Make it legal and we can regulate it! There will be no more abuses!

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Actually, a scary amount of girls go for older guys. And since WHEN did women stop going for guys who treat them like crap?

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They stopped back when that outlook on women went out of fashion.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

What would you compare it to is the problem. Because the only really good comparison is the US, and because its illegal here, you don't have very good stats on prostitutes or what happens to them. A German prostitute has way more legal recourse than an American one, because the American one is considered a criminal. Do you get it? Or do you think I'm being trite?

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I don't think you personally are being trite. Anyway, the most relevant comparison is the one between the current situation with prosititution in Germany, and the one prior to legalization (or at least, the openness that resulted from the changes in 2003). The figures indicate a massive increase in the trade, that the workers appear to be still largely trafficked, and that the increased competition is forcing them to work more due to lower rates.

If we were going to compare it to America, I don't have much info for that, but I think the comment of one American in Vuk's article says a lot:

"There’s a risk of being arrested in the U.S., but not here,’ he said. ‘And it’s cheaper. Germany is like Aldi for prostitutes."

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

That's just reversing the logic though. What's more important? Punishing johns, or helping prostitutes that would rather not be prostitutes? If its the former, America's system is for you. If its the latter, anything but.

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Well nobody in Germany is being punished by the law, and that seems to have had an overwhelmingly negative effect on attempts to curb the industry.

This really is a whole other matter, but personally I think johns and willing prostitutes should be targeted.

"There’s a risk of being arrested in the U.S., but not here,’ he said. ‘And it’s cheaper. Germany is like Aldi for prostitutes."

No thanks! Canned goods and other such packaged non-perishables are fine Aldi products, but no way I'd walk away with fresh fruits or meats from an Aldi store. /cancels Germany visit

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Yeah, I'm sure all the legal hookers in Germany are dying to have sex with men as old as their father who treats them like crap.

It's every little girls fantasy.

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Yes, it's not like there isn't a social safety net if they do not want to do it. If they're being forced then it's not legal and if they don't report being forced to do it, how does turning them into criminals help that?

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Related: The Economics of Slut-Shaming

Sex is a female resource. While both genders certainly enjoy and depend on the act, natural constraints on female sexuality create scarcity—and value. The high costs of female fertility—in terms of time, mental and physical health, and opportunities forgone—impel women to act as suppliers in the sexual market. Male sexuality, on the other hand, is ubiquitous and cheap. What’s more, men tend to place a higher value on sexual gratification than do women. Men, therefore, comprise the demand for sex.

To consume their desired quantity of sex, men must offer women something of equal subjective value in return. The aggregate supply of willing women and aggregate demand for a roll in the hay in a given market will converge to an equilibrium “price” for sexual access. The price need not be literal, as is the case with prostitution. [...]

As such, there is a strong incentive for women to restrict competition, price-cutting, and client-stealing in the sexual mating market.

Slut-shaming, prohibitions against paid sex work, censorship of pornographic images, and gender segregation are all tools that restrict supply in the sexual market. Anxieties and incentives cause women facing sexual competition to psychologically exhibit similar, although uncoordinated, cartelistic behaviors. Thrill-seekers and erotic entrepreneurs that buck the sexual syndicate find themselves at the mercy of moral indignation and exclusion. A review of the literature on sexual suppression suggests that the evidence is more consistent with the female cartel theory than the patriarchy theory: Periods of sexual restraint coincide with sellers’ markets. Although men historically enforced sexual norms, female self-interest shapes them.

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How is this news?

Seriously - Feminism - get a grip.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Yes, it's not like there isn't a social safety net if they do not want to do it. If they're being forced then it's not legal and if they don't report being forced to do it, how does turning them into criminals help that?

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The social security net surely takes away a lot of the problem(hence why most prostitutes are non-western), but even that won't pay for a drug addiction(the leading recruiter). All the foreign prostitutes, fresh from the balts/balkans/whatever won't have any of that, and has the delightful choice of selling their bodies or watch their kid go hungry. Sure, that's not being forced at all.

Anyway, I of course don't advocate any negative measures aimed at the prostitutes themselves, only the buyers(who I believe to be worthless and can piss off and pay tax instead), and my preferred solution to the nastiest part of the sex industry won't affect the ones you're talking about at all(introducing the rape law).

