What are finals compared to M2:TW?
Printable View
What are finals compared to M2:TW?
okay, I've got it up and running, will have to check on it in a while.
Okay, I have got a save that I think will work quite well for a Hungarian game.
Feel free to download and take a look at the save here.
If I get at least 3 players interested in doing a Hungarian game off that save, I will make a draft of the rules for people to look over.
Here are my ideas about rules and setting so far.
http://www.cai.org/files/images/teac.../hungary-1.jpg
I am considering is tracking each players funds separately. They will receive income equal to whatever settlement they own (are duke or whatever of), and pay for whatever forces they control, starting with whatever is literally inside their province. Each player would declare their expenses, and the sum income of their provinces, and keep a tab of their funds each time they submit their save. Players who go into debt may risk having soldiers in their pay rebel, depending no the amount and length of the dept.
Any characters without a province may be adopted by another player, who will pay all of their expenses. If no player adopts them, they will have no income, and will have to earn a title if they wish to support troops. They may still be put in charge of troops if another player allows it.
Currently, every character but one control's a province, and the King controls two. This leftover character would count as "adopted" by the King (although the King player may cancel this if he wishes), and could be given control of either of the two provinces the King controls if the King wishes it so.
As for civil wars, I will attempt to simulate civil wars at appropriate times through the use of rebel armies, but in the event of player vs. player battles, I think I will attempt to use a "tabletop game" version of the battle, where I send players involved a map, and then send me their deployment, and general orders for the battle. I would then play out the battle as fairly as possible, and declare a winner.
As for the setting, the game is starting in 1222, the year Hungarian nobles historically forced the King to sign the Golden Bull. This was the result of a short uprising, and effectively gave the Hungarian nobility much greater freedom from the King. I intend to create several rebel armies in Hungarian lands to represent the leftovers of this revolt, and the player characters represent appeased, although not necessarily happy, nobles who have re-aligned with the King now that he has signed this bull.
Also significant, Hungary has just recently liberated Constantinople from the Cuman Khanate, part of their long war with the Pagan nation. The city is currently under de-facto ownership of the King, as the general who captured the city died in the siege without leaving a clear heir, but it is a prize that is certainly worth argument for. I hope that this, the remnants of the civil war, and the war with the Cumans should provide plenty to keep people busy right from the start.
@Night All is well, but I couldn't get the player vs player battle thing. Could you explain more about it?
I think he is thinking tabletop battles like they were played out in previous RPG games. For example The Battle of the Iron Bridge from LotR(Last of the Romans).
Looks and sounds great NB, count me in!
I like the starting position - we have a decent income, we're only at war with one neighbouring faction but we have a couple of precarious and valuable outposts in Zagreb and Constantinople, we're in decent nick with the Pope and we have some sizable armies to play with. My only concern is that we only have two family members, so we'd have to be really careful in case we suddenly became extinct...
Looking it it more closely, I think what I was trying to say might be a bit too complicated and time consuming. Instead, I propose resolving player vs. player battles as follows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezilkannan
Lets say there are two player led armies which wish to fight.
army A is composed of
1 general (G)
1 unit of knights (K)
2 units of horse archer (H)
1 ~ half unit of horse archer (h)
4 units of spear militia (S)
1 ~ half unit of spear militia (s)
2 units of archers (A)
and 1 catapult (C)
the player of army A would send me a pm of his deployment, with EEEEE representing the general location of the enemy army.
(letters represent units, and may be whatever the players choose to assign those units, as long as it is a single character)
lets say player A sent me this as his deployment.
EEEEEEEEEEE
SSSS K HHh
s CAA G
He is telling me that he is deploying his spear militia opposite his opponent, extra thick on the left, with his knights and horse archers off to the right, and archers and catapult behind his spear men.
He might also include something like. "The spear line holds while the knights engage enemy cavalry and horse archers try to get behind opponent."
Player B would send me similar instructions.
