Poland Expert PBEM Campaign (Early GA)

Welcome to the Org. Buka http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

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The Glorious Reign of King Wladyslaw II

part 1 (covers first 20 years)

King Wladyslaw II began his reign in the year 1098, here is what was the condition of a state:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...1098astate.jpg

There was enough money to develop and the king realized that.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...M1098bking.jpg

Although he was not the best field commander and wasnt well educated, he viewed himself better than the others, and that confidence, that secret pride, was his driving force.

AD 1098
There were lands to the north where the pagan peoples lived. Warrior Tribes of the Prussians and the Pomeranians. King saw them as a threat, and also the alliance made with the Pope, who wanted the pagans to be Christianized, these were the reasons why the king started thinking about war.

AD 1099
A unit of horse archers was first called from Moldavia to Poland, and was then sent to Pomerania to harass the pagans.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...9excursion.jpg

AD 1100
The King himself led the army to conquer Pomerania.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...00conquest.jpg

It was a good victory, none of the enemies was left alive.
But the situation in Pomerania was very unstable, and so the King had to stay there for a couple of years to strengthen his rule over that region.

AD 1106
Reports from Moldavia reacher his majesty king Wladyslaw II, that Kiev had been taken by the Prince of Novgorod.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...ievnovking.jpg

The Novgorodian Prince was a ruler to be feared by his enemies and respected by his allies, his forces were strong, too strong...

There was also a pagan army in Volhynia, commanded by quite a remarkable general. The King had decided to send an emissary to Duke of Volhynia, to discuss our relations and also the threat presented by the Novgorodians, who were continuously attacking Volhynia, even before they arrival to Kiev.


http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...ckedbynovg.jpg

Unfortunately the pagan ruler was too confident in his own abilities, and the emissary had to leave few years after with nothing.

AD 1108

The Prussians were another threat to our country, constantly raiding our border lands they had to be dealt with. Their ruler was, however, not an easy opponent.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...8prussians.jpg

First attack took place in 1108 and was led by a proud prince Henryk, who convinced his royal brother to make this attack. Henryk wasnt unfortunately commander good enough to win the battle. He returned beaten and severely wounded with very few men.

AD 1109
That irritated his majesty king Wladyslaw II so much,
that he ordered his careless brother to attack the next year again, but this time under command of 16 year old prince Konrad. That expedition was also a failure, prince Henryk was killed and prince Konrad was wounded.

AD 1111
But eventhough the previous attempts to conquer Prussia were failures, the pagans had been weakened, and their undoing was only a matter of time. And so it happened in the year of the Lord 1111. The young prince Henry was appointed for a commander, as he seemed quite a promising general.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...kesprussia.jpg

The battle was won, and the province was taken. Our kingdom was getting stronger.

AD 1113
King once again sent an emissary to Volhynia this time demanding a tribute. The pagan dog refused and offended His Majesty. To avenge the offense, prince Konrad was sent, with an army of mercenaries from Moldavia.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...ervolhynia.jpg

The battle was quick and bloody, a defeat, but the pagans dogs bled more

AD 1114
The Conqueror of Prussia, prince Henry had taken Volhynia Prince Konrad who was also fighting in this battle had been killed, and now prince Henry was the second one to the throne. The first was weak prince Casimir stationing in Moldavia, only two years younger from His Majesty the King.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...esvolhynia.jpg

AD 1115
Kiev belonged to Novgorod since 1106, but they didnt manage to conquer Lithuania. Influenced by his younger brother prince Henry, the king had decided to send an expedition to Lithuania. But as prince Henry had to stay in Volhynia to keep there order, the command was given to a mercenary general. The army itself was composed only of mercenaries.

The Lithuanians withdrew to Livonia, but at the same time prince of Novgorod sent an army to take the province for him. This started a long war with the Novgorod.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...nlithuania.jpg

AD 1117
Our country was strong and was developing, slowly but surely conquering new territories. The Novgorod which appeared a major threat just a few years ago, now was weakened by its struggle in Ryazan and Volga, where they were fighting large rebellions. This was a good time to ensure our place in the east. In this year two polish armies attacked Novgorod's lands. One was commanded by prince Henry, and took Lithuania.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...slithuania.jpg

The other one attacked Kiev, and was led by the Crown Prince Casimir.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...rtakeskiev.jpg

AD 1118
The first twenty years of king Wladyslaw II's reign had passed. Country was strong militarily, economy wasnt to well developed (salt mines in Pomerania, basic farms).

Since 1106 the king often used mercenaries, so there wasnt enough money for everything, but Poland and Silesia had been developed quite well.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...1118poland.jpg

end of part 1
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I'll post what happened next when i finish my reign.

Regards,
EC

Looks good, but might want to grab those forts in Kiev and Lithuania. Are you allied to HRE and Hungary? b/c they could try ot go grab either Silesia or Poland.

I see those florins i left you were of good use
Hopefully Prince Henry's gonna be the next king. Casimir doesnt look too promising, if it's so we're gonna have a pretty good royal line http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
I'm slightly concerned that we're losing so many princes in battle http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/idea.gif but the expansion is a good idea. oh yeah East have you got any idea what you want your King to be nicknamed?

Ok my reign is finally over.

King Wladyslaw II died at the age of 63 and his reign lasted 40 years (1098 - 1137).

o_loompah is King Mieszko III

current save game: The Polish 1138

Well, the overall situation of Poland is not bad. We have about 3500 soldiers (there are also some 600 mercenaries ready to hire in Lithuania and Kiev), we lack good generals tho. In the east, the Novgorod is fairly weak now. Their soldiers are neither numerous nor of good quality. It's only that they have some good commanders. Continuing conquest there is possible, but I wouldnt expect the war to be ended soon. The Hungarians are not much of a danger now. I didnt try to conquer them only because they're catholic faction and the Pope didnt call for a crusade against them. Attacking them might not be the best idea however, as they are allied with the Byzantines who are neutral for us. The HRE is busy with its war with the French, so they are not likely to attack. I see many opportunities for a new king, I see obstacles as well. This should be an interesting reign I think.

I'll post more detailed report about the last 20 years of my reign later.

PS
Dont worry about the GA points, we lead with 19, the second are the Byzantines.


Regards,
EC

Could you put up a zip file? I dont actually know what .rar is or how to 'unrar' it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-help.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (o_loompah @ Feb. 20 2004,14:29)]Could you put up a zip file? I dont actually know what .rar is or how to 'unrar' it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-help.gif

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The Polish 1138.zip

Thanks I will try it out in the morning.

I just had a look at the savegame file, looks good i have to say I reckon Novogrod can be defeated if we can crush their only large stack which seems to be threatening Lithuania.
Allying with France may be a good idea, they might be grateful as they have no allies but thatll give us a bad name with the English, but France does seem to be winning the fight against BOTH the HRE and Englnad http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif. I'd also say, get back on neutral term with the Hungarians. We don't esp need their territory to win and they have quite a few big stacks near Poland and Silesia. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-computer.gif

Well I played two years -

1138 - invaded Hungary and Carpathia, wthdrew from the latter as there were 1300 Huns to 540 Poles, but the Hungarians abandoned Hungary http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif Anyway massive looting job followed as we prepared to abandon the province and treasury rose to 3,600fl. The Pope ticked us of and excommed the French.

1139 - attempt to take Crimea with only 160 men, turns out there are 220 Russians so invasion aborted.

More tomorrow.

Nice move with Hungary o_loompah http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif I wouldnt go for Crimea, its not worth much...

Regards,
EC

Wow...always thought the Hungarians were a odd bunch anyway. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif But i'm not sure how you'd justify that attack though (ok so they were at war with us) But it might just be possible if you have the V&V of Strange or summat along the lines of that...so that he attacks a province which seems to be a strange choice or summat http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-confused.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Chimpyang @ Feb. 21 2004,14:28)]Wow...always thought the Hungarians were a odd bunch anyway. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif But i'm not sure how you'd justify that attack though (ok so they were at war with us) But it might just be possible if you have the V&V of Strange or summat along the lines of that...so that he attacks a province which seems to be a strange choice or summat http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-confused.gif

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Actually the war with Hungary started in 1122, and it devastated Hungarian army as far as my reign is concerned, I even once attacked them, all the details I'll post in a report from the last 20 years of my reign, tomorrow.

All I'm saying is that attacking Hungary was justified from my point of view.

Regards,
EC

My reign is going to be next in the row.
So i have some questions, 'cause it's my 1st PBEM.

1.It's GA campaign - so if i reach max points available (for Poles - by conquesting) should i focus on further expansion of realms(ultimate goal - global domination)?

2.May I use spies to provoke rebellions and use emissaries to bribe rebel warlords as an alternative to direct aggression on neighbours?

3. May assassins be used?

4. Is killing(suicide attack of assassination) of own heirs allowed to provide most promising(and maybe young) candidate for throne?


Buka

Ok
1. Conquesting is ok but as long as we don't do it without good reason if it's against a non-excommed Catholic nation.

