Switzerland: Multi-tool acceptable, multiculture not.

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Originally Posted by Husar

No nation-state exists in a vacuum, Swiss people come to Germany to buy food because their food prices are as high as their wages. If the EU makes such things a lot harder, e.g. by closing the borders to Switzerland or making trade between EU countries and Switzerland harder or more expensive, then the Swiss will get their very own problems. How about we do not let any airplanes in or out any more? After all, Switzerland doesn't want to cooperate, so why would we let planes to or from there blow dirt into our precious fresh air on their way through?

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Why would we want to harass the Swiss with any of that? We can just cooperate, no problem. If they can buy cheaper in Germany so what, benefits everyone. The EU acts like b*tch turned down if it doesn't get it's way, and what the EU wants is scary as hell. Switserland is a democracy, a concept totally alien to eurocrats, it just gets in their way, the EU is an ultra-undemocratic institution runned by an unelected Flemish ferret who looks like an owl who just dropped from it's tree, an unelected German booksalesman, good after the war and full-time godwin-cannon, and his unelected Portugese waiter. Go Switzerland, where they still listen to their population.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Why would we want to harass the Swiss with any of that? We can just cooperate, no problem. If they can buy cheaper in Germany so what, benefits everyone. The EU acts like b*tch turned down if it doesn't get it's way, and what the EU wants is scary as hell. Switserland is a democracy, a concept totally alien to eurocrats, it just gets in their way, the EU is an ultra-undemocratic institution runned by an unelected Flemish ferret who looks like an owl who just dropped from it's tree, an unelected German booksalesman, good after the war and full-time godwin-cannon, and his unelected Portugese waiter. Go Switzerland, where they still listen to their population.

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Switzerland signed contracts with the EU you know, contracts where they let people in to look for jobs in return for other benefits.
Now they do not want these contracts any more, at least not the ones where they owe us anything, so why should we keep the ones where we owe them anything? The EU can only act like a ***** because Switzerland is trying to make the EU its ***** by cherry-picking the contracts it wants to uphold.
Why would the EU give Switzerland benefits for nothing in return?

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Originally Posted by Husar

Switzerland signed contracts with the EU you know, contracts where they let people in to look for jobs in return for other benefits.
Now they do not want these contracts any more, at least not the ones where they owe us anything, so why should we keep the ones where we owe them anything? The EU can only act like a ***** because Switzerland is trying to make the EU its ***** by cherry-picking the contracts it wants to uphold.
Why would the EU give Switzerland benefits for nothing in return?

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Than don't, the Swiss don't even want to be EU, surely they will get over it that they get borders, they probably want them already. Neither do the Brits and Dutch want the EU, both the Brittish and Dutch are pretty horrified by what it has become, and is increasingly horrified of what it is becomming. If we would have a referendum here (and at our limey buddies) the outcome would probably be that we want out and return to the EEG.

From what I have heard and seen from Swiss friends and contacts, muslims seem targeted in the campaigns...

I don't think it's the German engineers they perceive as a threat to "Swissness". Yeah, I just totally made up that word. LOVE it though :yes:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

From what I have heard and seen from Swiss friends and contacts, muslims seem targeted in the campaigns...

I don't think it's the German engineers they perceive as a threat to "Swissness". Yeah, I just totally made up that word. LOVE it though :yes:

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I proved my point with two links and you have "random anecdotes".....

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Originally Posted by Husar

I proved my point with two links and you have "random anecdotes".....

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http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-con...lim-poster.jpg

Random anecdotes, sure. I saw it more like people actually from Switzerland explaining their view on the situation. I guess it was different from Kanton to Kanton though :)

Would love if we had some Swiss people here who could describe what the discussion looked like.

A Swiss doesn't necessarily have a better perspective on things in Switzerland. One can hardly ask everyone for an opinion.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

A Swiss doesn't necessarily have a better perspective on things in Switzerland. One can hardly ask everyone for an opinion.

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Of course.

I just meant that Swiss people thinking it was much about non-european immigration kind of get strenghtened by the anti-muslim posters.

Let's remember that today's "Swedes" might well wear burkha and not speak Swedish...

Again, I don't think the perceived threat was German engineers, nor Swedish scholars.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-con...lim-poster.jpg

Random anecdotes, sure. I saw it more like people actually from Switzerland explaining their view on the situation. I guess it was different from Kanton to Kanton though :)

Would love if we had some Swiss people here who could describe what the discussion looked like.

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And since these campaigns are by racist nationalists for racist nationalists, we can assume that 51% of Switzerland are racist nationalists?
What was this about "least disagreeable nation" again?
The only thing this proves is that rich people do not want to share and become more greedy and protective of their wealth. Saint Martin must be turning in his grave...

Also, voter turnout was 55.8%, that's pretty bad for direct democracy.

The people with an education, i.e. business leaders, are very worried by this step and hope it will be implemented with as much restraint as possible (also in the last link), so we'll see how it will "benefit" the Swiss economy.
It's funny how you try to prove a point about IQ and support this step and yet the people in Switzerland with a high IQ are against it...

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Again, I don't think the perceived threat was German engineers, nor Swedish scholars.

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Yet you are wrong. German engineers just don't look as oriental and scary on posters, but they are one of the reasons for this, I already showed you that nationalist swiss politicians (you know, the ones who drove this referendum) wanted to stop immigration from Germany.

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Originally Posted by Husar

And since these campaigns are by racist nationalists for racist nationalists, we can assume that 51% of Switzerland are racist nationalists?
What was this about "least disagreeable nation" again?
The only thing this proves is that rich people do not want to share and become more greedy and protective of their wealth. Saint Martin must be turning in his grave...

Also, voter turnout was 55.8%, that's pretty bad for direct democracy.

The people with an education, i.e. business leaders, are very worried by this step and hope it will be implemented with as much restraint as possible (also in the last link), so we'll see how it will "benefit" the Swiss economy.
It's funny how you try to prove a point about IQ and support this step and yet the people in Switzerland with a high IQ are against it...

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Honestly speaking, I think IQ has little to do with how people vote on this issue. Even intelligent people tend to be controlled by their local echo-chamber.

That link was to show that there exists racial differences beyond the color of your skin and thickness of your hair. Should be an obvious point, of course. But plenty of people still seem to disregard it.

Oh wow, Kadgar has an entire wiki article about himself.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Oh wow, Kadgar has an entire wiki article about himself.

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That was low, even for you HT. You are supposed to attack the argument, not the person. At least not in such an unschoolary way (second made up word, that again is AWESOME).

I know you will come to the same conclusion, so I will let you edit instead of bothering mods.

Well, I suppose some French real estate agents will be happy.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Honestly speaking, I think IQ has little to do with how people vote on this issue. Even intelligent people tend to be controlled by their local echo-chamber.

That link was to show that there exists racial differences beyond the color of your skin and thickness of your hair. Should be an obvious point, of course. But plenty of people still seem to disregard it.

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That was not my point, unless you are saying top managers are usually bleeding-heart leftists. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

That was low, even for you HT. You are supposed to attack the argument, not the person. At least not in such an unschoolary way (second made up word, that again is AWESOME).

I know you will come to the same conclusion, so I will let you edit instead of bothering mods.

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I'm amazed at your inability to see that this is a criticism of your nonsensical "arguments", not your person.

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Originally Posted by Husar

That was not my point, unless you are saying top managers are usually bleeding-heart leftists. :laugh4:

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No. Top managers generally want to pay the least they can. Hence they OF COURSE support immigration. Far better to have immigrants working in the factories than troublesome Swiss guys asking for things such as "healthcare" or "vacation".

The Swiss, however, decided that a Swiss worker is worth the payment of a Swiss worker.