I would then, based on these deployment, and the player orders, attempt to play out the battle as accurately as possible. It would not be the most accurate system, but there really isn't any good way to deal with PvP as far as I know, and my experience with historical battles and war games should give me at least a semblance of an ability to fairly decide the outcome.
If players wish, and if PvP is a reasonably rare occurrence, we could do it in the more complex style of those previous hotseats.
Hmmm... Of course PvP battles as such can be very historically accurate. Espeicially if you include the baggage train, camp site, camp followers etc. Battles for the most part were rare though, during the period. Armies would do a lot more of sitting around or maneuvering, and a lot less of dying. Not that there were no exceptions however. But such battles would eliminate the battle map advantage of certain setups.
In a MP battle the guy with 19 stacks of Hungarian Nobles would curbstomp that stack you described, even tough IRL such horsemen would not be effective at breaking a larger, well rounded army.
How about we just do it the good ol' fashioned way? We roll a die at ivnisible castle or something (1d2) and just go with that. Whomever gets "heads" gets to lead the battle.
That is another possible option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
Bit too random for my liking. And there are dice rolls and terrain in the PvP battles which were fought in the old RPGs. They seemed to work pretty well, with detailed orders submitted by both sides at the start and at key points in the battle. Zim has more experience of them than I have but I think there was a fairly well developed and road tested rule set for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
I certainly think they add something really special to the RPG PvP concept which you just wouldn't get by essentially flipping a coin and then massacring the AI.
The other option which hasn't been discussed is to fight a MP battle and then make the in-game adjustments to reflect the outcome. While this might be hard to arrange for every battle it could be done for the big decisive ones.
I doubt that there would be that many PvP battles so that we can't use MP to fight them out.
Yet another option!Quote:
Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey
Multi-player battles would be best for accuracy, perhaps that can be the ideal, but if players are unable to do so within a reasonable time frame one of the other methods would be used.
In other words, if convenient players will fight it out in MP, otherwise, we will use the board gaem or die roll, depending on what people prefer.
It's nigh-on-impossible for me to get enough time on a fixed date and hour when someone in the USA or Australia will be up. Board game sounds good though, I read the account of the end for that RPG which Cecil wanted the Sigismunt von Mahren set for. It seems really detailed and nice.
Myth, you should read the Cataclysm of KotR - one of the best things that ever occurred in the Throne Room!
So, I believe the following people are wanting to join this game, please correct me if I am wrong.
Phonicsmonkey
Zim
The King
Myth
Ezilkannan
That should be a good number to get started, so I will start working on the rules tonight.
I'm interested. So the mod is Stainless Steel 6.4? Need to download it though..
yes, ss 6.4
Here is a basic set of rules for the game. I have not yet gone into in-context rules for the game (offices, laws, etc...). For those, I was hoping that people with more experience in RPG games might help me come up with good ones. I also thought it might be fun to allow them to be generated to some degree in context.
The concept of actively determining how the political structure works in context is a possibility, especially since this is a period of some amount of political reform in Hungary (with the passing of the Golden Bull), but it would be good to have some general structure lain out first.
Any feedback is appreciated!
Game Rules
1. Mod and Game Settings
1.1 Stainless Steel 6.4
1.1a Early Era Campaign
1.1b Savage Ai
1.1c BYG’s Grim Reality II
1.2 Very Hard Battles
1.3 Very Hard Campaign
1.4 Manage all Settlements
1.5 Defensive Battles Enabled
1.6 Battle Timer On
1.7 Hotseat Game
2. General Rules
2.1 Transported units may not exceed 2 times the number of ships in the fleet
2.2 “Merchant forts” may not be used
2.3 Agents may be destroyed by surrounding them with armies (represents extensive military operation to root out and kill the agent. Be warned, the GM shall ensure that other factions react to this as a hostile action
2.4 Do not exploit the naval movement bug
3. The Game Master
3.1 Nightbringer is the Game Master (GM)
3.2 If Nightbringer can no longer be the GM, or if >50% of the players vote for him to step down, a new GM may be chosen by player vote
3.3 The GM will not take control of a character
3.4 The GM has the right to (and likely will) exert any amount of control deemed appropriate over non-player factions in the game
