Riots at penn state

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Yes, so there should be some interlude between high school and college where people first move out and live on their own. Don't know how that would work out specifically though. Maybe everyone who had howard zinn inflicted on them in high school can be forced to take remedial American history.

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I agree with you actually. A year between would be good for many, many people. Unfortunately, that is a personal decision for the individual or his/her parents. The former doesn't know any better and just wants to go to Uni so he/she can get a job as soon as possible and the latter probably is afraid of their son/daughter not ending their year of identification at a year and stagnating.

In regards to your Howard Zinn comment...that's pretty worthless to say considering that regular textbooks do a **** job as well. If history is going to be taught right at that level, it should be explained that no representation of history is going to be completely unbiased. Howard Zinn should be taught along with many other​ authors and sources.

EDIT:
THIS IS SOME META LEVEL STUFF HERE:
http://www.amazon.com/Touched-Jerry-...1115713&sr=1-1

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

I agree with you actually. A year between would be good for many, many people. Unfortunately, that is a personal decision for the individual or his/her parents. The former doesn't know any better and just wants to go to Uni so he/she can get a job as soon as possible and the latter probably is afraid of their son/daughter not ending their year of identification at a year and stagnating.

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Maybe the change needs to be done at the high school level. Like a system similar to other countries where students are sorted into different types of high schools.

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In regards to your Howard Zinn comment...that's pretty worthless to say considering that regular textbooks do a **** job as well. If history is going to be taught right at that level, it should be explained that no representation of history is going to be completely unbiased. Howard Zinn should be taught along with many other​ authors and sources.

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Nooooooooooo. Zinn does not come anywhere near the bare minimum professional standard. Doesn't even qualify as history--just arguing for an inane ideology. Real historians are vastly different, regardless of their political leanings. You might as well say that people should watch glenn beck and michael moore for "balance".

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Maybe the change needs to be done at the high school level. Like a system similar to other countries where students are sorted into different types of high schools.
Nooooooooooo. Zinn does not come anywhere near the bare minimum professional standard. Doesn't even qualify as history--just arguing for an inane ideology. Real historians are vastly different, regardless of their political leanings. You might as well say that people should watch glenn beck and michael moore for "balance".

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Don't want this thread to go off topic, so I will PM you.

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

What the hell is a Penn State anyway???

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Good question. From what I've read Penn State University is considered a private college, but the Governor of Pennsylvania has a seat on the board of trustees along with about 6 state affiliated board members that the Governor selects like a public college.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Actually, this Penn State kid pretty much says exactly what I am thinking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXCZKUp45o0

Notice how the kid giving the "rebuttle" pretty much fails at saying anything meaningful at all besides, "Joe Paterno has done so much for this university". Which basically much just means, Paterno has been a good coach and a good role model....up until now.


EDIT: My god, how long was Penn State covering this kind of stuff up?
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/Press/Sandusky-Grand-Jury-Presentment.pdf

And now, this is coming to a boil?

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Joe Paterno could demonstrate some real leadership by publicly telling those knuckleheads that he isn't the victim in this scandal. The University should set up a victim restitution fund and Joe can write the first check.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

He was alerted more than once to the fact that this was going on--the first time in 1998, I believe.

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According to the grand jury report, the 2002 McQueary incident is the only one of which Paterno was informed. The earlier incidents seemed to have gone through other channels - the State College (town) and university police. The other Penn State incident with the janitor was never reported reported to police - only his fellow janitors and supervisor. In a third case reported outside the university via the victim's mother, the university police appeared to be aware of the investigation and requested that the State College police drop, which, for whatever reason, they did. Of the eight victims, those three were the only ones in which the university had some level of involvement via a reported crime.

According known information from the grand jury report, Paterno was in the loop on one and he reported it. This is why many Penn State students, alumi and fans are still supporting him and are rather irrate over his firing. The national outrage over his (in)action is based on 1) assumption that he knew more, and 2) hindsight (Monday morning quarterbacking?) of the full and very graphic testimony of eight victims/incidents of the grand jury report. If further investigation reveals Paterno was involved, knew more and was involved in a cover up, then I will drop my support for him and toss his shattered image into the Funeral Pyre of Disillusionment and Innocence. Until then, he has my full support cultivated from a lifetime of outstanding contributions and service to Penn State and the betterment of its students.

And lest anyone thinks Penn State students stupid, selfless idiots, Penn State THON is an annual event that raises money to fight pediatric cancer. Numbers: 15000 students raised 9.5 MILLION dollars for the 2011 THON. Since its start 39 years ago, they have raised 78 MILLION dollars. Fund raising is year around and culminates in February with a 46 hour dance marathon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYDodY_CWUA&feature=related


We are...Penn State.

They fired Paterno... of course there was going to be riots. The guy is practically a god to those students. I think Paterno did what he was supposed to do. He could have done more and probably should have, but he was definitely scapegoated. The local media also played a role in this- what gets better press? The unknown school administrator who is being charged with perjury because of he involvement? Or bringing down the great Paterno? Incidentally, that's one reason why the media endured the brunt of the rioters' aggression.

Even the DA involved had made a statement about how it was curious that Paterno, who was cooperating with the investigation and was charged with nothing, was fired while the two PSU employees who were charged with wrongdoing were not fired and were having their defense paid for by the university. I'm not a big sports fan, but even I recognize that Paterno is a big reason for PSU's success. I think the board should have handled this much better.

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

According to the grand jury report, the 2002 McQueary incident is the only one of which Paterno was informed. The earlier incidents seemed to have gone through other channels - the State College (town) and university police. The other Penn State incident with the janitor was never reported reported to police - only his fellow janitors and supervisor. In a third case reported outside the university via the victim's mother, the university police appeared to be aware of the investigation and requested that the State College police drop, which, for whatever reason, they did. Of the eight victims, those three were the only ones in which the university had some level of involvement via a reported crime.

According known information from the grand jury report, Paterno was in the loop on one and he reported it. This is why many Penn State students, alumi and fans are still supporting him and are rather irrate over his firing. The national outrage over his (in)action is based on 1) assumption that he knew more, and 2) hindsight (Monday morning quarterbacking?) of the full and very graphic testimony of eight victims/incidents of the grand jury report. If further investigation reveals Paterno was involved, knew more and was involved in a cover up, then I will drop my support for him and toss his shattered image into the Funeral Pyre of Disillusionment and Innocence. Until then, he has my full support cultivated from a lifetime of outstanding contributions and service to Penn State and the betterment of its students.

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Nope, sorry Gregoshi. Paterno doesn't get off the hook for doing his "job" and then leaving it well be. This isn't some allegation about stealing, this about child rape. Sanduski had been exposed for doing this kind of stuff since the late 90s, there is no way that Paterno, the head organizer, would not know all about this. Then for someone to come along and say that they caught Sandusky, mid rape, inside a 10 year old boy, and Paterno does what? He just tells his superior and goes back to his job? This was not some "isolated event" that Paterno could not have made a judgement call about. This was about Sandusky's perversion happening again, after it had already been long known, and long swept under the table by the university. If Paterno was a good man, he should have called the police. What was Paterno thinking when this event was swept under the rug, and Sandusky wasn't charged with anything? When Sandusky was still able to walk among the campus as if nothing had happened? Paterno was an enabler who didn't do the right thing, for whatever lame reason. He deserved to be fired, and to stick up for him because "of all the good he has done for Penn State" is ******* tribalism at its greatest, no better than the 2,000 students tipping over cars, rioting.

Grand jury report showed this pedophile committing heinous crimes since the late 90s, and all these Penn State apologists come out on every forum I frequent talking about Paterno as if he was some scapegoat who had nooooooo idea about what was going on in his own **** football program. It's disgusting.

Everything Gregoshi has said I agree with. As for the rioting... bunch of drunken idiots. It accomplishes nothing and makes Penn State look even worse. CNN did an alright interview with editor of Onward State:

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t2#...e-psu-reax.cnn

As to the above poster, meh, you are entitled to your opinion. It's really not an uncommon one, but I can't say I agree much with. Joe did not witness the incident, and when brought to his attention he reported to his a) boss b) head of campus police. His resignation at the end of the season though was required as he will now be associated with this incident for the rest of his life.As for witness of the crime... he's got some explaining to do. He should have a) beat the living **** out of Sandusky and/or b) reported it immediately to the police.

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Originally Posted by Ice

His resignation at the end of the season though was required as he will now be associated with this incident for the rest of his life.

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He would have been associated with it regardless. Except now, instead of being known as someone who outed a child rapist, he will be known as the man who just kinda accepted the fact that Jerry REALLY liked the kids and just sort of rolled with it.

When you receive information that there is kiddie fiddler in your midst, you do not have a casual chat about it with your boss and then go home about your normal routine. You go to the REAL POLICE and tell them that you have good reason to believe that A KID IS BEING RAPED.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Paterno doesn't get off the hook for doing his "job" and then leaving it well be. This isn't some allegation about stealing, this about child rape.

