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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
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Originally Posted by
ReluctantSamurai
Support means that if you fielded an entire army of nothing but teppo, they will likely lose every battle because they will eventually run out of map to skirmish and get caught in melee. But with proper screening, they can potentially devastate enemy formations, making the task of winning the battle easier for the rest of the army...ergo support.
IMHO a support unit is a unit that aids the main fighting unit/s. I can see your logic here, but I feel that if the main attack thrust comes from the Teppo, then the non Teppo units are the support units. This is particularly evidenced by the Teppo unit/s themselves being supported by Yari units ( as support units are not usually ( IMHO ) supported themselves. It remains however, a matter of personal perspective.
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Actually, the demise of the samurai was more due to social upheaval, Westernization if you will, of which the matchlock/flintlock was a part. I was only referring to the battlefield.
As was I... To add to my previous reply ; what of " Isandhlwana" or "Little Big Horn" ?? "Rifles" ( and "modern Rifles" at that ) failed there, ergo Teppo are not the "main factor" here. That is Generalship ( and troop Honour / Valour ) ; both of which apply whichever units you choose / use. They were certainly the decisive factor in the battles herein noted...
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Fine. I can shut the hell up and we can go back to seeing posts in here once or twice a year...:creep:
Ah, so this is talk for talks sake ? ( Rather close to argument for arguments sake IMHO ). You have already stated "We will just have to agree to disagree", so further comments are ( to some degree ) rather futile.
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No, it isn't. Honest question as to what makes for a 'better' STW game.
Ok, maybe... However, I have no wish to expand this "discussion" beyond the original topic... Sorry !!!
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
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what of " Isandhlwana" or "Little Big Horn" ?? "Rifles" ( and "modern Rifles" at that ) failed there, ergo Teppo are not the "main factor" here. That is Generalship ( and troop Honour / Valour ) ; both of which apply whichever units you choose / use. They were certainly the decisive factor in the battles herein noted
And you conveniently left out Nagashino (which pretty much ended the Takeda clan as a Shogunate power-broker), the use of matchlock guns by the Ikko-Ikki in the three battles of Nagashima, and the use of teppo aboard ships in the two Battles of Kizugawaguchi. The most decisive was, of course, Nagashino. Guns had their role....
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It remains however, a matter of personal perspective.
Ahhh...argument for the sake of argument~;) Whatever perspective you choose, in STW the teppo was most definitely not this: "teppo ashigaru (or any ashigaru) have no intrinsic value, they are poorer units on general terms, thus one would think it obvious that it is basically a waste of limited cash and slots to bother with them when compared to other units".
Why else would they be restricted in MP, and be subject to stat-tweaking because they were overpowered? (If you read through the links provided)
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
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Originally Posted by
ReluctantSamurai
And you conveniently left out Nagashino (which pretty much ended the Takeda clan as a Shogunate power-broker), the use of matchlock guns by the Ikko-Ikki in the three battles of Nagashima, and the use of teppo aboard ships in the two Battles of Kizugawaguchi. The most decisive was, of course, Nagashino. Guns had their role....
No I was not !!! :furious3: I was quoting battles were the Bows and "Spears" beat "Rifles" ; no more and no less !! Stop jumping to unjustified conclusions !
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"teppo ashigaru (or any ashigaru) have no intrinsic value, they are poorer units on general terms, thus one would think it obvious that it is basically a waste of limited cash and slots to bother with them when compared to other units".
Whose quote was this ? It was NOT mine, and therefore should not be used as a rebuttal against me. :crazy:
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Why else would they be restricted in MP, and be subject to stat-tweaking because they were overpowered? (If you read through the links provided)
Why do you not appear to accept that you are a good general and that Teppo alone are not the main source of your success ??? :wall:
This conversation is over. ~:wave:
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
I'll try to make this real simple...
The only way we can fight/damage/destroy a teppo-unit is to attack it. It is the only way. And yes, we are actually allowed to attack it, as much as we want. Now, we can't stare it to death or wait it to death or some such BS. We have too attack it, and that means close combat (with the exception of archers, who can fire too), there are no other alternative ways to fight it. Once we do attack a teppo-unit, and get to close combat (including the archers here) - its finished. Every time (a 1 vs 1 will illustrate that)... If its declared a "support unit", "ranged unit" or "regular unit", is entirely irrelevant as all of the above are still valid and true all the same. The overall circumstance is valid to ANY unit. In order to fight/damage/destroy it, we must attack it somehow. Period.
Ergo, teppo-units can/will only function properly in battle if the enemy allows them to operate freely (disregarding weather-requirements and penalties here. And bridges). Once that "permission" is withdrawn by the enemy, the teppo-unit can do little else but to flee, once it become targeted for attack - this will be true regardless of the unit attacking them. Any (healthy enough) unit will do. Again, if it comes to close combat, they are finished. Again, every unit will kill them (teppos) in combat once caught.
If that still sounds like a good unit to you, then you wouldn't know good, even if it jumped up and kicked you in the face. Just saying. Anyhow, I was basically done with all this in my previous post, more so as of this one. If you can't or won't get it at this stage, you probably never will... I'm out of here...
- A
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
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Originally Posted by
Axalon
... teppo-units can/will only function properly in battle if the enemy allows them to operate freely (disregarding weather-requirements and penalties here. And bridges). Once that "permission" is withdrawn by the enemy, the teppo-unit can do little else but to flee, once it become targeted for attack - this will be true regardless of the unit attacking them. Any (healthy enough) unit will do. Again, if it comes to close combat, they are finished. Again, every unit will kill them (teppos) in combat once caught.
This matches my ( limited ) experience to date... :2thumbsup:
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
@DEB8
~:smoking: Chill.
We're talking about a 15 year old game...nothing that really matters, but hopefully fun to still talk about. If I offended you...my apologies:shame:
As to me being a good general...against the AI maybe. Never played MP (got here too late for that) so I wouldn't make the claim:shrug:
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there are no other alternative ways to fight it. Once we do attack a teppo-unit, and get to close combat (including the archers here) - its finished.
Very true and obvious.
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Once that "permission" is withdrawn by the enemy, the teppo-unit can do little else but to flee, once it become targeted for attack - this will be true regardless of the unit attacking them. Any (healthy enough) unit will do.
And of course I just sit there having a cup of tea while you waltz in to decimate my guns:crazy: As a user of musket on a regular basis, I can pretty much deny anyone "permission" to engage my teppo in melee. There are various formations involving teppo and their screen (which anyone with interest can google) that, if used properly, insure no melee unit reaches the guns (unless you completely fall asleep). Once I gained enough experience with those formations, only twice that I can recall has the AI ever gotten to my musket. This is over hundreds of battles fought using teppo, all on the expert setting. It's tried many, many times, but only twice succeeded.
A few quotes from a 2007 discussion about dealing with guns:
[Phred]
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The first time I came up against an all gunpowder army was when I had nearly conquered the map and there was one rebel province with an all arquebus army. So I charged in with all heavy calvalry and was pretty shocked when the first volley decimated the units leading the charge. I won the battle, but I'll never forget that lead heavy calvary unit evaporating before my eyes.
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I have found that an army with 4-5 musketeers in a good defensive location is nigh unbeatable
[Togakure]
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Last night I played the opening of the 1580 campaign as the Shimazu and attacked Hizen (Tokugawa) on the very first turn using every unit with which I could reach that province (I did attack by sea from Satsuma, with Daimyo Yoshihisa commanding). In this scenario you have an inferior army, but two arquebusiers. I chose a fine day to attack, and used a classic Shimazu strategy. Because the Tokugawa outnumbered me considerably, they attacked as defenders. I faked a retreat to the rise behind me, and waited until they were very close before ordering my two-row-deep guns to fire on Honda Heihachiro's Yari Cav Taisho unit and the one other Yari cav unit. He was killed instantly, and after a very short engagement, his army routed. Despite a much smaller army with no cavalry, against an army with twice as many archers, two yari cav units and 3 ninja units, the Shimazu won with relative ease. Try it. It's a good battle for illustrating how guns can turn the tide against an otherwise superior army.
[Veho Nex]
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No matter how experienced i am i always loose 80% of my army when fighting with or against arbusque
Not quite the walk in the park that -A makes it seem:rolleyes:
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If that still sounds like a good unit to you, then you wouldn't know good, even if it jumped up and kicked you in the face.
Insulting, but hey, the only way the two of us could settle it would be to go head-to-head~D Too bad MP is no longer available~:smoking:
At the risk of repeating myself....back in the hey-day of MP around here, there were some exceptional players using guns in STW. Some were so adept at using them, that it became a borderline cheat (much like the 'super-Ashi' bug), and any MP army was restricted to a maximum of 4. That carries more weight with me than your disdain, along with my own personal experience at using them.
