://factfinder.census.gov/jsp/saf...p16_government

Least likely voter group = 18 to 24

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

I am telling you, student government don't necessarily support all students. And they don't always perform their function. They can be just corrupt as real government and tasks are given that are just as absurd. College kids have no idea what real power tastes like, so when we all get to sit in a closed room around a big table on the second floor in a room with large windows, mistakes are made.

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Being actively involved in politics at my University, I am completely aware of all of these htings.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

EDIT: There are college Republican chapters in every uni in the US. Probably none of them like this Dream Act. Is their student government supporting them by sending mass letters in support of the bill?

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If they were given the opportunity to run for the government, yes. Just because there isn't a concensus doesn't mean there isn't a plurality. Otherwise nothing would get done by any government. Ever.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

Here you go!

http://factfinder.census.gov/jsp/saf...p16_government

Least likely voter group = 18 to 24

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I don't see how this supports your opinion that this was for political corruption purposes.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Being actively involved in politics at my University, I am completely aware of all of these htings.

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Well then, I guess we have just to agree to disagree. I think this is one of those cases where it isn't looking in the best interests of the students and fulfilling their function.

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If they were given the opportunity to run for the government, yes. Just because there isn't a concensus doesn't mean there isn't a plurality. Otherwise nothing would get done by any government. Ever.

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Well, this is true but in my opinion, student government should be involved in things that help all students, not some at the expense of others because there is a consensus about who should get the shaft.

Providing free education is going to be a major draw to coming illegally to California. Parents are more likely to risk it if they think their children will benefit.

Illegal should mean just that. Economic migrants should be able to get passes to work, but those without should be rapidly deported.

There could be scholarships for overseas students to apply for which come with a student visa for the duration, but that is very different.

To create a system where evading the laws is beneficial creates severe moral hazard.

~:smoking:

Illegals vote. Not investigating voter fraud and thereby saying it doesn't exist because they haven't found any is akin to saying the sun never sets while never going outdoors.

All of the arguments against VOTER ID requirements are are a subtle way of encouraging voter fraud. The idea that someone cannot afford a $20 ID or the transportation to go get the card are ludicrous. Even more ludicrous is the Democratic opposition to VOTER ID bills that specifically include provisions to make it easier for poor people to get those IDs.

Rewarding the children of illegal immigrants is buying votes, pure and simple. If anyone thinks that potential immigrants are not drawn to the prospect of a brighter future for their kids, no matter how far off that is, they are living in a fantasy world. And all this hubbubb about "fixing" the underlying issues is equally preposterous, as it is not out job as a country to fix Mexico.

I think the Act in many ways is a good thing. You have an educated "illegal" population, who only bar for citizenship is the fact their parents are from another country. Countries like the USA thrive on immigration and the inspiration and creation of ideas since the workhorses of China and India are fueling the production pipelines. Since these kids would have to be intelligent to qualify for this in the first place, it would mean they would advance in American society becoming "legal" and bringing future profits and return for the nation.

They are there anyway, and if they are there, it probably might end up cheaper for them to go through this route where the nation might benefit from it, then it is to get them out of the country.

So if a guy decides to murder someone would you let them go free as you are too late to save the victim?

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Originally Posted by CountArach

I don't see how this supports your opinion that this was for political corruption purposes.

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What MRD said!

That is how it is corrupt.

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

What MRD said!

That is how it is corrupt.

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So why does it matter if young people are the least electorally active age bracket? I'm really just trying to figure out why you posted that link.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

So why does it matter if young people are the least electorally active age bracket? I'm really just trying to figure out why you posted that link.

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Because I misread your request as wanting voter information.

American Politicians, like any others do most everything to stay in office and very little is directed toward the public good.

Over the last three of four decades this has only become increasingly blatant, at least in the US.

It may be couched in terms that are more publicly acceptable but it is still advantage seeking at public expense.

If they truly wanted to put things right they would take a more liberal approach to improving their legal situation. But it is actually to their advantage to keep them as an underclass while appearing to care about their plight.

Turn the parents into martyrs. Like the ghetto scum on Maury saying I TAKE CARE OF MY BABY as if we thought it was, ya know, normal to do otherwise.

They came here for a better life, due largely in part to an extremely generous welfare system and politicians who look the other way. WIC, Food Stamps and Medicaid were the immediate benefits, stuff like the DREAM ACT are the long term benefits.

If you think otherwise, look at what is happening in Alabama. Enforce the law and people leave. Funny how the liberal press is making it sound like a mass exodus which will destroy the economy, which it isn't and it won't. But people still left.

FACT: Several FBI, DEA and ATF investigations of drug/weapons gangs from Mexico had to pull up stakes and move to other states prior to the enactment of the since-stricken Arizona law that enforced immigration law. Why? Because the gangs (who were illegal immigrants and in some cases catered to illegal immigrants) moved out of Arizona when it became apparent the law would go into effect. One such gang moved into Oklahoma City, where the bust was executed a month later before they could move again when Oklahoma started talking about such law.

Relaxing the standards will draw the people who thrive by violating the law.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

To create a system where evading the laws is beneficial creates severe moral hazard.

~:smoking:

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It isn't beneficial. It's just less of a negative than it was.

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Illegals vote. Not investigating voter fraud and thereby saying it doesn't exist because they haven't found any is akin to saying the sun never sets while never going outdoors.

All of the arguments against VOTER ID requirements are are a subtle way of encouraging voter fraud. The idea that someone cannot afford a $20 ID or the transportation to go get the card are ludicrous. Even more ludicrous is the Democratic opposition to VOTER ID bills that specifically include provisions to make it easier for poor people to get those IDs.

Rewarding the children of illegal immigrants is buying votes, pure and simple. If anyone thinks that potential immigrants are not drawn to the prospect of a brighter future for their kids, no matter how far off that is, they are living in a fantasy world. And all this hubbubb about "fixing" the underlying issues is equally preposterous, as it is not out job as a country to fix Mexico.

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No, people really do believe it is the right thing to do. I'm with you on voter id though, the people complaining about that are pathetic.

@MRD: No, Mexico is the neighbour that doesn't take care of his property and let weeds fester all over the place. Your choice is one of:
(a) Do nothing as it's his weeds now festering in your garden
(b) Write a stern note telling the weeds to go fester somewhere else.
(c) Sigh and spend extra time and effort in maintaining your garden.

Now, Mexico is that country with next to no prospects for many of its people. The USA by comparison is the promised land. Your choice to deal with the flow of illegal immigrants is to:
(a) Do nothing. Free flow of people, goods, trade, ftw. Didn't bully those countries into that free tradezone for nothing, you know...
(b) Write a stern note and impose border patrols to tell people off for trying to get into the USA.
(c) Sigh and spend extra cleaning up the mess people make (kids who are stuck between a rock [Mexico] and a hard place [illegality]) when they manage to enter the USA eventually. This amounts to spending more on your infrastructure for education, health etc.

So yeah, this law doesn't make it into the “genuinely great idea” bracket of laws but it does make it in the “good” category because it's not actually deaf and blind to reality (as opposed to your alcohol/drug laws).

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

The bold part is actually a big component of the Federal​ Dream Act, which has been defeated many times.

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Considering the way US politics work just because something has been defeated doesn't mean it wouldn't work or is a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/california-politics/2011/10/gov-jerry-brown-has-signed-california-dream-act-legislator-says.html

What do you guys think of this?

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Well someones gotta get the money that continually escapes my grasp.

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Originally Posted by Tuuvi

Considering the way US politics work just because something has been defeated doesn't mean it wouldn't work or is a bad idea.

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not what I was insinuating.

Oh ok sorry for misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

First you accept the vague bit about immigrants being good for the country.

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I completely agree with that notion when applied to legal immigrants. America should be fighting for the best minds in the world (and subsidizing their education and research), but a lot of our immigration policies - especially those implemented after 9/11 - do the exact opposite.

However, the vast majority of the immigrants we're talking about are not the best minds in the world - far from it. They are a drag on the system, not a boost. Further, as I mentioned before, the biggest issue with this law without a path to citizenship (which California could not offer) is that it is a monumental waste of resources. Many businesses are willing to take a risk and hire illegals for menial tasks in order to get the wage benefits, but very few are willing to hire, for example, a new VP of Operations or a lab technician, when they could be picked up and carted off by ICE at any moment. Hiring people for managerial or technical positions requires a substantial investment in resources for a business that goes far beyond the salary offered, and filling such positions with illegals presents significant risk.

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How much more likely are illegal immigrants to leave the country once they get a degree?

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I'm not sure. I would reason that they would be more likely to leave as they cannot get a degree-appropriate job here but are more marketable in their home countries.

Well there are several problems.

a) All citizens who are smart enough should be able to go to university at a reasonable rate.

b) Send the illegals home.

c) Exception: Those who are really the best & brightest the top 0.1% let them go to Uni on a bond. If they don't pay back the bond with x years of work then send the whole family home. If they do give them citizenship and the rest of the family residency.

d) Any state politician putting in benefits to illegal immigrants counter to federal policy is kicked out of office, given twenty years and can never run for office again.

e) Spend the $40 million on scholarships for illegals in their country of origin.

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Illegals vote. Not investigating voter fraud and thereby saying it doesn't exist because they haven't found any is akin to saying the sun never sets while never going outdoors.

All of the arguments against VOTER ID requirements are are a subtle way of encouraging voter fraud. The idea that someone cannot afford a $20 ID or the transportation to go get the card are ludicrous. Even more ludicrous is the Democratic opposition to VOTER ID bills that specifically include provisions to make it easier for poor people to get those IDs.

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How are you guys voting over there? Here you can't vote unless you're a registered citizen on the electoral roll that's in the closest voting center (usually the closest school). If you vote somewhere else, then they need to phone up that center to confirm that you exist. And you will always need to provide ID.

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Originally Posted by Ja'chyra

So if a guy decides to murder someone would you let them go free as you are too late to save the victim?

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Certainly not, to be certain we must also punish thier children. And their children in turn.

Now, PJ pointed out something quite important, that it still doesn't provide a way to citizenship. Simply put, it's a bit of pragmatism vs ideological issues. If an illegal can stay for decades without much difficulty, then it simply starts to be better to legitimize those people than having them create a permanent underclass and continue to shout that they shouldn't be there.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Simply put, it's a bit of pragmatism vs ideological issues. If an illegal can stay for decades without much difficulty, then it simply starts to be better to legitimize those people than having them create a permanent underclass and continue to shout that they shouldn't be there.

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Agreed.