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But was that clearly communicated to Paterno? Paterno's testimony indicated that he could tell McQueary to greatly bothered by what he saw and what he got from McQueary was Sandusky was "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature" with a young boy. It sounds vague. If that is how McQueary presented it to Paterno, it seems McQueary wasn't sure what he saw from Paterno's perspective. And as for the other cases, how and why would Paterno know of them? Sandusky no longer worked for Penn State and Paterno was not part of the university police department, so why would Paterno be informed, especially since none of the cases ever got to a point where charges were filed?

The Paterno-the-enabler crowd are basing their postition on unsupported conjecture as to what Paterno knew. I'm sure the trials and additional investigations will shed more light on how informed Paterno was of this incident and any others. Until then, it is purely "guilty until proven innocent".

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

But was that clearly communicated to Paterno? Paterno's testimony indicated that he could tell McQueary to greatly bothered by what he saw and what he got from McQueary was Sandusky was "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature" with a young boy. It sounds vague. If that is how McQueary presented it to Paterno, it seems McQueary wasn't sure what he saw from Paterno's perspective. And as for the other cases, how and why would Paterno know of them? Sandusky no longer worked for Penn State and Paterno was not part of the university police department, so why would Paterno be informed, especially since none of the cases ever got to a point where charges were filed?

The Paterno-the-enabler crowd are basing their postition on unsupported conjecture as to what Paterno knew. I'm sure the trials and additional investigations will shed more light on how informed Paterno was of this incident and any others. Until then, it is purely "guilty until proven innocent".

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Sandusky was still present at the school. If Sandusky was able to hang out in the showers, how did this man escape Paterno's eye and review? Why did Paterno not get suspicious at a man who was retired, still hanging around the showers and the area?

Paterno worked at Penn State for 60 years. Sandusky worked there for 30 and left around 1999 when the first allegations and victims came about. How did Paterno have his head so far up his ***, that he knew absolutely nothing about one of his own coaches being a pedophile?

Now you want to tell me that "fondling or something of a sexual nature" is too vague to act on? Are you telling me, that if someone gave you the notion that there might be a child getting sexually abused, that you would do the bare minimum in following up on that? This a report from a 28 year old graduate assistant. This was not somebody young with no life experience, this not one of the players whose motivations or interpretation skills could be questioned. A full fledged adult claimed to have seen a child being sexually handled, and Paterno passed the buck and did nothing to follow up on what is one of the most serious crimes we could talk about.

For such a role model, Paterno seems to either be a willful participant or the biggest, most ignorant, oblivious man ever to run a football program.

By the way, I would like your thoughts on what Paterno knew, considering this is from the bottom of page 8 on the Grand Jury report:

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Schults testified that he was called to a meeting with Joe Paterno and Tim Curley, in which Paterno reported "disturbing" and "inappropriate" conduct in the shower by Sandusky upon a young boy, as reported
by a student or graduate student.

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"Disturbing" and "inappropriate" towards a 10 year old boy. Oh well, might be nothing.

I'm baffled at the argument you guys are making. As you say, even accepting his version of the story, he was told that sandusky was "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature" with a young boy by someone who was greatly bothered by what he saw. Why do you dismiss that as "it sounds vague"? Jesus.

To acin:
And Paterno, who was not a witness to the act, reported it to the head of the university police and the atheletic director. Was Paterno supposed to start his own investigation to insure that the head of the university police did his job?

As for how could Paterno not know one of his coaches was a pedophile, the two times Sandusky was caught in the act it was after hours when Sandusky thought no one was around. How come none of his players or the other coaches knew? Paterno was a great football coach, but far from All-Knowing and All-Seeing.

You have already convicted him on charges not made against him, so there is nothing else I can say to change that. I'll wait for the facts before passing judgement.

To Sasaki:
If McQueary told Paterno he saw anal sex, I think there would be little doubt as to what he saw. If all he could manage to tell Paterno was "fondling or something of a sexual nature", that sure sounds to me like McQueary wasn't sure exactly what he saw. Unfortunately, the grand jury report does not delve into what McQueary said he told Paterno, but the grand jury did find McQueary's testimony very credible, but not Curley's or Shultz's, hence the perjury charges against them. The conclusion based upon this is that Paterno's testimony must have had an air of credibility to the grand jury.

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

And Paterno, who was not a witness to the act, reported it to the head of the university police and the atheletic director. Was Paterno supposed to start his own investigation to insure that the head of the university police did his job?

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You would really have done the same thing, huh.

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

And Paterno, who was not a witness to the act, reported it to the head of the university police and the atheletic director. Was Paterno supposed to start his own investigation to insure that the head of the university police did his job?

As for how could Paterno not know one of his coaches was a pedophile, the two times Sandusky was caught in the act it was after hours when Sandusky thought no one was around. How come none of his players or the other coaches knew? Paterno was a great football coach, but far from All-Knowing and All-Seeing.

You have already convicted him on charges not made against him, so there is nothing else I can say to change that. I'll wait for the facts before passing judgement.

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When nothing had been done regarding Sandusky, Paterno had the moral obligation to contact the police. Yes, he should have started his own investigation by contacting people who don't have the incentive to cover the situation up.

By the end of the "internal investigation" Paterno must have known about the decision to take away Sandusky's key. Why would they do this, if it was a baseless accusation? There is so much doubt in that situation, that any reasonable person would have said, hold on, I see some red flags here, I don't think something is right here. Sandusky is punished but isn't accused or tried? Why? The graduate student to Paterno was very concerned and yet it turned out to be nothing?

You are waiting for the facts, because the facts that have already come out are not in your favor. As far as I am concerned you waiting to pass judgement until a jury's decision is like asking for everyone to reserve judgement on O.J. Simpson until the trial is over.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Actually, this Penn State kid pretty much says exactly what I am thinking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXCZKUp45o0

Notice how the kid giving the "rebuttle" pretty much fails at saying anything meaningful at all besides, "Joe Paterno has done so much for this university". Which basically much just means, Paterno has been a good coach and a good role model....up until now.


EDIT: My god, how long was Penn State covering this kind of stuff up?
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/Press/Sandusky-Grand-Jury-Presentment.pdf

And now, this is coming to a boil?

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Enough of reading that. Did it really take six victims before someone called the police?

I'm really sad that Gregoshi is splitting hairs and giving into technicalities.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

I'm really sad that Gregoshi is splitting hairs and giving into technicalities.

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Blind loyalty vs a witch hunt. Pick your side. And I am equally sad that so many people are giving in to emotion and assumptions based on hindsight rather than what was known at the time by whom.

My only stance on this is that the grand jury is not a trial. It is not a complete investigation. I'm not giving into technicalities, I'm (trying) to base my current opinion on what is in the grand jury report, not assumptions based on what is not. We are not privy to any testimony other than summaries and quoted phrases in the report. We are not privy to the delivery of those words that caused the grand jury to deem McQueary's testimony as credible while Curley and Shultz were deemed not credible and resulting in pejury charges against them. There are no such charge against Paterno. Here I am the one making an assumption based on something that is not in the report, but it seems fairly safe that the grand jury had no problems with Paterno's testimony.

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Originally Posted by acin

As far as I am concerned you waiting to pass judgement until a jury's decision is like asking for everyone to reserve judgement on O.J. Simpson until the trial is over.

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Excuse me, but I believe Sandusky is the criminal and I'm not reserving judgement on him even though I looked at Sandusky almost as favourably as I do Paterno before all this happened. Remember, Paterno is only accused of a "moral failing" by officials. You and the others are the ones putting Paterno in the white SUV with Sandusky.

I've wasted enough time the past couple of days on this useless arguing. It is obvious neither of us will budge at the present. You can continue to stack wood to burn the witch with the wart and false nose and I'll continue to wear my loyalty blinders until (and IF) it is shown that the "witch" does weigh as much as a duck (yes, that is a Monty Python reference).

Paterno did the bare minimum he had to in order to cover his backside.

Yellow. Absolutely yellow

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Paterno did the bare minimum he had to in order to cover his backside.

Yellow. Absolutely yellow

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This is my contention. Doing the absolute minimum in the face of possible child abuse based on someone's standing in the community is inexcusable.

Greg, there is no line in the sand until someone draws one. People should not be upset that a person got fired, they should be more upset that others did not.

Paterno's influence and reach is what led to him being fired. Regardless of what McQueary told him and how much he knew from other investigations, Paterno had way too much control and power and none of the administrators were going to interfere. Back in 2003(?) they wanted him gone when the team was struggling, and JoePa basically gave them the finger. Paterno did the legally correct thing in reporting what McQueary told him to his "supervisor", which covers his behind. The problem is that everyone knew he did not really have a supervisor at Penn State. If Paterno had informed non-PSU authorities, he would probably still be coaching, keeping it internal just reeks of impropriety (even if none actually exists). All his supporters go on about what he's done for PSU and how much he does, but that is the problem. He was Penn State, and directly responsible or not, this happened right under his nose in an environment he controlled. Spanier had to go too, clean sweep, new beginning, yada, yada, yada.