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Originally Posted by Husar

Yes, it's not like there isn't a social safety net if they do not want to do it. If they're being forced then it's not legal and if they don't report being forced to do it, how does turning them into criminals help that?

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Well if it is being taxed already they should get representation. So a license system including OH&S for the sex workers. Business license and regular health inspectors.

A well regulated sex trade being necessary for the security of the people. :smoking:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

The social security net surely takes away a lot of the problem(hence why most prostitutes are non-western), but even that won't pay for a drug addiction(the leading recruiter). All the foreign prostitutes, fresh from the balts/balkans/whatever won't have any of that, and has the delightful choice of selling their bodies or watch their kid go hungry. Sure, that's not being forced at all.

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First of all, the eastern euros trust shady people in the pursuit of money and riches, their countries need to educate their girls better and improve their conditions to stop this human trafficking. Our country is trying but it's usually hard if the victims are too scared to talk.
As for drug addictions, that is a choice and not something you're born with AFAIK.
I'm absolutely for helping people who made the wrong choices but if they don't seek help and prefer to engage in shady, unpleasant or criminal acts, how is that everyone else's fault? Unless you mean we should legalize all drugs but then Vuk will post an article about how the lower drug prices really ruined the lives of poor drug dealers in Germany and how hunting them with guns all over south america is a far more humane idea.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Anyway, I of course don't advocate any negative measures aimed at the prostitutes themselves, only the buyers(who I believe to be worthless and can piss off and pay tax instead), and my preferred solution to the nastiest part of the sex industry won't affect the ones you're talking about at all(introducing the rape law).

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Maybe the answer you are looking for is that I wasn't replying to you with my first reply. I never said what you propose is bad or makes no sense and I never said our system is perfect. I was arguing Vuk's point that apparently the US system where all of it is criminalized is somehow better.

Oh gosh...I actually agree with HoreTore on something. Damn, I am gonna have to reevaluate my opinions. :P

Overworked, underpaid and subject to abuse by employers...welcome to the legitimate work force.

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Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny

Overworked, underpaid and subject to abuse by employers...welcome to the legitimate work force.

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I feel overpaid, have a lovely boss( who is the sole reason I chose to work there) and I'm on holiday until august 9., having started it june 20th.

Welcome to the world of teaching, don't blame me for choosing the wrong career ~;)

Relevant history: The legalization and regulation of prostitution during the Civil War in Nashville.

Resigning himself to the fact that prostitutes would ply their trade and soldiers would engage them, he reasoned that the women might as well sell sex safely, and so out of sheer desperation, Spalding and the Union Army created in Nashville’s the country’s first system of legalized prostitution.

Spalding’s proposal was simple: Each prostitute would register herself, obtaining for $5 a license entitling her to work as she pleased. A doctor approved by the Army would be charged with examining prostitutes each week, a service for which each woman would pay a 50 cent fee. Women found to have venereal diseases would be sent to a hospital established (in the home of the former Catholic bishop) for the treatment of such ailments, paid for in part by the weekly fees. Engaging in prostitution without a license, or failing to appear for scheduled examinations, would result in arrest and a jail term of 30 days.

https://i.imgur.com/Eg0jzel.jpg

The prospect of participating in the sex trade without fear of arrest or prosecution was instantly attractive to most of Nashville’s prostitutes, and by early 1864 some 352 women were on record as being licensed, and another hundred had been successfully treated for syphilis and other conditions hazardous to their industry. In the summer of 1864, one doctor at the hospital remarked on a “marked improvement” in the licensed prostitutes’ physical and mental health, noting that at the beginning of the initiative the women had been characterized by use of crude language and little care for personal hygiene, but were soon virtual models of “cleanliness and propriety.”

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

The social security net surely takes away a lot of the problem(hence why most prostitutes are non-western), but even that won't pay for a drug addiction(the leading recruiter). All the foreign prostitutes, fresh from the balts/balkans/whatever won't have any of that, and has the delightful choice of selling their bodies or watch their kid go hungry. Sure, that's not being forced at all.

