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Going by that graph, which perhaps uses low estimates, and the figure you quoted, it seems that it could even be something like 1500%-2000%!
Damn it China, at this rate you're going to ruin it for people who complain that the US spends as much as the next X countries or whatever...
I had a long thought about this subject. And I just realised that the blame others Nations or populations for not forgetting or forgiving is a little bit odd.
I am a French leaving in UK and there is not one year without a TV series or show about the war against the French, celebration of Waterloo, Trafalgar (2 commemorations in 2005) or Agincourt. One of the most sold newspapers in UK is openly Francophobic. So, the perpetuation of certain memory is not foreign to our societies.
Then, we are not very comfortable as well with our past crimes. We debate a lot in this forum about History and who start what (there is again a thread about who start WW1) and positions are still touchy.
I, as an individual, never experiment a invasion or destruction on my country. However, I still feel anger when I see on a documentary the German Troops parading in Paris in 1940, and the German population celebrating Hitler for the revenge. Not that I will start a new war against Germany or Germans, but the feeling is still there. And campaigns like the “cheese-eater surrendering monkeys” from the recent past by the US and UK media didn’t help. And do note that France never fought against the USA (ok, a lot against UK). So the hate against the French in the USA is not based on real things but on a perception built by association with the UK history by media and politicians (as even Bush had to concede in a vain try to cure what his administration started, France was historically the first ally of the USA even before they existed).
So, can we blame the Chinese who really suffered of real aggression and rapes and slaughters from the Japanese to still have strong feeling against Japan? What time is needed to heal the wounds? From my French experience in UK, it will be never done as much it can be used to canalise and divert the population’s attention from real problems within the country, or when it can be used to raise the moral of a country…
The so-called Francophobia isn't really vitriolic though. It's more of a sporting rivalry, just that it goes back a few more years than most. You don't get Englishmen ranting about atrocities committed by the French, or anything of that sort. Just respond with banter in the same vein, reeling off a list of French victories against the English. Although on the military front there aren't many things that hit the English nerve (since we've rarely been invaded), and while combined American-French victories are probably closest to that, they don't come close to the kind of ammunition that Brits have against the French (eg. Syria 1941 - the last British victory over the French, or Mers el-Kebir 1940, the last British naval victory over the French, or even Torch 1942, the last American victory over the French).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
It is an interesting point, though, precisely because it is more of a rivalry than true hatred. France and Britain have been allies for more than a hundred years. German occupation of France was relatively mild, at least compared to German occupation of Russia, Poland or Yugoslavia and Japanese occupation of China. That is coupled with the fact that there has been a pretty strong Franco-German alliance in the last 50 years. Maybe it wasn't always officially recognized as such, but in terms of things done, Germany and France has been each other's primary ally for the last half of century. Even though Americans often emphasize the ferocity of their war against Japan and inhuman conditions in which it was fought, let's face it, compared to fighting in eastern Europe or China, it was nothing out of the ordinary, one could say even it was actually pretty tame.
All that being said, there is still at least uneasiness about it. The Chinese and Korean reaction to recent Japanese actions are definitely more understandable in the light.
“You don't get Englishmen ranting about atrocities committed by the French, or anything of that sort. Just respond with banter in the same vein, reeling off a list of French victories against the English. Although on the military front there aren't many things that hit the English nerve (since we've rarely been invaded),).”
Demo of what I said: Celebration by English of victories against the French. I could now list the impressive victories against the English it would just be another demo. We don’t think that time is gone and we have let it go. To be frank, my first reaction towards this answer was exactly this, then I realised what I was about to do. Due to the National Identity Building, the English really believed they won the 100 years’ war in Agincourt. When you say “and while combined American-French victories are probably closest to that, they don't come close to the kind of ammunition that Brits have against the French (eg. Syria 1941 - the last British victory over the French, or Mers el-Kebir 1940, the last British naval victory over the French, or even Torch 1942, the last American victory over the French” it is a denial of one of the greatest lost of territory in History. Just do note that the French (Vichy) won against the British Fleet in Dakar (sorry, too much to resist) (I am ashamed). For the anecdote, my former Father-in Law was a Free French Navy, fighting with the Royal Navy at the time. The victory of the Vichy French against the English Fleet calmed down the resentment of the Free French against the Royal Navy. Funny how we humans are working...
A lot of angst over nothing special, or as Shakespeare almost said, much owt about nowt. Like I said, the so-called Francophobia is akin to sporting rivalry. Fans of sporting teams don't talk about their losses, unless they happened in "plucky defeats" (and British history glorifies enough of these, including Dunkirk). They glory in victories over the local rivals with whom they have a long history. But through all the talk of everlasting rivalries, it still takes a back seat when more important things like life are concerned. Hence remembrances of the deceased are honoured by all sides alike, no matter their supposed rivalry. It doesn't mean the rivalry never existed, nor does it mean the rivalry overrides everything. The sporting rivalry is just something to talk about, a cultural and an identity tag, but it's something that will be put aside when more important things are discussed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
For another version of this sporting rivalry, see the Anglo-American friendly antagonism. There's plenty of needle there, and they have more ammunition to aim at us than you do, being much bigger and more successful than us. But all of it disappears when we have a common cause, and we think the same way more often than not.
Also, when you cite the 100 years war (decisive defeat for the English) and Dakar, that's the spirit. We win some and we lose some, c'est la vie. Just because we don't mention the losses doesn't mean we didn't lose. It just means we find something else to banter about. None of all that stuff remotely approached the unpleasantness that the Chinese and Koreans experienced under the Japanese, so we should be able to brush it away with a smile and a shrug. For all that we celebrate Agincourt, we don't currently hold any territory in mainland France, and that's something we don't even try to deny. Well, maybe apart from Calais on weekends and bank holidays.
Blue water navyQuote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
This statement is simply baffling to me.~:confused: The island battles waged by the US against Japan (Tarawa, Marianas, Peleliu, Iwo Jima, Okinawa) had some of the highest casualty per troops involved, as any battle anywhere during WWII. I've mentioned Iwo several times because the fighting there was as brutal and inhumane as any soldier of any era had to endure. No need for me to go into details with today's web info-net. And yet, some of these same vets from both sides can gather periodically at Iwo, put the brutality of the past aside, and honor the men who fought and fell there.Quote:
Even though Americans often emphasize the ferocity of their war against Japan and inhuman conditions in which it was fought, let's face it, compared to fighting in eastern Europe or China, it was nothing out of the ordinary, one could say even it was actually pretty tame.
On the other hand, the Reunions of Honor are more of a politically-motivated event and don't necessarily have much to do with the goodwill and respect the veterans of the respective sides may or may not have come to share for each other.
And what politics are involved, exactly? The USA and Japan have long been allies in the PTO, so of what use are political maneuverings?Quote:
On the other hand, the Reunions of Honor are more of a politically-motivated event and don't necessarily have much to do with the goodwill and respect the veterans of the respective sides may or may not have come to share for each other
In any case, some of the latest hyperbole:
http://truthernews.wordpress.com/201...nawa-imminent/
Taylor is a weirdo, to be sure, but many of the links in that article make for an interesting read.....
What the Japanese did during the fall of Singapore set the tone for how they were seen throughout the war. I don't think even the Germans and Russians made it a matter of policy to kill the wounded in their hospital beds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Having said that - all those Japanese soldiers are dead now.
Having said that, I don't understand the whole thing about East Asian cultures and ancestors, so maybe there the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons.
There is a lot of ancestor worship. So imagine a bunch of people worshipping -insert bad person here- and this is why they get cranky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla