HA in RTW

@Dough: My primary problem against these light lancers was the fact that even my Noblemen lancers had great difficulties to beat them sometimes - at least on (very hard)/very hard - if you have them in the first ten years or so at all...

I had annihilated the Thracians and was becoming the number 1 scorewise; The others didn't wanted it, so I was in a matter of two turns also at war with Dacia, Macedonia, Rom, Pontus, Greece, all of them breaking an alliance with me; So I had to use my units rather well... :charge:


Talking about controlling the HA and other units:


The small map in the left upper corner is key when using many HA, especially against light cavalry. With good grouping and "tab" one can pretty fast identify the unit which is going to have troubles. Now after you have selected the chased cavalry unit running towards the edge I take off skirmish and immediatly doubleclick on a safe spot of the stratmap. It is best if you learn to do so on the small stratmap itself. With some experience with the angle of directionchange it usually works fine so that I can micro another unit in the meantime; After a short period of time I reselect it and put it once again on A.I skirmish..

So with Small Groups and tab selecting your guys work well if you get used to it. But there are some problems too with it. For example I use a group "1" consisting of three Numidian Cavalry units and tab to scroll through them. So I press "1", selecting all and "tab", which gives me not the first one of the group, but the second one. This limits the usefullness of the "tab" which is still handy.


About "supporting" units:

I've used the Camelborn troops to suppport my Seleucid Milita Cavalry, and it really helps against other cavalry. Still War Elephants and Cataphracts/Camelcataphracts are a huge step above and are a incredible powerful addition to your Persiancavalry, as enemy cavalry will lose horrible against this guys.

So only massed archers with very good infantry could pose a thread, but usually superior tactics will finish also this danger of, especially since the flaming arrows seem not be the favorite of the enemy archers..

Cheers
OA

BTW er I forget a major bonus for HA and all missiles in RTW:

Experience increases also the ranged skill making your guys more and more deadly. High value missiles will actually kill now better than low value counterparts, so it is really worth to keep a close look on your lads

My best buy was a Slinger from Rhodus which I buyed at turn two as Seleucid an which became a 2 sliver slinger after only 3 turns, without loosing a single man ~D

OA

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Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

How are the Bedouin Archers? I haven't hired any because Parthians there's plenty of cavalry archers.

Bedouin Warriors saved my bacon once, and Arab Cavalry a couple of times.

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They're slower than horse archers but have much better armor rating and they have a shield, too. Their total defense against arrows shooting them from the front is even slightly better than Persian cavalry. Their melee attack is just as crappy as that of regular horse archers but with the bonus against horses, you have the option to countercharge light cavalry using them. They would take significant losses, however.

Experience is very good now. I have a gold chevron HA, some silver ones and some Persian cavalry with silver chevrons as well. One Persian cavalry has 3 silver chevrons and a total missile value of 17.

Re: Experience

Non-stop war with Egypt leaves me with a huge veteran army that will conquer the world -- IF I can ever break the @#$% Egyptians.

Kill all you want. Egypt will make more. The average quality of their troops is improving, too. It's still early in my Parthian campaign (hard difficulty.) At least a half-dozen of my heroic victory markers spangle the map. My top general is Nidintu-Bel, "the Horseman," which was a promotion over "the Mighty." He has 10 stars and an army of veterans.

In about 30 battles, with as many as four or five in one turn, I've had one defeat. I ran out of arrows and withdrew after killing 872 Seleucids. I lost 7.

At least 10,000 (Seleucids and @#$% Egyptians) killed (large unit size) would be a conservative estimate. This includes at least six family members including a @#$% Egyptian faction heir.

The Seleucids were sent reeling and are on the slide. The @#$% Egyptians just keep coming. They just took Damascus from the weakened Seleucids, which they're fighting while fighting me too. They are also at war with the Numidians. The Seleucids and I are de facto allies now, although I can't get a formal alliance. I saved Damascus more often than they did until it finally fell while I was killing @#$% Egyptians elsewhere.

The end result of this winning streak of crushing victories? Two provinces taken from the @#$% Egyptians; the wastelands of Palmyra and Arabia. I took Bostra for one turn, but had to pillage and abandon it. My big gains -- Assyria and Babylonia -- were taken from the Seleucids. I also took Phraaspa from rebels and Campus Alanni from the Scythians.

I accepted a ceasefire with the Scythians and have now invaded the Armenians, which should be a cakewalk compared to fighting @#$% Egyptians. I fully expect the war with Egypt to rage on, but I want to make some progress somewhere.

When I take Egypt, I'm going to plunder every town just out of spite.


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OA, I'll get back to your points. Just had to rant a bit.

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Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens

My primary problem against these light lancers was the fact that even my Noblemen lancers had great difficulties to beat them sometimes - at least on (very hard)/very hard - if you have them in the first ten years or so at all...

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I wish I could help, OA. I spend more time in the desert (fighting @#$% Egyptians), where their Desert Cavalry evaporate as soon as they come within sight of a camel.

As for the war against everybody, glad to hear you're not bored. ~;) Kind of like playing the Hungarians, isn't it?

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That's a good tip on using the mini-map to find "cornered" units. I'll try that tonight.

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[quote]I've used the Camelborn troops to suppport my Seleucid Milita Cavalry, and it really helps against other cavalry. Still War Elephants and Cataphracts/Camelcataphracts are a huge step above and are a incredible powerful addition to your Persiancavalry, as enemy cavalry will lose horrible against this guys.[quote]

Camels to panic enemy horses while your horses charge from another direction is deadly. Chariots, for example, can go out of control just like elephants. Occasionally, I've had camels start a panic while a melee-cav attack and massed HA tore the chariots to pieces before the enemy drivers could regain control.

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So only massed archers with very good infantry could pose a thread, but usually superior tactics will finish also this danger of, especially since the flaming arrows seem not be the favorite of the enemy archers.

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Superior tactics and superior mass. The ability to concentrate cavalry units on the strategic map is the real "secret weapon" here. A few light units of cavalry can make the "mobility gap" even worse. They can block the path of opposing armies, then refuse battle, thanks to their speed. Since captains don't seem to get vices, you can withdraw all you want.

Skirmishers like peltasts seem useless against HA. I don't think slingers have the range, either.

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Cheers
OA

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You bet.

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Originally Posted by andrewt

They're slower than horse archers but have much better armor rating and they have a shield, too. Their total defense against arrows shooting them from the front is even slightly better than Persian cavalry. Their melee attack is just as crappy as that of regular horse archers but with the bonus against horses, you have the option to countercharge light cavalry using them. They would take significant losses, however.

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Hey, these troops can be used with the "one-two" combination described earlier: Camels to panic horses, melee cavalry to assist. With the high valor units and generals from numerous battles, the other side's horses will panic first.

Hmm, ok, they definitely need to work on skirmishing. I was doing some HA battles, and had the typical "run for the borders" going on. So I was turning off skirmishing, moving them myself, and then turning it back on.

This worked until one of the enemy units got between my HA and the border. Apparently, my HA decided that proper skirmishing tactics require running through the enemy unit. Needless to say, they were decimated.

Ok, so I figure it's time to withdraw. One of my units is at the border, so I withdraw them right away. Do they run over the border? Nope, they turn and try and run through a unit that was chasing them. Another unit down.

Hmm. Ok, so I try and manage a unit to get them away from the unit that is after them, and get them to the "right" border. But because of the other routing units, they panic and rout too. But instead of routing for an open border, you guessed it, they rout right through the unit that was chasing them.

So that was 3 HA units down, all because the AI's method of picking a path to take is extremely bad. And it would be a relatively simple thing to deal with.

1) Always skirmish away from a unit.
2) If at or near border, skirmish to the left or right.
3) Always rout or withdraw along a clear path.

These things would seem to be common sense. Especially (3). I mean, if you are in a battle, and you panic and flee, do you think you'd be fleeing towards or away from the enemy? I know which way I'd be going.

Bh

Don't they always skirmish away from the enemy? The can sometimes go into an enemy when trying to avoid another though. As for the retreating stuff, I believe they try to go to the side they originally entered from. So if they're on the opposite side of the map they'll try to make it back to the other to regroup with their army, as running into the enemy controlled lands would probably result in getting killed. The AI is fairly good about not getting caught up on the map edge, though I have witnessed it once or twice with corners.

This is only from my limited exeperience using Briton Light Chariots and watching the AI's skirmishers though.

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Originally Posted by ChaosLord

Don't they always skirmish away from the enemy? The can sometimes go into an enemy when trying to avoid another though.

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You'd think so, but you'd be wrong. That example I posted above isn't the only time I've had them skirmish straight into the enemy. As as it was the only enemy unit within a large radius, I don't believe it had anything to do with "avoiding another".