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
"Apology" accepted ( I guess ).
Despite all of the quotes you have listed and posted. Axalons comments still match my very limited experience to date... :shrug:
End of. ~:wave:
[ For Drone : Should this post not be closed too ?? ]
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
DEB8,
I have nowhere as exhausted and unwanted relation to RS as I have with some other members of this forum (of certain closed threads, for instance). I mean, I barely know the guy... I just don't buy his assessment, analysis and evaluation of teppos (along with how he has distinguished and used "strawmen"-argument(s)). Other then that I have no problems with RS. We simply don't agree on this stuff. What I had to say about it, I have already said. And I imagine the same is probably true for him (RS)... I don't think there is much more too it...
Btw, Droner is not a moderator in this section... He can do diddly here...
- A
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
Dunno why the thread should be closed~:confused: But last word anyway....
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Axalons comments still match my very limited experience to date
That doesn't make his assessment correct. But at least you admit to having limited experience with them~;)
To say that teppo (and YA) are worthless units shows a complete lack of understanding of the history of STW.
When STW was released, unit stats (including teppo) were reasonably balanced and everyone was happy with the results. MP games were numerous and sometimes epic, with several players reaching legendary status for their gameplay. Then along came WE/MI (v1.02) with the introduction of new units + the Mongols, and everything got whacky. Gunpower was increased 3-fold (amongst other bad decisions by the devs) and the result on MP games was dramatic. They basically became gunfights with players bringing 8 WM & 8 Musket or 8 Cav & 8 Musket...etc, etc...and if you didn't bring likewise, you got annihilated. The term "Gun Monkey" became popular.
There were two results coming from the v1.02 changes: the first was the Rule of 4---you could not include more than 4 of any unit type in your army; the second was a call for a re-balancing of unit stats more in line with the original game. There were several from the Org community that participated, and v1.03 came into being. Many players did not like the revision because it toned down guns to a more reasonable level. Still a dangerous unit to deal with, but no longer the battlefield sweeper it was in 1.02.
In the words of Puzz3D, who was the Org member tasked with re-working gun stats:(posted to save you time digging in the archives)
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Although the infantry rush has a better chance of success now because it can actually reach and engage the musket in h2h, the early monk rush should still fail as long as you have enough front line units to hold up the monks while your muskets shoot. The important thing is that heavy cav, naginata cav, monks and no-dachi units should be able to charge and engage an unprotected musket in h2h without routing just from the gun fire.
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.....the musket now tends to dominate online games. There are many factors combining to make the musket an unbalanced unit, such as: hold formation being too effective, the defend combat value being too high, units not marching quickly, cavalry hesitating when it charges, lack of a power gradient in the bullet's ballistics, lack of a consensus on kills/volley, lack of a consensus on range, lack of a consensus on reload and the use of maps like ironing board which maximizes the musket's potential. If you play maps with trees on them, the musket looses a lot of it's effectiveness.
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The powerful guns are there to stop the infantry rush, and they do that. They stop it cold. However, a consequence is that a few gun units can kill a whole army. That removes any need for the player who wins the gun battle to engage in h2h. So, the dilema is that, if you loose the gun battle, your rush option is effectively removed. The guns eliminate the early rush, and the late rush. You can try to use cavalry to get to the guns, but, if yari infantry are protecting the guns, you won't be successful.
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The infantry was slowed down by 25%, but the gun reload was only lengthened by 14%. So, the guns picked up an advantage there against the infantry rush. Also, at power 4, the musk gets about the same kills "on the target unit" that they got in WE/MI v1.0 because accuracy was increased to cut down on backround kills. Archers do better against guns in v1.02 because the gun's armor was reduced, but the archer does not beat the musk. Rain does greatly reduce the effectiveness of the musk, and trees makes them useless.
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Muskets dominate the game unless it's raining or the map has lots of trees. A 250 koku musket typically gets anywhere from 60 to 120 kills. If you get 40 to 60 kills with the 300 koku archer, you are doing well. Those two units are about the same price, and they should be closer in kills if you want unrestricted use of guns and still have balance in the game. From what I can see, 4 archers are at a considerable disadvantage to 4 muskets. This means with a 4 gun max you have to take the 4 muskets to maintain parity. I think you need a bit more of a restriction like 2 muskets + 2 arq's max to come into balance with the 4 archers.
