Well nothing has been changed about armour piercing in the patch..
CBR
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Well nothing has been changed about armour piercing in the patch..
CBR
Are you pretty sure about that? The readme said some quirks about how bonuses were applied were fixed. Was that entirely swipe-bug fixes?
I haven't noticed anything strange, but I was just wondering if we could get an official word out of LJ, or someone reputable such as yourself http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif.
Thanks CBR
I think people would have noticed if the AP had been tampered with. So many people play with specific armies that they would notice that their AP units would suddenly be as effective or more effective.
dont feel any different in the AP units here.
does the armor piercing bonus go up with weapon upgrades?
Dion,
I think the readme is referring to charge bonus that was changed so that it isn't being continuously applied simply because the unit is moving faster than a certain speed. The strategy guide mentions a speed threshold below which the charge bonus is lost. By implication, a unit was getting the charge bonus by virture of moving at a speed above the threshold even though no specific enemy unit was targetted. A charging man is supposed to loose momentum everytime he fights someone and eventually loose the charge bonus. Something about not engaging the unit leader seemed to keep the men in the unit moving at top speed, presumably to keep pace with the unit leader, and thus never loosing the charge bonus. Although the readme says "cav" charge bonus, I believe it was changed for all unit types. This change of the charge bonus alters the gameplay substantially because you have to target individual units now to get the charge bonus, and you don't get 20+ kills in a direct charge as you did using the indirect swipe.
The only change I'm aware of in v2.01 that isn't mentioned in the readme is the behavior of a dropped player's units.
Kokami,
No, it doesn't. The AP bonus is a fixed value (bonus to attack) computed from the target unit's armor value after removal of the contribution to armor of the shield and horse.
i can't quite put my finger on how to word it, but i just feel that armor pierceing is screwed up.
Well I wish CA had went into more detail, like missile armour piercing works, but I wouldnt say its that screwed heh.
Here is a list of armourpiercing modfifiers
Infantry armour: bonus to attack
1-2: +0
3-4: +1
5-6: +2
Cavalry armour(if I understood it correctly)
2-3: +0
4-5: +1
6-7: +2
8-9: +3
The better armour you have the better defense you have. When facing an armour piercing weapon that bonus you have from armour is reduced. To say it in a simple way.. your bonus from armour is halfed. The specific numbers are in the above tables.
And that is not the armour value you see when hitting F1 as that has the shield included. Armour piercing does not count against shields. Most infantry with armour has 3 or 4(giving +1 to attack for the armour piercing enemy)
CBR
No. The probability that you will kill your opponent goes up by 20% for each weapon upgrade. Each weapon upgrade is a +1 to the attack value and costs 33% of the current florin value of the unit. Armor piercing is something that adds to the probability of killing your opponent. Each +1 on the attack value increases that probility by 20%. A weapon upgrade does not increase the armor piercing capability of the weapon because, in actually, it has nothing to do with the weapon. It's just a +1 to the attack value. There is no weapon. There is just a single number that gets incremented.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Yuuki (Puzz),Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
I'm grateful for the elimination of the "swipe" and the associated "perpetual charge" caused when the unit leader avoids engagement--dont get me wrong. But something Magy said once rings true here, I think "Two steps forward, one step back." I think we've made a net gain of 1 step forward, or maybe 1.5, but I have an issue to address.
Prior to the patch, it was suicide to "mass" your archers in loose formation. By "mass" I mean lump together--putting 3 archer units on top of eachother in loose formation. One good sweep or even a clicked-charge and the whole mass would rout.
Something I've noticed with the patch is it is very difficult to cav-charge massed archers, because you cant get your charge bonus as easily. It is very difficult to tell which unit you are targeting and which unit you should be targeting when they are all jumbled together.
It appears the "being charged by cav -6 morale penalty" used to be applied to all units in which any man was being attacked by "charging" cavalry (i.e. cavalry receiving its charge bonus). Now that you can only get a charge bonus against a single unit, and only then if you actually click the attack, I feel that cavalry is UNDERPOWERED against archers and pavs.
For example, I have a line of pavs and a line of archers, both in loose form, and position right on top of eachother (this can be done without the troops shuffling around like they sometimes do). My pavs are about 2 feet in front of the archers. When my pavs get charged by cav, I order the archers to move up 2.5 feet to absorb the cavalry attack. The cavalry doesn't get any charge bonus against my archers, my pavs continue to fire, and the cavalry charge is stopped dead in its tracks. Cavalry charges against foot-archers and pavs shouldnt be stopped dead in their tracks like that.
I think what will fix this new issue is giving cavalry a bonus against ranged units. Cavalry should eat up archers and pavs like popcorn, whether it gets its charge bonus or not. So if we give cav, say, a +3 attack vs. foot archers/pavs/xbows, the cavalry will still do enough damage to make it worth charging into "massed" archers.
Of course the turk players are going to say "no way", but I've seen several turk players exploiting the "massed archers, on which unit do I click my cav?" problem-- either consciously or unconsciously.
Anyway.... lets think about this...maybe I'm being a baby, but I think I'm on to something.
If a cavalry guy is charging (ie has his lance down), then he gets his full charge bonus and potential multiple attacks against whoever he hits, whether they're in the target unit or not.
If he's running (lance up) then he gets his charge bonus at contact, but thereafter has to stop and fight normally.
