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There are several persons of the middle ages and earlier who can be considered early human rights advocates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
But we don't remember those, we remember the people like Colombus.
It's like remembering Hitler and forgetting Schindler.
That's a cop out and you know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Columbus was so abhorrent that the Crown not only striped him of his Governorship but actually later jailed him and confiscated his wealth - while he did somehow sweet talk his way out of jail and into getting his wealth back he never was in a position of power again.
This isn't a "product of his times" - his peers found his crimes just as abhorrent as we do now - there are several Scholars of his time who actually published as much... he was a monster and can only be considered that.
That Oatmeal cartoon is cherry picked hack job
The "Great Prophet Muhammed" was a man of his time when he had sex with 6 year olds...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Hitler was a man of his time when he believed we should cut into the genetical tree of life...
My dad was a man of his time, when he hated gays no matter what...
History and where that line of study should go is never, ever, ever, ever about what we should forget, but about what we shouldn't forgive or forget.
Sadly I'm fairly sure that's already true for a lot of the world's population.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Only one got Oscar's...Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
This bring me to my second (or rather more enhanced) point: We shouldn't get our information from crap outlets if we want democracy to ever work.
Because what Columbus did had a profound effect on the world and forever changed it, for good or bad. It's kinda like Times' Person of the Year - one's chosen based on influence and effect, not based on one's good nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Should we really be making movies about people who committed genocide, like Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan?
Mohammed was indeed a man of his times. It wasn't uncommon even later for man to marry and have sex with underage girls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Hitler wasn't a man of his times, kinda why most of the rest of the world fought him.
I highly doubt your dad was a man of his times as people from that generation didn't all hate gays.
We're talking about 15-16th century. Am I wrong or is that about the time people burned people at the stake for witchcraft and promotion of science alike and committed genocides because of minor and major religious and/or ethnic differences, among other crimes?
The best argument for keeping Columbus Day is that "America Day" is a bit too much and there are already two holidays for the military.
But really, it's kind of a worthless holiday no matter what side you're on. For the Latin countries it might have some special significance, but for the US, it's symbolically meaningless. As it is, it serves neither integrative nor disintegrative purpose by its specification, and in practice it only produces intergroup disintegration.
Is the beginning of the Age of Colonization really worthy of being one of the US's federal holidays, administrative or otherwise? Why not "Contact Day" then? Or, why not "Jamestown Day" or "Louisiana Purchase Day"?
It could be replaced by pretty much anything. Just go ask the dozens or hundreds of lobbyists crying for some new federal holiday.
Federal holiday - not the same as a commercial product.Quote:
Should we really be making movies about people who committed genocide, like Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan?
I'd agree that the background is different, but as far as raising awareness go, it was much more effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
It's not really the movie the itself, it's the mythology it was based upon, a particular mythology most of us westerners have a difficult time letting go of - a culturally, morally, scientifically superior smaller band of westerners, led by a genius confronting and winning against countless eastern hordes.
We have a habit of remembering the nice things and forgetting the ugly. Not in any way unique to Columbus.
300 had a much more nuanced take on the east vs west theme than Alexander.
In Kingdom of Heaven the templars are the evil ones, while the muslims are the noble savages.
In Walker Texas Ranger, as well as some Steven Seagal movies, the Indians are the noble savages.
It's not like the entire movie industry is pro-west (although technically the Indians were the westerners and the Europeans the easterners), some of them are also pinko-commie fifth columnists.
There were also more than just Schindler: Bonhoeffer, Canaris, Stauffenberg and several I have forgotten about...
Learned about many of those from movies as well.
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
A national holiday implies one's good nature.
Well, Kenya has an Obama Day, so your point is invalid, since he is a pinko muslim socialist who wants to sell the greatest country in the world to its enemies.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Anyway, Columbus day isn't really about Columbus. He's just a personification.
"A national holiday implies one's good nature." Err, like storming a Fortress used as jail (kind of Guantanamo Bay one)?
As is said earlier in the thread, the reason why the day exists is because a group of Catholics wanted a Catholic hero/rolemodel for catholic children. It is about Colombus himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Yes, storming the Bastille was a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
you don't have a "building the Bastille"-day in France.
Yes, those lunatics were being oppressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Someone here said that history is about what were should shouldn't forgive or forget. The latter is fair enough, but the former is BS. The study of history isn't about whether we forgive people or not.
Columbus day had been celebrated in the USA for many years. The highest popularity of the celebration coincided with the USA's most "jingoist" era, from our centennial up until World War II. During this era -- when Kipling wrote of taking up the "white man's burden" without seeing anything hypocritical in it -- it is safe to assume that "revisionism" was not being applied to the rather superficial knowledge most yanks had about Columbus. Catholics used him as a standard bearer -- including my Knights of Columbus -- because he was both Catholic and moderately popular as historical figures went.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Working together, the Knights and a powerful New York Tamany Hall leader (of Italian origin) convinced the Democratic President from New York to approve the Federal Holiday. In the NE, Columbus day was the Italian-American counterpart to St. Pat's for many people -- a celebrate your heritage day.
Most Americans today celebrate the Holiday by watching ALL of Sunday Night Football without worrying about getting up the next day. A huge slice of them couldn't tell you why this Monday was a holiday and if you told them it was President's Day or Veteran's Day instead of Columbus Day they would probably agree with you and certainly wouldn't care one way or another -- except that they have the day off.