4. The Save
4.1 Only the GM may end the turn, unless permission is specifically given to a player.
4.2 The save shall be named in the following format: game name_turn #_# of players who have played turn
4.3 Players shall have 48 hours to player their turn after the save has been uploaded
4.4 The GM shall have 24 hours after this to return the save to the players
4.5 A player shall have 24 hours to play any defensive battles
4.6 After playing a defensive battle, the player must save the game immediately and return the save to the GM
4.6a Due to the lack of turn scrolls, a faction’s turn may begin after a defensive battle, if this is the case, the player should not take any action or look at this faction’s position. Doing so will only decrease that player’s enjoyment of the game.
Player Rules
5. Role-play
5.1 Players are encouraged, but not required, to write battle reports and other in context (IC) stories
5.2 Players should post only IC posts in IC threads
5.3 Players should post only out of context (OOC) posts in OOC threads
5.4 Lies and other “immoral actions” performed IC should not be held against the player, and should be regarded as purely the action of their character
6. Battles
6.1 Players should play out all battles since auto resolve may be used to exploit horse archer armies, or prevent general death
6.2 Players should refrain from using Ai exploits as much as possible, this will not be enforced, but using exploits will only serve to break player immersion in the game
7. Finances
7.1 The faction money total should be ignored, if more money is required to meet individual finances, the GM shall add it
7.2 No money is owned by the faction
7.3 Every character has a personal supply of money
7.4 A character’s money supply is determined as such
7.4a At the beginning of the game, each character starts with 1000 florins plus the displayed combined income of any provinces they own.
7.4b Any new character will start with 1000 florins
7.4c During the turn, the cost of any unit, ship, agent, or building recruited/constructed by a character will be deducted from that characters funds
7.4d At the end of every turn, the total upkeep of all units, ships, and agents a character owns and the cost of any deals/agreements will be deducted from that character’s funds
7.4e At the end of every turn, the total income from all provinces a character owns, the income from any merchants that character owns, and their income from any deals/agreements will be added to that character’s funds
7.4f The King also adds the King’s purse to their income
7.4f If a character’s funds would drop into the negative they instead stay at zero
7.7 If a player fails to deliver a report, the GM will do it for them, but repeated offence may be grounds for expulsion from the game
7.8 Each player must declare where their money is kept, this may be either a province or with their character, this location may be changed at the end of any turn (unless it is within a besieged province)
7.9 If the province where a character keeps their money belongs to another player, that player may seize the entire sum whenever desired
7.10 If the province where a character keeps their money is captured by an enemy faction, 75% of the money is lots, while the other 25% is allocated to a new location by that character’s player
7.11 If a character who is keeping their money with them is defeated in battle, 50% of their money is lost.
7.12 Any financial deals with other factions must be paid by characters, but the expenses can be divided as desired between characters.
7.13 If a character refuses to pay their part of a deal with another faction, the GM will ensure that the faction responds appropriately to the lack of payment.