I must say I applaud the Swiss. Sweden USED to be like that, but these days you cant oppose work conditions as there are 10 Somalis ready to take your job.

I honestly think Switzerland will be better off in the long run, keeping their nationality and trademark.

Seriously, "Swiss quality" is a selling point. That point would diminish, or rather go out the window, if suddenly Swiss quality meant - Quality from random African or Middle Eastern refugee.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

No. Top managers generally want to pay the least they can. Hence they OF COURSE support immigration. Far better to have immigrants working in the factories than troublesome Swiss guys asking for things such as "healthcare" or "vacation".

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They can just move factories to the workers now instead of letting the workers come to the factories. I bet that will help the economy in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I honestly think Switzerland will be better off in the long run, keeping their nationality and trademark.

Seriously, "Swiss quality" is a selling point. That point would diminish, or rather go out the window, if suddenly Swiss quality meant - Quality from random African or Middle Eastern refugee.

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Yeah, you can hardly sell a good quality german knife any more, there are always ten swiss knives willing to be sold instead. I think we should ban swiss goods from flooding our precious markets and stealing our sales.

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Originally Posted by Husar

They can just move factories to the workers now instead of letting the workers come to the factories. I bet that will help the economy in the long run.



Yeah, you can hardly sell a good quality german knife any more, there are always ten swiss knives willing to be sold instead. I think we should ban swiss goods from flooding our precious markets and stealing our sales.

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Now you are just being silly. You get my point.

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Originally Posted by Husar

They can just move factories to the workers now instead of letting the workers come to the factories. I bet that will help the economy in the long run.

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If the Swiss actually do start restricting foreign nationals(something I highly doubt), I suspect that nearly every Swiss-based multinational organization(the ones who actually make money) will leave in a hurry. Restricting access to labour is one of the most effective ways of scaring away business there is. I'm currently working for a multinational organization based in Switzerland, and I can see them running off to Korea instantly if this nonsense creates any problems. Switzerland will be left with only their domestic companies(who don't make money), and will see their living standards plummet. To top it all off, they will no longer have anyone but themselves to blame for their problems.

Should be a blast to watch from a distance.

I think this is Kad's reasoning:

1. There are blacks and Muslims in the member-states of the Schengen.

2. They have freedom-of-movement into Switzerland by treaty.

3. The Swiss don't want blacks and Muslims to move in from the EU.

4. They implement restrictions on the Schengen requirements to block movement from the EU.

What Kad doesn't consider: 1. As noted, non-black/Muslim Schengeners are affected.

2. Far more established Europeans take advantage of Schengen than the poor, ghettoed Muslims and blacks Kad fears.

3. This does not affect direct movement into Switzerland from black/Muslim countries.

For instance, 1.5 million foreign residents in Switzerland are European citizens, while 200,000 are from Asia or Africa.

Unless you can find stats that show that, of the Europeans with permanent residency in Switzerland, massive numbers of Muslims, greater than those coming from Africa and Asia, are flooding into the country, then I'm afraid you don't have a leg to stand on...

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Guessed stuff

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Honestly, my point is "YEY!!! Go Swiss nationalism!!"

You don't have to dig much deeper than that.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Now you are just being silly.

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I'm not, but if you think that is silly, consider that the Swiss were the ones doing it for a long time: http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/e...RICULTURE.html

Here's more:

http://globaledge.msu.edu/countries/switzerland/economy

I have boldened some interesting parts:

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Being a nation that depends on exports for economic growth, and due to the fact that it is so closely linked to the economies of Western Europe and the United States, Switzerland's economy mirrors slowdowns and growth spurts experienced in these countries.