McQueary still has a job, but this may be due to the whistleblower law. My guess is he's gone soon, "on his own volition". Curley and Schultz are in deep trouble, and if Paterno did order a cover-up, their testimony will be key. But my hope is that JoePa was just clueless about the whole thing.

Fun note: The Centre County DA at the time of the '98 reports went missing under mysterious circumstances in 2005. I love PA. :yes:

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Originally Posted by drone

Spanier had to go too, clean sweep, new beginning, yada, yada, yada.

McQueary still has a job, but this may be due to the whistleblower law. My guess is he's gone soon, "on his own volition". Curley and Schultz are in deep trouble, and if Paterno did order a cover-up, their testimony will be key. But my hope is that JoePa was just clueless about the whole thing.

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Yeah, I could buy the whole "clean sweep" argument were it not for Curley and Schultz not being fired.... Instead, they're firing the cooperating witness and defending the ones charged with perjury. That's not very good optics, imo.

I think Schultz has resigned already. I'm not sure why Curley is still on, it might be a legal thing pending the outcome of the perjury charge.

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Originally Posted by drone

But my hope is that JoePa was just clueless about the whole thing.

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I really do believe this sentiment should be echoed by everyone.
Too many seem to wish for a negative outcome, confirming their outrage.

Yet, the man seems to have lived his life honestly and to have been an asset to his community.
Why would one impatiently condemn him and hope for anything else than proof which would exonerate him? :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Nowake

Why would one impatiently condemn him and hope for anything else than proof which would exonerate him?

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Because it all looks really, REALLY bad for him.

Well, look, my argument is this:


The life of many a human being is not really a gain for society. And then there are those whom you know to be corrupt, hypocrite, immoral, spineless, callous and about who one can’t resist to think sometimes that, should they be caught with anything, the community would be better off.


Yet this man had such a positive impact for his whole life up to this point.
So, while you conduct the investigation very thoroughly and objectively, you should hope you’ll find him not guilty, because you really want to reintegrate him in the society which benefited so much from his work.
However, the public has already driven this to the point where, even if cleared of all charges, he is still lost to his community for good and will remain ostracized.
It’s not right.

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Originally Posted by Nowake

Well, look, my argument is this:


The life of many a human being is not really a gain for society. And then there are those whom you know to be corrupt, hypocrite, immoral, spineless, callous and about who one can’t resist to think sometimes that, should they be caught with anything, the community would be better off.


Yet this man had such a positive impact for his whole life up to this point.
So, while you conduct the investigation very thoroughly and objectively, you should hope you’ll find him not guilty, because you really want to reintegrate him in the society which benefited so much from his work.
However, the public has already driven this to the point where, even if cleared of all charges, he is still lost to his community for good and will remain ostracized.
It’s not right.

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That's probably what he thought about Sandusky.

How does that go? “Wait, I don’t even...”
That is, don’t split my assertion by leaving behind the boldfaced part where I write that one absolutely has to conduct the investigation very thoroughly and objectively.
That’s why I put it there :tired:

Fantastic article in Grantland that perfectly describes the whole scandal and the aftermath:

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If that blights Joe Paterno's declining years, that's too bad. If that takes a chunk out of the endowment, hold a damn bake sale. If that means that Penn State spends some time being known as the university where a child got raped, that's what happens when you're a university where a child got raped. Any sympathy for this institution went down the drain in the shower room in the Lasch Building. There's nothing that can happen to the university, or to the people sunk up to their eyeballs in this incredible moral quagmire, that's worse than what happened to the children who got raped at Penn State. Good Lord, people, get up off your knees and get over yourselves.

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A) surely a crime of child rape would have to be reported to external (real) cops?
It's like a child molester priest only being investigated internally by the organization.

B) teaching kids to play a game is not such a great service to the community. It is a game for entertainment. It is not community service in the form of soup kitchens, charity, medical service or anything that saves lives it is merely teaching kids for the modern circus.

C) even if you lead a great life you get branded with your lowest act.

I cannot fathom the idea that anyone can say this head coach performed his duty of care beyond going through the minimum paperwork. Put your kid in the victims shoes and tell me that the coach did everything in his power to have the situation investigated.

Put it this way that lack of energetic performance on the playing field would get a player dropped. Going through the motions is not the same as being a high performer. Coaches have a duty of care and a head coach also has to ensure he is providing a safe operating environment for all under his care.

One cannot attribute all the victories and none of the responsibilities. His football wins, hence the buck stops with him. He should have reported the issue for external investigation to provide transparency in a timely manner.

joepa should have been fired years ago. his stats suck. 46 years with a single organization and only two championships? pathetic. Most winningest coach doesnt mean jack if you have been a coach for 46 freaking years......