7.14 Any character may make private deals with other factions through the GM
7.15 Characters may transfer money between each-other as desired according to the following rules
7.15a The player giving money deducts the transferred money from their funds in their end of turn financial report
7.16b The player who is receiving money adds that to their income in their end of turn financial report
7.16c This means that the receiving player is not able to see this money till their next turn
7.16 Each player is responsible for delivering an accurate report of their finances to the GM every turn, either in private or in public when they post the save
8. Property
8.1 Nothing is owned by the faction
8.2 Every province, unit, ship, and agent is owned by a single character
8.2a Anything owned by a character may only be controlled by that character’s player, unless that player gives express permission to another
8.3 Provinces, units, ships, and agents will be allocated to characters at the start of the game by the GM
8.4 Units, agents, ships, and buildings may only be recruited/built in a province by the owner of that province, from that character’s personal funds
8.5 Units, agents, and ships recruited in a province are owned by that province’s owner
8.5a Any recruited, adopted, or born generals become the property their adoptee, recruiter, or oldest male relative, or of the King if this is not possible to determine, until they are controlled by a player
8.6 The owner of a province may allow another character to recruit/build in his province, or to take ownership of units built in that province
8.7 A character may only recruit/build as much as he has funds to pay for
8.8 A character may only recruit a number of agents equal to the number his provinces support (i.e., a character owning 1 province with 1 church may only recruit a single priest)
8.9 Each player is responsible for keeping track of which units, agents, ships, and provinces belong to him/her, any disputes will be resolved by GM decree
8.10 The owner of any unit, ship, or agent, is responsible for paying the upkeep of that unit/ship/agent
8.11 If the owner is unable to pay the upkeep for units during a turn, the GM has the right to take any action with these units between turns, and may remove or give ownership of the unit/ship/agent as wished
8.12 The owner of any unit, ship, agent, or province may transfer that property to another player in their end of turn financial report, as per the rules for money transfer
8.13 Any new settlements conquered become property of the character whose troops (or agent, if bribe) conquered this settlement
8.14 Any bribed troops become the property of that diplomat’s owner
8.15 Princesses are automatically the property (in game rules only, not in an ethical sense) of their oldest male relative, or of the King if this is not possible to determine.
Great except the BGR-II part. SS has a titles as ancillaries system, you can use the console to add or remove them as you like it. You can also wipe/add traits, I suggest allowing the players to remove one trait from their chosen character and to allow them to get traits based on their IC actions.
Sure, I can allow that (traits modification), but what is wrong with BGR-II?Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
If players don't want it, I believe simply not ticking it will cause it to go away.
ya, I too think that BGR-II is not necessary here.
So, a few questions for the players, which PvP system would you like, and do you want to use BGR, so far it seems like the latter is a no, but the former is unclear.
Also, I think that I should increase the time for the GM to return the save to 48 hours, since 24 might be a bit unrealistic. I will attempt to do it as quickly as possible though.
Also, what would people like to do with non-player controlled characters, as in, the generals + family members that are not claimed by anyone at the start. New ones during the game go to the person who birthed/adopted them, but that is not possible with the starting ones.
Should they go to the king to control? to their nearest older relative? to the GM? what do you think?
Hungary in SS? Sounds like fun.
I like most forms of pvp. Tabletop is fun, especially for really big battles. I also now have a connection that can handle regular mp battles when needed.
I'd say just let the gm control npcs, or just have them hang around their spawning settlements until they get a player.
So for pvp battles we will do the following
Normal PvP battles should be fought as online multiplayer battles, if one or more players is unable to do this, if there are especially large battles (more than two armies), or if all players vote to do so, the battle may be fought in one of the following two ways.
1. Tabletop battle, as seen in previous M2TW games.
2. Abbreviated Tabletop battle (like the above, but with only one "turn.")
As for the extra NPCs, I will control them, but they will be pretty passive.
So what do everyone want the laws and titles of the Realm to be? I can try to come up with some on my own, but I would really appreciate some player feedback on this.
I thought the V&V rules were pretty good with a couple of things we could tighten up such as:
- clearer distinction between IC and OOC rules and the abilities of players/characters to ignore or disobey 'IC' rules, punishments or consequences thereof
- need rules to determine which character takes precedence if they both try to do the same thing on the same turn (think Leo and Lothar at Milan)
- some kind of collective tax for communal defence capability (a la the Reichsmarschall)
I'd appreciate it if we figured out a way to make it more similar to real life feudalism. All the land belongs to the king, who then hands it down to Dukes who have vassal lords, who hand it down to vassal knights, who hand it down to the peasants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey
I agree very strongly with the first point. I feel it is very important that there is a clear line between these two, and to make it clear that no breaking of IC rules will have any consequence for the player, only for the character. I also feel that punishments for breaking IC rules should be largely player generated. Breaking an IC law that a Duke is not to start a war with an outside faction should not have GM action involved, it should be up to the other characters, and especially the King, to impose punishments on that player.