2. You can do whatever you want to get the land but i don't think we have enough of an economy to start bribing people yet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

3. Assasins may be used to get rid of a annoyin agent but they can only be used on : Inquisitors (cos they're really annoying) Emmisarys, any muslim agent, any orthodox agent and any general.
This means it's a no-no if you want to kill any priests or Cardinals and also THE POPE. Yes i know he can be annoying but in those days you wouldn't kill god representative on earth would you? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/rolleyes.gif ?

4. Um technically no...but since it doesn't show on the savegame you could do it and not tell us, but there is a fun element to trying to rule with a screwed up royal line (look at the French one for instance).

hope this answered your questions
Chimpyang

Thanks Chimpyang.

another question...
Is it ok to use save-reload(sometimes many times) method of playing? Or i should be responsible for my actions and face consequences during playing this PBEM campaign

hmm....responsibility..definately..otherwise it becomes a little too easy as we'd just re-fight a closely lost battle. Plus it wasnt eally how the game was designed to be played was it?
Dont worry about the consequences..things happen during a PBEm we'll just roll with the punches. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

The Glorious Reign of King Wladyslaw II

part 2 (covers last 20 years of the reign)



AD 1119
After conquering Lithuania and Kiev in 1118, both Prince Henry, and Prince Casimir, decided to assault besieged forts. This gave us complete control over those lands. A slow process of rebuilding and developing new regions had started. The King knew the war with Novgorod would not end soon, and therefore was determined to continue what he had once started. This, unfortunately, was not meant to be his only concern, during the rest of his reign...

AD 1122
This was the year to remember. The Hungarians, a catholic nation that never wanted to accept our offer of an alliance, now attacked us.
Poland invaded This news reached His Majesty the King in his residence in Pomerania, Poland fell to Hungarian forces...

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...ttohungary.jpg

This was an unexpected event and the Polish were completely unprepared to face Hungarian knights led by one of their heirs, Prince Laszlo. But even thought Poland was lost, the enemy did not destroy much, and Krakow castle was well supplied. The King's plan was not, however, to wait. As soon as he realized what the situation was really like, riders were sent to all bordering with Poland provinces to call out the army.

AD 1123
And so the King led his army to retrieve the lost domain. A land of his father, and of father of his father, Poland. The Hungarian Prince who was besieging Krakow castle fled as soon as he heard the news of approaching army. Poland was ours again

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...dretrieved.jpg

(I was really surprised by that Hungarian attack, I didnt want to start from the save but kept playing. It was a bit dangerous for our GA points tho, as Poland was lost in 1122 and the counting of points was scheduled on 1125. Well, anyway I retrieved Poland before that, and so we scored really high.)

AD 1127
Few years later, after Poland was rebuilt, and its garrisons strenghtened, a new attack of the Hungarians took place. An expedition of horse archers and knights under the command of vigoruos Prince Bela arrived to Moldavia. Sadly, our garrison consisting mostly of woodsmen, was not strong enough to resist the enemy. Moldavia was lost At least so it seemed...

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...ldavialost.jpg

AD 1128
The King was mad at his advisers and field generals. But having in mind that his royal brother, Prince Casimir is stationing with an army in Kiev, the King sent him a letter in which he ordered him to gather an army and lift the siege of Cetatea Alba castle in Moldavia.

Unfortunately, Prince Casimir did not have enough forces to perform a successful counter strike and protect Kiev at the same time. In this situation the solution was to hire mercenaries to support forces liberating Moldavia and guard Kiev against Novgorod's raids. There were also some woodsmen called from Volhynia to join the main forces of Prince's army already in Moldavia. The Polish army was stronger in numbers, but the enemy general had more experience in commanding his men.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...esmoldavia.jpg

The battle was very short, and the enemy general (Prince Bela) was killed... An heir to Hungarian throne had lost his life because of the ambitions of his proud and lazy father. Prince Casimir on the other hand proved his skills in fighting as a trully brave knight.

(Chronicles from that year also often point out that while Prince Casimir was fighting in Moldavia, the command over the Kiev's garrison was left to a mercenary general, who happened to be a Hungarian... )

In the same year, the famous Prince Henry (conqueror of Prussia, Volhynia and Lithuania) added Chernigov to our country, cunningly taking advantage of Novgorod's struggle in Volga.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...schernigov.jpg

AD 1129
After conquering Chernigov, Prince Henry assaulted its castle gaining full control over the province.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...schernigov.jpg

This was not the only battle that took place that year tho. Hungarian king wanted to avenge the death of his son Bela and had sent two of his other sons with their armies, one to Poland, and one to Moldavia. As it turned out later, none of siblings was meant to return home alive...

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...endspoland.jpg

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...dsmoldavia.jpg

AD 1130
From now on, until the end of King Wladyslaw II's reign the Hungarians never again attacked. Having lost most of their royalty and other valorous units, they were not much of a threat anymore. Prince Henry, who conquered Chernigov the year before, was now awarded by the King with holdings in Lithuania. By that time he was at the top of his glory.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...igovcatlse.jpg

Following years (1131-1135) brougth a short period of relative peace, only few times disturbed by Novgorod's attempts to recapture Chernigov. There were also diplomatic efforts being made to strengthen Poland's position on the international agenda. But the new King of Hungary did not want to accept the peace treaty. He remembered too well what happened to all of his brothers, and in his stupidity was unable to see the benefits the peace would certainly bring to his realm.

AD 1136
That year Prince Henry led his army again, this time to Smolensk, which was left almost unguarded by the Novgodor. It was a mistake Prince Henry knew how to use to his advantage.

AD 1137
But the very next year the Novgorod retaliated. An army led by its Prince invaded Smolensk. The battle itself was bloody and disastrous for the Polish forces. Prince Henry, the best general of King Wladyslaw II's army had been killed in the battle
He died at he age of 46.


This is King Wladyslaw II a year before he died:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...M1136aking.jpg

And this is the condition of a state at the beginning of King Mieszko III's reign:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...1138astate.jpg

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I consider my reign to be particularly successful.
And so I declare King Wladyslaw II to be known as...

King Wladyslaw II The Great



Regards,
EC

Well played EC - a particularly successful reign, I agree

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Simon Appleton @ Feb. 23 2004,09:08)]Well played EC - a particularly successful reign, I agree

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Thank you sir. It's nice to hear something like that from a veteran.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Regards,
EC

hmm i must agree the reason for the war is extremely valid (those un-christian Hungarians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/angry.gif ) I'm pretty amazed at how much land you managed to swipe from Novogrod and the Rebels http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif Poland's all set to be a great nation http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Chimpyang @ Feb. 23 2004,10:46)]I'm pretty amazed at how much land you managed to swipe from Novogrod and the Rebels http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

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Well, what can I say.... It's Total War, isn't it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

Regards,
EC

Hi guys,
I am a bit swamped at work at the moment, had to go in yesterday (sunday) instead of playing, I am afraid I wont be able to get on with the campaign unitl wednesday/thursday evening. Will post then.

Any news from KIng Mieszko III?

We can only presume that his work overtime is taking longer than we/he expected.

Sorry about the delay Finally got ot play some more today:
____

1138 - Invaded Hungary and Carpathia. In Carpathia there are 1,100 Hungarians and only 600 Poles. the commander wisely decided to withdraw. But in Hungary the enemy retreated, massive destruction and looting followed, and when the King returned to Warsaw the coffers were bursting with over 3,000 florins. A tenth is dispatched to placate the Pope who has threatend to excommunicate his most catholic subjects

1139 - The King refused to go to the wedding of Prince Boleslaw and Princess Ingrid of Denmark. Instead he attends the weding of his Aunt with the French Dauphin, but the Clergy are horrified when the King breaks our alliance with catholic England in favour of the excommed French, to placate them the alliance with muslim Egypt is also enede. Scouts report Catholic bandits and Loyalists rebels in Hungary. Sneak attack on Crimea fails.

1140 - In Lithuania many mercenaries are recruited (1,400 fl) as preparations for the final assault on the Russian savages are copmpleted. A bishop is sent to the heathen Finns.

1141 - Balastian's bandits take Hungary, and the Hungarians flee to Carpathia. You would think all those feudal knights would have put up a better fight? Now they will threaten Poland and Moldavia. The King of Hungary refuses a third peace offer.Those mercs are extremely expensive, the treasury is at 300 fl, running a projected loss of 495 fl Must fight Objective - secure Lithuania The campaign strategy:
- Lord Niemoj (0*, 330) --> Moscow, Prince Chort (6*, 220)
- Jagillion (2*, 1,240) --> Novgorod, King Vladimir (5*, 750)
- Boleslaw (2*, 760) --> Smolensk, Lord Dmietriov (0*, 380)
- Lord Miejka in Chernigov with 500 watches the Russians in Prezemsyl and Ryazan, while the Duke of Prussia commands 160 men in Lithuania.

1142 - While the war rages in the East the King attends more weddings in the West, Princesses have been offloaded to Denmark and Sicily. Meanwhile the Byz turned down an offer for one of their Princesses from Prince Kaziemierz, who is increasingly irritated by the lack of action.

But he got action of a different kind, the Hungarians invaded Moldavia, 740 men against 820. Nothing much ot report - they marched up to our positions, exchanged arrow fire, then charged. Woodsmen and urban militia flanked the enemy and Prince Kaz killed the Hungarian general himself. Victory 210 casualties to 440 inflicted and 61 prisoners (ransomed - need cash).

Oh you want to know about the battles in Russia? Well they were lousy, Novgorod and Moscow were abandoned, 1,500 fl looted. But in Smolensk a cornered Prince Andrej (4*) stood his ground, in a very nasty affair the Russians hid their foot in a forest and cavalry a little behind. Prince Boleslaw marched up to them and begin shooting when the Russian vikings and spears charged out. Woodsmen and urban militia marched flanked them, but on the other side of the battle field the enemy cav charged One, then two spears routed (hmmm), the Steppe cav rout (crap), then Russian vikings + peasant rout, followed by spears - Hurray Militia/woods/spears swing about and slug it out with the boyars, not very pretty - 400 dead to 400 killed, and no prisoners. Extra masses are said in all Churches for the Byz inf mercs who saved the day

Meanwhile the Russians from Prezymsyl try to take Chernigov in a half hearted attempt, Lord Herman thumps them (autoresolved).

The Situation as it stands now -
The Russians have:
- Prince Chort (6*) in Ryazan with 160 men.
- 300 men in Prezymsyl.
- 260 men in Crimea.
- King Vlad (5*) has about 1,100 men in Finland, of which only 200 are peasants. Not good, Boleslaw has 1,300 in Novgorod, but those damn Boyars kick ass Garrisons in Moscow and Chernigov are ok, but Lithuania and Kiev are a bit weak.

There are also strong rebels in Hungary and Livonia, and the Hungarians in Carpathia have Feudal Knight from the loyalist revolt (1,100 men in all).


King Miezsko is 26, with one son (3yrs).

Good job with the Russians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif Smolensk was very important. And against all those Boyars I think you could use some Mounted X-bows. And is this true that there are rebels in Lithuania? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif I hope you meant Livonia.
What about the Byzantines, are they now allied with us?


Regards,
EC

What are the GA scores? I'd think we'd be pretty ahead of the field after those victories. This means either Jeff or Buka gets to play against the Mongols

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Chimpyang @ Feb. 29 2004,04:49)]What are the GA scores? I'd think we'd be pretty ahead of the field after those victories. This means either Jeff or Buka gets to play against the Mongols

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I was thinking about that GH invasion. Should we play as if we didnt know the Mongols would invade? Because they (o_loompah, Jeff, Buka) dont really have to go and take Khazar, Volga, and Ryazan as these lands are not really valuable. They can leave it to the Russians and the Byz and expand elsewhere...

You didnt explicitly state what to do about it Chimpyang. And will there be a second turn later?

Regards,
EC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ Feb. 29 2004,03:15)]Good job with the Russians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif Smolensk was very important. And against all those Boyars I think you could use some Mounted X-bows. And is this true that there are rebels in Lithuania? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif I hope you meant Livonia.
What about the Byzantines, are they now allied with us?


Regards,
EC

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I meant Livonia, will edit it above. I am afraid mounted xbows are too expensive, those mercenaries are killing me financially - the only infrastructure I have built is upgrade the castle in Lithuania and a couple of archery places. Anyway the next battle either in Novgorod or Finland many of them will die. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

We arent allied with Byz, they are orthodox so I assume I am allowed to beat them up when I get the chance (hopefully in a few years once the Russians are finished), and also they arent doing to well - from the GA info they have lost Constantinople, I assume to the Turks as the Turks still have Rum and so the egyptians havent gotten that far yet.

Re the mongols I think we should pretend we never heard of them and go on as normal. I inend to take Khazar in any case as Kiev-Chernigov-Muscovy is too long and will get even longer after the Russians are finshed off. Kiev-Khazar is much nicer.

ok...after some though i say it'd be best (and probably more interesting) if we acted as if we didnt know about the GH, in fact i suggest leaving those provinces to the Byz/Turks as they'll provide a barrier (hopefully) for us. Also we wont have to fight a massively logn battle in which we wiupe outm ost of the GH forces, if they're stretched over more provinces we can defeat them more easily. The Byz can be beaten up as much a we like (cos they're orthodox) regardless of alliances.

Regarding the issue of second turns, i'll put all of the names into a hat then the order they come out will be the order of the second turns. (Unless more people join and finish the campaign) does that sound fair?