Evolution and the soul...

No idea what you said but because I am writing this from an iPad I just can't, browser isn't functioning

Ah, works now, do NOT buy an iPad it's terrible it just doesn't work

I think this is a really interesting topic - it's not one I have an answer for.

A better way of asking the question might be - so Dolphins have souls, and if so was there a Dolphin Jesus?

The only answer I have is, we don't know because we can't talk to Dolphins.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Oh I am with you there. It's a bit silly to ask religious people to explain themselves, people should just leave them be, why do they insist on proving they are wrong anyway. What good does it do, nothing at all.

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Off topic I know but you will find most Athiests would be happy to leave Religion to the Religious, if only the Religious would butt out of Science and Politics and stick to the Spiritual...

Since that doesn't seem likely to happen any-time soon you are going to find Atheists and Secularists stepping in from time to time to undermine any "faith" based pseudo science or Political gambit...

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Originally Posted by Sir Moody

Off topic I know but you will find most Athiests would be happy to leave Religion to the Religious, if only the Religious would butt out of Science and Politics and stick to the Spiritual...

Since that doesn't seem likely to happen any-time soon you are going to find Atheists and Secularists stepping in from time to time to undermine any "faith" based pseudo science or Political gambit...

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Yeah but I find atheists to be borderline missionary at times, what's their issue if someone believes in something, why would I harm them in any way long as if I don't get harmed myself. I have no respect for religion but good manners I will always return

Big bang was discovered by a Jesuit... Yet another reason to like Belgium.

Science and religion can coexist as long as all earthly beings no matter their rank realize they aren't infallible.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

No idea what you said but because I am writing this from an iPad I just can't, browser isn't functioning

Ah, works now, do NOT buy an iPad it's terrible it just doesn't work

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I've been writing my replies for years now on an iPhone... That's why I've decreased my number of smilies as they are hard to deploy from a phone.

when I said "butt out of Science and Politics" I think you may have taken me a bit too literally - I was referring to the Religious groups like Answers in Genesis who seem determined to undermine good Science with babbling pseudo science and out right lies

I was not suggesting that Religious people couldnt be scientists

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Originally Posted by Sir Moody

when I said "butt out of Science and Politics" I think you may have taken me a bit too literally - I was referring to the Religious groups like Answers in Genesis who seem determined to undermine good Science with babbling pseudo science and out right lies

I was not suggesting that Religious people couldnt be scientists

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Haven't read it all but have seen enough, yes pretty damn insane

I don't think evolution works the way you think it does.

but in any event here is the catholic chruchs stance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution

Catholics would probably argue the soul is intrinsic due to original sin, it was always there whether we knew it or not.

Some say that the lack of Catholism was what proved to be a rationalised society, ask CA he's the expert

Not trying to make a point as such, but just throwing it out there that neanderthals are nowhere near the closest-related non-humans to have human-like burial rituals.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr

Not trying to make a point as such, but just throwing it out there that neanderthals are nowhere near the closest-related non-humans to have human-like burial rituals.

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I'm sure that Lord Ganesha has something special in store for them.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr

Not trying to make a point as such, but just throwing it out there that neanderthals are nowhere near the closest-related non-humans to have human-like burial rituals.

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I was about to get to that in time ;)

I do find the idea of "when did it start" extremely interesting though. I mean, to me it's all bogus of course, but what I find interesting is the intellectual skipping one would have to do to believe in evolution AND the christian god.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

The only answer I have is, we don't know because we can't talk to Dolphins.

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Long conversations still prove a bit tricky, but work is well under way in this field. Also, we can communicate (in writing, no less) with Bonobos, that is: we can teach them how to communicate with us.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Long conversations still prove a bit tricky, but work is well under way in this field. Also, we can communicate (in writing, no less) with Bonobos, that is: we can teach them how to communicate with us.

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Been reading too much van der Waal lately?

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Long conversations still prove a bit tricky, but work is well under way in this field. Also, we can communicate (in writing, no less) with Bonobos, that is: we can teach them how to communicate with us.

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We're nowhere near the level of being able to discuss metaphysics or philosophy with Dolphins though - "more fish?" and "are you sad" are big jumps, but they don't address the core questions of life.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

We're nowhere near the level of being able to discuss metaphysics or philosophy with Dolphins though - "more fish?" and "are you sad" are big jumps, but they don't address the core questions of life.

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Society though, I am on to TA I know what book he read, must have a new girlfriend who just started studying psychology, well done TA

When did our ancestors become humans? When does a growing collection of grains of sand become a heap? When does a child become an adult? When does a fertilized egg become a person? Lots of transitions have fuzzy boundaries, and assigning a definite point of change is difficult if not impossible. As far as the Mormon take on this, it's not a big point of doctrine what happens to animals after death, so I can by no means claim to be an expert, but my understanding is that we believe all animals (and perhaps all living things?) have souls and existed spiritually before they existed physically, and will continue to exist eternally. Where exactly dinosaurs (for instance) would end up compared to humans I have no idea.

Ajax

In my faith, it's believed that our religious knowledge is incomplete; we don't know everything there is to know about God, etc. I think the OP raises a really interesting question and I've wondered the same thing myself, especially when it comes to human evolution. But it doesn't pose an intellectual problem for me, because I don't expect my religion to answer every question.