If he's walking, he doesn't get his charge bonus at all.
The charging action is triggered when the unit leader gets within a certain range of the target's unit leader. I'd suggest your best solution is to make sure you attack straight on so that all the men are at about the same distance when the charge begins. This'll make it harder to get another unit in the way before some of the men have started charging.
BTW nothing to do with armour piercing was changed in the patch.
Dion,
Cavalry has been underpowered vs ranged units in all versions of mtw/vi. I just tested v0 feudal knights charging v0 cmaa in mtw v1.1 and vi v2.01, and the cav got 7 charge kills in both versions with a direct charge. This is in contrast to a swiping move which produced 25 charge kills on the cmaa in mtw v1.1 but only 2 charge kills in vi v2.01 with the same move. In fact, the cmaa demolished the swiping feudal knights in vi v2.01 killing 37 and only loosing 16 men. It just goes to show how the swipe was affecting people's perception of the unit balance. It also shows how a 250 florin sword unit beats a 425 florin cav unit if the cav doesn't get a clean charge which routs the sword before the cav unit runs out of men.
LongJohn,
Thanks for the clarification about the charge bonus with lance up vs lance down. However, there was something about a swipe before the fix that made it more effective than a direct charge as the little test I just did shows. It could be that the swiping unit in my test picked up the +5 attack bonus for charging into a flank since the cmaa was trying to engage the cav's unit leader who ran past causing the cmaa to start turning.
Yuuki,
Yeah, cav has been underpowered against missles since we lost our Yari, I was afraid it had just gotten worse, but LJ has made me feel better.
LJ,
Thanks for the explanation-- your solution (lance up/down) makes good sense, and I think it is a fair one (although historically the lance would probably shatter or get stuck after killing the first man, but given the chronic weakness of cav vs. missle in MTW, it is a fair compromise).
Thank you very much for listening and commenting.
Edit: Hmmm... so the more I think about this, the more it seems it could be turned to the advantage of the charging cavalry. If I target the farthest unit away from my cav, most likely they will begin charging before they make contact with any of the massed units....then they will charge through all the intervening archers...
Thanks again LJ.
Everybody says "swipe is gone, now balance is changed, cav is weak bla bla bla"... LOL how many could really do swipe anyway? It wasn't easy to do in the heat of battle with all your cav, and honestly it was something which required skill to do well. I know only a few people who were really swiping, 90% of the community either did not know how to do it even in theory or either they knew it but could not do it. Now I see many people within this 90% saying "now the swipe is gone.....". LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif
Kanuni,
Swipe is easy to do, it was was used a lot and it has a devastating effect. It even affected the game when a player was trying not to swipe. I see players still trying to use it in vi 2.01. You are the only player I know who has taken the position that removal of the swipe has not changed the game. Where did you get the 90%? Should I make a written note of that number?
I also think that swiping was becoming wide spread shortly before the introduction of the patch. Knowledge about it increased gradually, and towards the end you saw people just "living" by employing the swipe technique.
90% is certainly not true, but there also were many who knew about it but refrained from using it intentionally.
Hm you sure about that? That was one of the changes in the patch. Before that any running unit would get the charge bonus by just running into an enemy unit. Now is has to be attacking to get the charge bonus.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Before the patch is was easy to make a big cav charge: just select your cav, drag line behind enemy line and then hit ctrl r a few times (marching very quickly) After the patch your cav will just touch the enemy line and start fighting but I dont see the many kills that comes from adding the charge value.
CBR
Yes, I'm talking about after March 2002. Also, in a team game all it took was one of the players in the game using swipe to affect the game. So, maybe it's true that a majority of the players didn't know about the swipe, but it's also true that almost all of my team games were affected by it.
Okee I gotta disagree a bit. I don't think the swipe was ruining the game. It took some time and micromanagement to do. I don't think I ever saw an army be "swiped" off the field. Even with CB's mighty click.
Individual units left unprotected were destroyed by the swipe... but hey, they were unprotected single foot units. Good to see cav knock around some CMAA.
If I ever caused an army to chain rout thru the swipe, it was because Yuuk was already pinning the enemy's front with his full army and I got 2-3 cav in behind the enemy army and was wreaking holy hell... but again I think 2-3 cav at the back of an army should wreak holy hell.
The other instance of the cav swipe, was cleaning out x-bows sitting too far out in front of the enemy line. Again the horses should smack em around.
I think there were/are far more problems with this game balance than the swipe.
What I didn't like though was people turning their cavs to be perpendicular to a missle line, and just using the outside cavs to swipe the missles, getting a large 'bonus' by swiping. The entire unit should have had to engage. Those men on the outside of course could kill the missles, but the fact that they were accelerated through them because their unit leader wasn't fighting was a bit wrong imo.
And, it was pretty annoying when the person who spread their cavs out the widest would in many situations have an advantage. Yes they'll still get other bonuses if the end of the unit wraps around yours a bit, but the overall effect is better now in my opinion.
Oh yeah, but you know that tactic is still viable. While it might not swipe anymore it will force the ranged unit in to a fight it can't win (5k).Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
In a couple of battles I have noticed it being used against me. Luckily I have seen it in time. But that disrupted my battleline greatly and kept my ranged less efficiently.
But at least now it is fair. It takes me as much micromanagement as it takes of my enemy.