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Northern Ireland is not Scotland? Northern-Irish Scots are not Scottish Scots?Quote:
How can Scots, in Ireland, rationalize demanding that NI remain part of the Union when their own homeland isn't even a part of the Union anymore?
By this logic, you should be one of those people who fervently believe that the "Latins" are out to 'colonize' the US.
You don't see a problem? If Scots can dissolve union, why can't Irish? The nationalist underpinning of Scots-Irish sentiment may be undercut by new events. If Scotland isn't part of the Union, then what are Scots in Ireland arguing about?
It's not a matter of can - it's a matter of wanting to. If Scotland were to leave, why would Northern Ireland suddenly want to leave itself?
Self-determination. A significant chunk of NI Catholics prefer the status quo to remain. After the Troubles had ended, the Union has been good for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg
They're not in the union because they have no way out they're in it because they dont want to leave and one group now wanting to leave wont automatically open the floodgates. If it did the troubles wouldnt have ended and the refurrendum wouldnt be such a close thing. Your assumption that everyone is in the union because they had no choice and will jump at the chance is frankly insulting.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg
Stability since the Troubles ended, more public spending per capita than any other constituent part of the UK, free market as part of the EU but with lower taxes, hence booming trade with the Republic. I can't find the graph again, but polls since the 00s show roughly the same number of NI Catholics in favour of the status quo as favour unification with the RoI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
Isn't that the basis for UK's platform for leaving EU - "you're not us and we want to be ruled only by us"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
For some, libertarianism isnt unique to america but Scotland has been fairly happy as a part of britain for 300 years and has repeatedly benefited from it whereas Britain has never been happy with europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
For me, beyond base nationalism which I wont deny, its: "Our politicians are lacklustre, but the european union has repeatedly shown themselves as worse, why would we chose them over ours?"
Plus we get more out of being "with but not of".
ICSD brings up some some of the darker undercurrents to the independence issue that the mainstream media have not picked up upon.
You see while polite society is concerning itself with economics, defence, education, employment, social democracy, and all these things so endlessly discussed by politicians on the TV debates; the truth is that for the 'scummier' elements of Scottish society (as they are generally perceived), this is all really just a continuation of the religious wars of the 17th Century. It's the world of Protestant, Anglo-Saxon British monarchy against the world of Catholic, Gaelic republicanism.
Working-class Catholics are much more likely to vote Yes than working-class Protestants. These views are mirrored by the respective communities in Northern Ireland. The polls conducted at the forums of fan groups for a certain two football clubs are pretty telling. At a Celtic forum 86% say Yes to independence. At a Rangers one, just 16% say Yes.
The media has ignored this dynamic to things. Not consciously in the sense they are biased or conspiratorial; rather it is simply because the working-class PUL (Protestant Unionist Loyalist) and CNR (Catholic Nationalist Republican) communities you find mainly in Western/Central Scotland do not have the social capital to make their voices heard.
It is almost like some sort of completely independent debate going on in parallel to the main one that the rest of society is concerned with.
But isn't it always?
I just love peaceful separation. Some posh wanker builds something super fancy and someone else tells him to sod off and breaks it in half, using it totally differently than expected. Wahooo!
At least we allow peaceful separation if the people wish it so. The same can't be said of the Union on the other side of the Atlantic.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg
We will too. We just need to figure out how to do it the right way. As it stands, if there was a major division, those in the South would have all the guns they wanted, but they'd lose the first amendment. In the North, the constitution would cover feelings and have the police knocking your door down over a fork that was too sharp for public safety. I'd like to dismantling the powers of the Union and continue the court process of clipping the Federal governments wings.
We tried separation a long time ago, when government burning its way to the sea and waging war on civilians was permissible. Today, as long as there are healthy precedents, it may be z bit more cordial.
A basic factor valid almost anywhere. What most people want, in their day-to-day lives, is a modicum of personal freedom, the chance to earn a reasonable living, and a basic sense of security in their persons and property. When the Troubles ended, most folks could do this -- and many don't care all that much about what bit of bunting is flying atop the metal pole at the local government office.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian