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Doesn't Sun Tzu answer some questions at the very end... about Negative circumstances... and how to overcome them...
I pretty sure he does.
In fact... Im Damn sure he does.
"Shaka Zulu was a student of Sun Tzu."
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Where the D1255 and D720?
I think this thread is very valid. When I first read Sun Tzu, I said, "Is that all there is?" All the way through, I was thinking, "Well, duh!" This is just common sense!
One thing to consider when reading Sun Tsu is that there was no systematized manual of strategic warfare before his and the other six great works of Chinese binfa. Warfare at that time consisted of much ceremony, macho dueling, and mob brawling, and little logical planning. Sun Tzu's work made a practical science out of the politics and strategy of war.
Also, as someone mentioned above, its usefulness is ensured by its general nature. It can be applied to business, team sports, and firefighting as well as battle.
It's remarkable that so many generals and politicans since the work was written have failed to follow its common sense precepts. Thus, we must remind ourselves, occasionally, of simple principles. It is easy to lose sight of common sense when conducting serious business. If you have a strategy in mind, skim through The Art of Warfare and see if the plan adheres to its basic logic.
The I-Ching is just as vague, by the way, and has also survived 2500 years.
ROTFLMAO!!! Priceless!
Quote Originally posted by Papewaio:
Yes I can see it now;
An ageing cranky samurai, with long messy hair, a relative distain for personal hygiene compared to his peers, a fondness for a remote cave as a domicile, and a nasty habit of duelling with anyone who wants to learn from him… deciding to do a book promotion so he to can be seen in literary circles shoulder to shoulder with Sun Tzu and Sei Shonagon.[/QUOTE]
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Obake
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Gah!
Sun Tzu's work is excellent, inspirational reading.
Krast thinks, how wonderful that it is so clearly applicable to the game.
If you not see the connection, you need more ... life experience, maybe?
Rshuck writes :-
"What is needed to be discussed is how to fight from a bad situation when out numbered etc. (saying dont fight is not an answer)."
I think Sun Tsu is saying exactly that "don't fight" (in a bad situation) IS the answer! Sun Tsu teaches what are good and bad situations and how to convert one into the other.
The book is a masterpiece and applicable to many more areas of life than just military. IMHO.
I forgot to mention in my last post:
One reason a general may go against Sun Tzu's precepts is to be unpredictable.
A simplistic example:
If I'm up against an opponent and we are aware that we both know Sun Tzu, he will expect me to take the high ground as he approaches a valley. He will approach the valley prepared to accept an attack from the high ground.
But I will hide my force behind a stand of trees in the floor of the valley (and put a decoy force on the hills, if possible). I will give up the advantage of high ground to give me surprise and a flanking approach to my opponent's force.
This, by the way, is another principle of Sun Tzu.
Tachi's example raises what I consider to be one of the key teachings in the "Art of War", that of the ordinary and extraordinary forces and the ability to have the two switch at a moments notice.
Another fine illustration of the concept can be found in the Shingen and Kenshin's battle at 4th Kawa.
Kenshin had his army encamped in a strong position on a mountain. Shingen chose to split his forces in two with the ordinary force (which Shingen wanted to use as his extraordinary force) waiting in the valley below with his extraordinary force (which Shingen wanted to appear as ordinary) flanking Kenshin on the mountain and forcing him down to the plain below.
Kenshin, supsecting a trap turned his entire army into an extraordinary (in this case unpredictable) force by moving away from his camp and attacking Shingen's main troops in the valley below.
Shingen was only saved by the arrival of his extraordinary force causing Kenshin to withdraw.
Japanese history is replete with these types of examples and the work of Sun Tzu was well known to the Sengoku Daimyo.
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Obake
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
I have used a similar tactic before and it yielded good results. I have been toying around with custom battles to see how an approach which steers as far away from Sun Tzu as possible fairs. Now while some of the battles were truly disasterous a few gave remarkable results which I would never have expected.
As to Sun Tzu's 'Art Of War', the more general and non-specific something said is the harder it is to attack as a good attack has to be a bit more targeted. For example if I said that the key to the universe can be found in peace, prove me wrong, for if you say I am lying then I can just say you haven't found it or you do not have an open mind.
I think Sun Tzu would put peaceful rule as the pinnacle of political policy. The Art of Warfare is one big "However if . . ."
Alright Rshuck-- your arrogance can only stand in your way.
If you want to learn a bit of humility is in order. But if you want to continue to sabotage your own educational efforts with that attitude of yours, it only hurts you.
And that's all I'm going to say. Someday, probably years from now when you've come full circle and reinvented the wheel, you will grasp the truth of my words.
Matt
Rshuck I'm curious to which tactics that were antithesis of Sun Tzu performed well under custom battle and which did not, also I would like to know which engine you were using.
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Victory first, Battle last.
.... ..... .... heh http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote Originally posted by Obake:
Tachi's example raises what I consider to be one of the key teachings in the "Art of War", that of the ordinary and extraordinary forces and the ability to have the two switch at a moments notice.
Another fine illustration of the concept can be found in the Shingen and Kenshin's battle at 4th Kawa.
Kenshin had his army encamped in a strong position on a mountain. Shingen chose to split his forces in two with the ordinary force (which Shingen wanted to use as his extraordinary force) waiting in the valley below with his extraordinary force (which Shingen wanted to appear as ordinary) flanking Kenshin on the mountain and forcing him down to the plain below.
Kenshin, supsecting a trap turned his entire army into an extraordinary (in this case unpredictable) force by moving away from his camp and attacking Shingen's main troops in the valley below.
Shingen was only saved by the arrival of his extraordinary force causing Kenshin to withdraw.
Japanese history is replete with these types of examples and the work of Sun Tzu was well known to the Sengoku Daimyo.
[/QUOTE]
LOL, poisened by Sun Giz
This is a demonstration to the quote:
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Quote Originally posted by Max Payne:
LOL, poisened by Sun Giz
This is a demonstration to the quote:
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.[/QUOTE]
Ah, this is a very nice quote indeed. I know Obake uses that.. is he the idiot.. err.. I mean the originator http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif ?
--tootee aka goldfish shimazu
Okay this is slightly off this topic... how are you guys doing the Quotes???
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Victory first, Battle last.
Isn't it obvious?
Quite annoyed by the no. of believers of Sun Tsz, and those not knowing the incompetent side of his strategy and those explaining things with the laid out principles to even going deep about it.
Sun Tsz's ideas were rather general and the thoughts were not consistent and so there're situation out of the book.
What amuses me are those who have neither the inclination nor the capability to go beyond the surface of what Sun Tzu says and to truly attempt to understand the underlying meaning and precepts.
Rather, they seek to cover their lack, by attacking the work of someone who's been dead for almost 4000 years and anyone who has penetrated where they cannot/have not.
If people don't like Sun Tzu, that's fine, they are entitled to that opinion, but by attacking those who find value in the work, all that they accomplish is to clearly demonstrate the inherent truth of the quote in my signature.
Having been there before (and on my own I might add), I have no desire to allow myself to be dragged back to that level again.
Papewaio, quotes are accomplished by beginning the text you want to quote with the word quote bracketed by []. To finish it you must end the text with /quote again bracketed by [].
You may want to click on the "*UBB Code is ON" link just to the left of the text entry box when you are writing a post.
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Obake
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
[This message has been edited by Obake (edited 11-15-2001).]
Actually, in all reality Sun Tzu was only a fictional pen persona for the actual writer of the work, and the actual writer can not have been dead for more than about 2200-2300 years..
And even by traditional accounts Sun Tzu can't have been dead for more than about 2300-2400 years..
Anyway, notice my silence on the central issue of this thread. IMO we should all let the willfully ignorant wallow in their arrogance.
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-Matt
Visit the Center for the Enrichment of Shogun Total War here.
He'll just be that much easier to beat when we seem him online (not that I ever play online, but that's for a different thread).
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Disappear into the Darkness!!
Ack! People still keep reading Sunzi Bingfa (aptly translated the Art of WAR) hoping to find the Science of BATTLE. Don't you realize that the fundamental precept of winning a war, according to the author, is to secure your victory before you ever get to the battlefield?
Khan7,
I thank you for your comment on my arrogance which places me in such distinguished company as many of the great western commanders whom have been noted for their arrogance and self-belief.
If you don't attempt to fault something how do you know it to be true?
I am duly impressed by your silence, although I have heard quieter.
Rshuck
Could you please say which tactics worked that were the opposite of Sun Tzu on the custom battles.
I would prefer to see your evidence and I would also like to see the end results.
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Victory first, Battle last.
BTW
Khan7
How is it that everyone who voices an opposite opinion to yourself is arrogant? It is not just this thread either.
You use logical arguments, augmented with examples and stick pretty close to the thread at hand.
Then you undo all this by belittling people who voice a different opinion.
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Victory first, Battle last.
I am simply stating the facts..
Belittlement? He's taken care of that for himself.
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-Matt
Visit the Center for the Enrichment of Shogun Total War here.
This thread seems to be degrading... Who agrees with rshuck and who doesn't? I disagree, and do I really need to say why? Look at all the reasons overtly repeated by rshucks detractors.
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Life doesn't seem through bad with Led Zepplin floating through the ears
Aye, it's not really going anywhere. Whatever.
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Disappear into the Darkness!!
Quote Originally posted by Obake:
What amuses me are those who have neither the inclination nor the capability to go beyond the surface of what Sun Tzu says and to truly attempt to understand the underlying meaning and precepts.
[/QUOTE]
What's amusing to me is that if sun tsz's principles are to be given an assumption that it's wrong, what's the point to complusorily build up something that's at the false place? and the same with attempting to learn by reading throughly and understanding throughly of the content. some of us just prefers to learn from somebody rather than crystal with impurity.
ok sun tsz's right, and the rest are not worthy to be considered and we should all stfu; and think about what if this assumption is wrong... i'm unimpressed by the book. and some think i probably have not gone through that place to the place of truth. nevertheless, the book is an art and those who are not genius are free to admire, so as the rest free to be unimpressed.
You're misunderstanding completely. Disappear.
I think the "rules" mentioned of Sun Tzu's art of war are mostly intuitive.
Good military leaders know intuitively they have to be efficient, fast, surprising, and calm, etc. It is really nice to collect these concepts in a book (art of war) and systematically educate the (future) generals, but it would be going to far to treat the book like a Bible.
There is no rules for masters. Sun Tzu also says "We rest when the enemy moves, and we move when the enemy rests". The masters have good responses for the opponents' actions.
Khan7-san, if you recall, this is not the first time you have been reprimanded for your failure to offer due respect to your fellow debaters. I am under no illusion that it will be the last, but at least I and others try to remind you every once in a while - courteousness is a very true virtue on a samurai message board.
Granted, however, that goes for others as well. I recognize that this thread's very topic commits ad hominem against Sun Tzu concerning his imperfectly preserved legacy, but that is no reason to further personify a lack of respect for those opinions into those defending said opinions - or have any undue disdain for those who choose to disagree with those opinions. As is clear, this thread is about opinions, just as any other thread is. And all opinions can be discussed in a much more comfortable environment if the holders of those opinions can respect one another, even if they cannot respect one another's opinions.
Thus, courtesy. Surely my request is not excessive.
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"There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run quickly along the road. But doing such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to everything".
- Yamamoto Tsunetomo: Hagakure