There are many other quotes referring to the overpowered nature of guns in STW, from players other than Puzz (I quote him because he spent hundreds of hours re-balancing them for 1.03 and probably understood how they work better than anyone), and for that you can dig into the archives yourself...start about pg 60 and work forward to roughly pg 50 (and besides, it's a fascinating read from the hey-day of STW in 2002).
All-in-all, guns in the hands of an experienced player are still a major force on the battlefield, even using v1.03 stats. And contrary to what Axalon says, they are not easy to kill. Frontal charges are almost always suicide...flanking is still the best option, or...shoot them to pieces if you can.
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Droner is not a moderator in this section
If you check the Moderator List, there is noone officially in charge of moderating STW:shrug:
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
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Originally Posted by
ReluctantSamurai
That doesn't make his assessment correct. ...
By that very token, it does not make it false/wrong either... What it does make it, is valid...
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Originally Posted by
ReluctantSamurai
To say that teppo (and YA) are worthless units shows a complete lack of understanding of the history of STW.
I never said "teppos (and ashis) are worthless", that is all on you... I said "they are inferior, to other troops in general" (or some such), and that is hardly the same thing, now is it? No units in STW are utterly worthless. Yet you present your case here as if I did say that. Now that's a strawman if I ever saw one, and I think its pretty poor form too. Do me some justice in the same way I have bothered/tried to do you some.
Next time that is, as I think this topic is done... I know I am, anyways...
- A
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
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I never said "teppos (and ashis) are worthless", that is all on you
True...poor choice of words.
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Now that's a strawman if I ever saw one
Nah...the Gun Monkeys knew what they were doing, and ruined MP in the process.
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Do me some justice in the same way I have bothered/tried to do you some.
I guess I'll have to pay attention the next time good jumps up and tries to kick me in the face~D
:bow:
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
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Originally Posted by
Axalon
DEB8,
I have nowhere as exhausted and unwanted relation to RS as I have with some other members of this forum (of certain closed threads, for instance). I mean, I barely know the guy... I just don't buy his assessment, analysis and evaluation of teppos (along with how he has distinguished and used "strawmen"-argument(s)). Other then that I have no problems with RS. We simply don't agree on this stuff. What I had to say about it, I have already said. And I imagine the same is probably true for him (RS)... I don't think there is much more too it...
Noted. :2thumbsup:
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Btw, Droner is not a moderator in this section... He can do diddly here...
My mistake - sorry ! :embarassed: Still in MTW mode there.... :yes:
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
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Originally Posted by
ReluctantSamurai
But at least you admit to having limited experience with them~;)
Limited ( when compared with yourself... )
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To say that teppo (and YA) are worthless units shows a complete lack of understanding of the history of STW.
I ( myself ) never said that. Axalon may ( or may not ) have...
[ It's very confusing ( to one and all ) reading your replies ; if you reply to both myself and Axalon in the same post, without "stating" whom you are quoting. :crazy: ]
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If you check the Moderator List, there is noone officially in charge of moderating STW:shrug:
Noted. Sorry ( still in MTW mode there.... ~:) ).
[ Oh, by the way, re all that other stuff you posted : :shrug: :wall: :Zzzz: ]
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
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Originally Posted by
ReluctantSamurai
True...poor choice of words.
I guess I'll have to pay attention the next time good jumps up and tries to kick me in the face~D
:bow:
The end ( please ). :quiet: ~:wave:
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
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Oh, by the way, re all that other stuff you posted :
If you found it all boring, too bad. Teppo aside, to get a feel for STW in its day is worth the read IMHO (the old archival stuff)
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The end ( please )
If you've said all you've wished to say, there's noone here compelling you to post:shrug:
If someone else jumps in with their 2cents, I have no qualms posting further.
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
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Originally Posted by
ReluctantSamurai
If you found it all boring, too bad. Teppo aside, to get a feel for STW in its day is worth the read IMHO (the old archival stuff)
Not boring - just "irrelevant" ( as 'agreed to disagree' applies... ). :shrug:
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If you've said all you've wished to say, there's noone here compelling you to post
True ( mandatory responses aside that is ). ~:handball:l
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If someone else jumps in with their 2cents, I have no qualms posting further.
That's OK...
[ ~:wave: ~:wave: ]
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
i make use of the rabble by adding 2 in the main armies to work as chasers during rout since they are faster than normal infantry,
it'd be great to have cavalry off the bat but alas, ashi is better than nuffing.
i also got use of them to suppress rebel spam, placing around 3 on a newly conquered region to make it hold
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Re: When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
These uses are standard for any clan...