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Originally Posted by Tuuvi

In my faith, it's believed that our religious knowledge is incomplete; we don't know everything there is to know about God, etc. I think the OP raises a really interesting question and I've wondered the same thing myself, especially when it comes to human evolution. But it doesn't pose an intellectual problem for me, because I don't expect my religion to answer every question.

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You what

I do not believe in any of these Religious Tales...
However, I vaguely remember from my University (History of Religions) that the Neanderthals, having never heard of the words of Christ will be in Heaven as they couldn't reject his teaching. Same for born before Christ or the one who never heard of Him. This include Aliens, in case they are some somewhere (mostly probable) and they never heard of Christ (even more probable)...

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Originally Posted by Sir Moody

when I said "butt out of Science and Politics" I think you may have taken me a bit too literally - I was referring to the Religious groups like Answers in Genesis who seem determined to undermine good Science with babbling pseudo science and out right lies

I was not suggesting that Religious people couldnt be scientists

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its what happens when people ask questions such as "prove that God exists scientifically"

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Originally Posted by Brenus

However, I vaguely remember from my University (History of Religions) that the Neanderthals, having never heard of the words of Christ will be in Heaven as they couldn't reject his teaching. Same for born before Christ or the one who never heard of Him. This include Aliens, in case they are some somewhere (mostly probable) and they never heard of Christ (even more probable)...

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Good points... which brings us the question: How universal was Christ's atonement?
This is a disputed point in Christianity. Some hold to the absolute universal, as in every world created by God, is under the umberella of Christ's grace (Mormonism) to Calvinistic predeterminated selected grace. Only those chosen from the beginning will be saved.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd

Good points... which brings us the question: How universal was Christ's atonement?
This is a disputed point in Christianity. Some hold to the absolute universal, as in every world created by God, is under the umberella of Christ's grace (Mormonism) to Calvinistic predeterminated selected grace. Only those chosen from the beginning will be saved.

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The Mormons have it right imho. The calvinist God comes across as a petty, evil little thing.

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Originally Posted by rvg

The Mormons have it right imho. The calvinist God comes across as a petty, evil little thing.

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You mean that beard, you call that right, it's not

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Originally Posted by Sir Moody

when I said "butt out of Science and Politics" I think you may have taken me a bit too literally - I was referring to the Religious groups like Answers in Genesis who seem determined to undermine good Science with babbling pseudo science and out right lies

I was not suggesting that Religious people couldnt be scientists

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but that is often how it comes accross - and worse are the people, including on this board, who regularly ask me "do you believe in evolution".

I always say "yes" but really I should say "no, one does not 'believe' a scientific theory, one merely uses it so long as it provides a rational explanation and then abandons it like a cheap harlot as soon as a bustier, I'm sorry, more rational one comes along."

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Originally Posted by The Stranger

its what happens when people ask questions such as "prove that God exists scientifically"

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Quite.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd

Good points... which brings us the question: How universal was Christ's atonement?
This is a disputed point in Christianity. Some hold to the absolute universal, as in every world created by God, is under the umberella of Christ's grace (Mormonism) to Calvinistic predeterminated selected grace. Only those chosen from the beginning will be saved.

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I've often thought that this argument rather misses the point - Christianity isn't really about Jesus so much as what he taught and the example he provided. The argument should not be about whether his sacrifice was adaquate but about what it was meant to signify.

From my point of view, a "Christian" is someone who accepts Christs core teaching - which is that we are flawed beings with an impaired relationship to God, disobediant children who should ask for forgiveness. A christian is most certainly not someone who reads their Bible every night just because and wears a cross around their neck.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

From my point of view, a "Christian" is someone who accepts Christs core teaching - which is that we are flawed beings with an impaired relationship to God, disobediant children who should ask for forgiveness. A christian is most certainly not someone who reads their Bible every night just because and wears a cross around their neck.

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So you reject the divinity of Christ?

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

So you reject the divinity of Christ?

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Did I say that?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Did I say that?

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Yes; you kinda left that part out. I'm also playing on your rather subjective definitions.

In essence, science is not interested in the question of a god. There has never been a credible scientistic theory of their being a god(s) or indeed a creator. Therefore, science has never had any impetus on disproving it. The onus is not with scientists but with the religious. The same is true with the concept of a 'soul'. Choosing to believe something - anything - that makes you feel good, does not make it true.

Science is concerned with reason and not faith or philosophy. The questions 'how' and 'what' are important and not the 'why'.

Evolution by natural selction is no longer a theory but can now be accepted as fact. There is so much overwhelming evidence - scientific evidence - that it has ceased to be mere theory. It is arguably the most tested and validated 'theory' in science.

The fact that religion uses science is only too understandable. In the case of evolution even the Catholic Church has conceded for it to be so (though it might not promulgate it, yet). It has now become important to find ways in which to include it into the doctrine. This does not in any way mean that they are compatible but only that one uses the other. In this case, the church using science. One might argue rather cynically that a church that claims has all the answers in important matters has now had to adopt reason :quiet:.

Therefore, this ceases to be of any interest scientifically, and only remains so philosophically (barely).

By the way, I would bring forth the following as the basis for Christianity (rather than the ones you have suggested):

1. the immaculate conception
2. the resurrection
3. some form of atonement

If you disregard any of these three (there may be others perhaps slightly less important) you would not be able to say that you are a Christian with a straight face.

Quid