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During most of the 1990s, the Swiss economy was Western Europe's weakest, with annual GDP growth averaging 0% between 1991 and 1997. Beginning in late 1997, the economy steadily gained momentum until peaking in 2000 with 3% growth in real terms. The economy returned to lackluster growth during 2001-2003, but began growing at or above potential since 2004--2.5% per annum--until the recent global economic crisis, which impacted Switzerland's growth. The year 2008 was marked by a worsening of the financial crisis and the beginning of its spread to the economy as a whole. Long-run economic growth is predicated on structural reforms. In order to maximize its economic potential, Switzerland will need to push through difficult agrarian and competition policy reforms.

[...]

The Swiss economy earns roughly half of its corporate earnings from the export industry. The EU is Switzerland's largest trading partner (59% of exports and 75% of imports in 2010), and economic and trade barriers between them are minimal. After more than 4 years of negotiations, an agreement known as the "Bilaterals I" covering seven sectors (research, public procurement, technical barriers to trade, agriculture, civil aviation, land transport, and the free movement of persons) entered into force on June 1, 2002. Switzerland has so far attempted to mitigate possible adverse effects of non-membership by conforming many of its regulations, standards, and practices to EU directives and norms. Full access to the Swiss market for the original 15 EU member states entered into force in June 2004, ending as a result the "national preference."

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So please tell me how Switzerland is better off with an isolationist policy or why the EU should stick to the other six points of the "Bilateral I" treaty if Switzerland wants to cancel the seventh point? The treaty was negotiated this way and if Switzerland does not agree with it anymore, the whole treaty is up for negotiation again. The ones being silly here are the Swiss.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

You get my point.

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That racism and scaremongering could make us all rich like Switzerland? That sounds like a very bad point given that Switzerland is only rich because it is partially integrated into the EU and is one of few countries that leech money by aiding tax evasion and playing bank for dictators.

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Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral

Well, as a country of about 8 million, Switze%rland is home to about 2 million foreigners. That is about 25 % of the overall population.
The largest groups are Germans and Italians, both numbering somewhere around 300.000. Mostly, these are highly educated people who have moved to Switzerland because salaries are extremely high (I have been told, the average.worker at McDonald's in Zürich makes 27.5 Franks/hour - that is about the same in USD or a bit more than 20 Euros).
So since Switzerland is extremely wealthy, offers a high standard of living and is a part of Schengen, a good deal of people want to make use of that chance.
I am living a 10 min walk from the border, and guess where I look for a job for the upcoming holidays…

Anyway, as the Swiss always liked to point out that they are no Germans, Italians or French but Swiss, there are a lot of people complaining about how the country is flooded by foreigners, who do not know Swiss customs or who do not know the Swiss dialect. (The German-speaking Swiss have a very distinctive dialect.) Also they complained about trains being crowded because of too many foreigners and so on
Well and somehow, the Swiss people's party, has managed to get 50.3 % of Swiss to vote in favor of a proposition to limit immigration in order 'to keep Switzerland Swiss'.
Interestingly, this was favored most in rural and in German-speaking areas.

From my point of view, it is their choice. However not a smart one. By limiting immigration, your doctor will not learn your dialect. He simply won't be there next time.
Also, a lot of companies, especially high-tech ones, employ up to 60-80% foreigners. With this proposition passed, they will have to prove for every single one, that there was no Swiss person who could do his job.
So in the end, the Swiss will have to pay a price for their decision, a price to be paid in standard of living and prosperity.

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I worked in Switzerland before, when they already had these laws.

Boss of the ski school made an insert in the local newspaper (to conform to the demands), that he needed a ski instructor, 187cm tall, qualified Alpine instructor with a history degree and who was fluid in Swedish. Oh, and he needed to be ranked Sgt. or more in the army as well.

Guess what? I GOT THE JOB!!

Don't underestimate the Swiss, they can still get the people they want, even WHILE keeping the trash out.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I worked in Switzerland before, when they already had these laws.

Boss of the ski school made an insert in the local newspaper (to conform to the demands), that he needed a ski instructor, 187cm tall, qualified Alpine instructor with a history degree and who was fluid in Swedish. Oh, and he needed to be ranked Sgt. or more in the army as well.

Guess what? I GOT THE JOB!!

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So you already circumvented the will of the people that you applauded before? Congratulations! How did it feel to get some corrupt preferential treatment and not to be discriminated against? What if the boss of a factory asks for a guy who is 175cm tall, fluid in Congolese and a practicing muslim?

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Don't underestimate the Swiss, they can still get the people they want, even WHILE keeping the trash out.

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Not according to my definition of trash.

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Originally Posted by Husar

So you already circumvented the will of the people that you applauded before? Congratulations! How did it feel to get some corrupt preferential treatment and not to be discriminated against? What if the boss of a factory asks for a guy who is 175cm tall, fluid in Congolese and a practicing muslim?

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Uh... As I got it, that was the will of the people.

I didn't "circumvent" it, they precisely had these laws to keep some in, and some out. Without having to openly state they don't want... Whatever it is that people might not want in their western country.

As to your definition of trash... I guess we all have our own definitions of what is trash and not.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Also, I feel a need to comment on the absolutely hilarious thread title. Multiculture not accepted in Switzerland? Switzerland...? The European country based on four different cultures, who never adopted a monoculture like the rest of us did...?

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I must have missed this post, sorry.

Anyway...

They have four variants of SWISS culture.

They don't have Germans, They have Swiss speaking German.

They don't have french, they have SWISS speaking french.

I actually applaud them for this. They are centered in Europe, yet this very proud nation have been able to build up a national culture strong enough to keep all other powers at bay.

Heck, look at the countries surrounding them, it's not like they budged in to any of the perceived super powers at the time. Sure there are Swiss people speaking German, but Hitler walked his way around.

It was only under Napoleon that Switzerland lost some legibility, Helvetic Republic and all that. But hey, as soon as the world got rid of him they sprung right back.

They are by and large mountain folks. Germanic mountain folks. You could use that to shape a diamond when it comes to core strength, kind of like Scotland.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Uh... As I got it, that was the will of the people.

I didn't "circumvent" it, they precisely had these laws to keep some in, and some out. Without having to openly state they don't want... Whatever it is that people might not want in their western country.

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Oh great, so they're now a country of secret racists who do not dare to tell anyone.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I actually applaud them for this. They are centered in Europe, yet this very proud nation have been able to build up a national culture strong enough to keep all other powers at bay.

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Yet they are somehow strong, despite not wanting to tell anyone that they do not like some people.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Heck, look at the countries surrounding them, it's not like they budged in to any of the perceived super powers at the time. Sure there are Swiss people speaking German, but Hitler walked his way around.

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Oh look! More jokes!

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

It was only under Napoleon that Switzerland lost some legibility, Helvetic Republic and all that. But hey, as soon as the world got rid of him they sprung right back.

They are by and large mountain folks. Germanic mountain folks. You could use that to shape a diamond when it comes to core strength, kind of like Scotland.

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You're on a roll tonight, aren't you?
Nazi gold is always good to shape blood diamonds and it's quite obvious now who and what you are celebrating here...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I feel bad for your uninformed gibberish.

Romania is a part of the EU. It is not a part of the Schengen area.

Seriously. Get some knowledge.

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No, you get some knowledge - Romanians have the same rights of free movement and settlement within the EU as everyone else - as of January this year.

Requring a passport to move is not the same as being refused entry.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

No, you get some knowledge - Romanians have the same rights of free movement and settlement within the EU as everyone else - as of January this year.

Requring a passport to move is not the same as being refused entry.

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<3

Uhm, that was too short an answer for this forum... I'll add:
"love."

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

No, you get some knowledge - Romanians have the same rights of free movement and settlement within the EU as everyone else - as of January this year.

Requring a passport to move is not the same as being refused entry.

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Orly?

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Special interim provisions governing access to the labour market by nationals from Bulgaria and Romania apply until 2016.

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As for Roma problems in Switzerland... Not so much.