As for the laws themselves, I feel that they should be largely player generated as well. A basic structure is needed at the start, and a clear definition of the existing titles, but if players wish to create a new title, or create a new law, I want that to be entirely feasible, and actually encouraged, by the rules.
I think for the basic structure, it should certainly be feudal, but it is also important to me to reflect the increased freedom of the nobles granted by the Golden Bull.
For reference, here is a link to the text of the Golden Bull
It contains some lines that could work quite well as direct IC laws.
http://books.google.com/books?id=W80...ungary&f=false
And here are some of the main points of the Bull, for easier reading.
I. No nobleman may be arrested (in an unfair way), nor can he be oppressed by the desire of any higher power.
II. The Noblemen are declared to be exempt from the payment of taxes, nor will money be collected from their treasures. Neither will their residences be occupied, nor their villages, and these may only be visited by those who have been invited. No taxes will be levied on the Church.
III. If any nobleman dies without a male heir, his daughter will receive a quarter of his possessions; the remainder of his property shall be given to others, but if, as a result of their deaths, they cannot take possession of these properites, then these properties shall pass into the hands of their closest living relative; if this is not possible, then the King shall inherit them.
IV. If the King wishes to send his armies outside of the Kingdom the Noblemen will not be under obligation to go with him, if the monarch doesn't pay them. However if an invading army enters in the Kingdom, all of them must serve to expel it.
VII. The Hungarian Palatine may judge everyone in the Kingdom without any differentiation; but he cannot take try any nobleman without the King's approval.
VIII. If foreigners arrive in the Kingdom, they must not receive honors and public positions without the Royal Council's approval.
XI. Hungarian properties cannot be given to foreigners.
XXVI. No title or public charge can be inherited.
XVI. No-one, besides the Hungarian Palatine, the governors of Croatia and Slavonia, the King and the Queen Consort, can have more than one title or honor.
XXIV. Nor Jew or Ismaelite, can hold a public position (job). The Nobles of the Chamber, those working with monies, tax collectors and toll-keepers may only be Hungarian noblemen.
XXX. In order for this document to be lawful, and put into use for the future, seven copies, each sealed with the Golden Seal, will be made of it. The first will be sent to the Pope, the second to the Knights of Saint John, the third to the Templar Knights, the fourth to the King, the fifth to the archbishop of Esztergom, the sixth to the Archbishop of Kalocsa and the seventh to the Hungarian Palatine, so that these writings won't be falsified or confused.
From this, I see one important title.
The Palatine
They were the principal manager of the King's properties, and a judge of legal matters, and could be property owners on their own.
They would be chosen by the King. Aside from being a high honor, this position would allow the character to be the final decider in all IC legal matters. However, they would only have the right to impose penalties on the nobility with the explicit permission of the King.
Well now that the holidays are winding down, how would people like to get the game started with the rules posted so far, and we can add and modify as things come up.
This save should work so people who are interested should take a look and make a post of the character they are interested in. As far as settlements are concerned, the character with the ancillary for a settlement owns that settlement, and the King owns Constantinople. The one character who does not own a settlement is a vassal of the king.
Also, anyone have suggestions for a name?
I'd be interested in playing this, if there are any spots still open. I'm new to this forum, but I've be playing Total War for years and I've played a couple of these types of game before.
I have a question regarding SS 6.4. It looks like I have to download 6.3 install it and then patch it with 6.4, is that correct? Is SS 6.4 compatible with other mods or do I need to uninstall Broken Crescent first?
As for a name, perhaps "Lords of the Danube"?