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by that logic every person that lives paycheck to paycheck is being forced to take the job they have also.
for example I would not wish to be a sanitation worker, should I campaign to have that job outlawed?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Anyway, I of course don't advocate any negative measures aimed at the prostitutes themselves, only the buyers(who I believe to be worthless and can piss off and pay tax instead), and my preferred solution to the nastiest part of the sex industry won't affect the ones you're talking about at all(introducing the rape law).

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there is no logical rationale to make illegal or impose sanctions in participants in a monetary transaction, but at the same time admit that the very same transaction goes on every day for "free" or for non monetary values and that is ok.
in other words, if it's legal to give it away for free, it's legal to sell it.

Your logic is flawed.

1. Are you suggesting prostitution is a job like any other? You're honestly saying that you would have no more problem selling your bum for an hour compared to working at a shop...?

2. It's legal to give up babies for adoption. Are you of the opinion that it's perfectly fine to sell human babies?

And honestly, since when did prostitution and normal sex become one and the same? There's a world of difference, unless you consider women to be no more than holes for you to put your willy in.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Your logic is flawed.

1. Are you suggesting prostitution is a job like any other? You're honestly saying that you would have no more problem selling your bum for an hour compared to working at a shop...?

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Where did I say that?
I would have more problems selling my ass than working in a store.
the same way I would have more problems working cleaning a sewer than writing software code in an office like I do.
there are obviously jobs that are way less desirable than others....but we don´t go around outlawing them.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

2. It's legal to give up babies for adoption. Are you of the opinion that it's perfectly fine to sell human babies?

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If I was attempting to be ironic my first answer would be that it seems to me that if you are really rich it is legal to buy babies....see the list of really high end US celebrities that have gone on "adoption sprees" in third world countries.
but I won´t go that far.... I will correct my previous statement saying it is perfectly valid when applied to goods and services (including sexual services) I don´t consider that people themselves fall into either category.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

And honestly, since when did prostitution and normal sex become one and the same? There's a world of difference, unless you consider women to be no more than holes for you to put your willy in.

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Sex is Sex.....sex with someone you are in a real relationship with is Sex + Something else.

And no, I do not consider women just holes, but the truth is that the biological and social conditioning of our species have put women in the role of, in lack of a better words, holding access to a "commodity" that the majority of the male part of our species will have to pay to access in one way or another (at least on first contact, and before the issue of more complex feelings and relationships comes into play)
This is not a negative comment towards women, it's just an observation of the simple result of the uneven levels of supply and demand of sexual contact you find between both sexes, the sex that produces 1 or 2 sexual cells a month will not act the same way as the sex that produces millions and millions and feels a certain "pressure" let's say to spread them around, the side with the lowest level of supply will find that increases it's value and will act accordingly.

When it comes to just regular sex, I find no moral or logical difference between prostitution or let's say going to a pick-up bar and paying for drinks, or the numbers and numbers of men that pick up all the checks on dates at a beginning of a relationship, giving gifts, etc, etc.
I´m not saying all these men are making a conscious and cynical decision of "buying" access to sex, (although some are as you are well aware, we both will know some cases) what I´m saying is that just because society tends to view these transactions as normal or "transparent" doesn´t mean they are not being conducted, every day.

now, all this might be politically incorrect, but that doesn´t mean it's false.

Comparing current trends with that went on when it was illegal decades ago completely ignores the gap in record keeping and data collection. On a similar note, I am amazed at how many educated people repeat the "study" from the early 90s that says most porn actresses were abused as children and are current drug addicts, which is patently untrue today.

It also ignores the influence that US Military presence had at the time, which, like it or not, has had a huge impact on turning certain parts of Europe and SE Asia into unmitigated shitholes. The military is a lot less like that than it was in the past

I love all the romanticized views of sex on this board. If the US lowered the age of consent to 15 your sons and daughters would start selling their butts for new Iphones. Face it.

There are so may facets, sides, contributions and factors that go into people prostituting themselves that making it look like a simple black and white issue between perverts and young women does a disservice to the people who really are victims. A girl selling herself in a bar can make 10x what a freaking nurse does in the Philippines. I have offered to sponsor 4 different girls if they would quit the bar, and they all said no unless I paid them as much as they made in the bar. Which reminds me, I have some thread updates to do.