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As for the retreating stuff, I believe they try to go to the side they originally entered from. So if they're on the opposite side of the map they'll try to make it back to the other to regroup with their army, as running into the enemy controlled lands would probably result in getting killed. The AI is fairly good about not getting caught up on the map edge, though I have witnessed it once or twice with corners.

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Again, that's what I'd have thought, except I've seen it not happen that way too many times. More often with the AI, of course, since it's routing in my games more than I am. But I've seen them scatter in all 4 directions. And exit the map on all 4 sides. So if that's possible, which is obviously is, wouldn't it make sense to have units rout away from the enemy?

Bh

I've noticed some pretty weird behavior around the borders too, and not just by HA. Sometimes bodyguard units that I've chased there act, well, confused. They won't cross the border unless they rout, so they turn around and make suicide charges. Or just mill around there while my HA fill them with arrows.

My biggest problem with HA on the borders is the inability to "roll up" a strung out formation on the run. I thought you could before, buy you can't. Hitting the "-" button stops the formation.

This is serious, because it's much more difficult to escape from a corner when the unit's in a long, strung-out firing line. In MTW, i'd just hit "Wedge" formation and squeeze out every time. That option's gone.

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Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

Re: Experience

Non-stop war with Egypt leaves me with a huge veteran army that will conquer the world -- IF I can ever break the @#$% Egyptians.

Kill all you want. Egypt will make more. The average quality of their troops is improving, too. It's still early in my Parthian campaign (hard difficulty.) At least a half-dozen of my heroic victory markers spangle the map. My top general is Nidintu-Bel, "the Horseman," which was a promotion over "the Mighty." He has 10 stars and an army of veterans.

In about 30 battles, with as many as four or five in one turn, I've had one defeat. I ran out of arrows and withdrew after killing 872 Seleucids. I lost 7.

At least 10,000 (Seleucids and @#$% Egyptians) killed (large unit size) would be a conservative estimate. This includes at least six family members including a @#$% Egyptian faction heir.

The Seleucids were sent reeling and are on the slide. The @#$% Egyptians just keep coming. They just took Damascus from the weakened Seleucids, which they're fighting while fighting me too. They are also at war with the Numidians. The Seleucids and I are de facto allies now, although I can't get a formal alliance. I saved Damascus more often than they did until it finally fell while I was killing @#$% Egyptians elsewhere.

The end result of this winning streak of crushing victories? Two provinces taken from the @#$% Egyptians; the wastelands of Palmyra and Arabia. I took Bostra for one turn, but had to pillage and abandon it. My big gains -- Assyria and Babylonia -- were taken from the Seleucids. I also took Phraaspa from rebels and Campus Alanni from the Scythians.

I accepted a ceasefire with the Scythians and have now invaded the Armenians, which should be a cakewalk compared to fighting @#$% Egyptians. I fully expect the war with Egypt to rage on, but I want to make some progress somewhere.

When I take Egypt, I'm going to plunder every town just out of spite.


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OA, I'll get back to your points. Just had to rant a bit.

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You want to know how to break the Egyptians do you? Well it's easy one word really, Jerusalem. Take Jerusalem from the Egyptians and you will dry up their massive income. Speaking from experience as the Egyptians themselfs and the Seleucids Jerusalem can have an income of over 4000 denarii per turn. You don't even have to conquer Jerusalem it has a rather large cultural penalty right from the start against the egyptians so if you just besiege the city it will probably rebel against the pharaohs servants.

Salamis is also important. It has huge trade income with Sidon and Jerusalem. I play on normal/normal and it took around 4-5 heroic victories w/ battle markers before I was able to weaken them considerably.

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Originally Posted by lars573

You want to know how to break the Egyptians do you? Well it's easy one word really, Jerusalem. Take Jerusalem from the Egyptians and you will dry up their massive income. Speaking from experience as the Egyptians themselfs and the Seleucids Jerusalem can have an income of over 4000 denarii per turn. You don't even have to conquer Jerusalem it has a rather large cultural penalty right from the start against the egyptians so if you just besiege the city it will probably rebel against the pharaohs servants.

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Your post has arrived in a nick of time.

I didn't get a chance to play much last night. I am tired of frontal battles along the Damascus-Palmyra corridor, so I moved my main army south. My plan was to get my veteran, mobile, all-cavalry army where I could strike Damascus, Jerusalem, or Bostra. Surely the @#$% Egyptians couldn't be strong everywhere.

The war has drawn a huge @#$% Egyptian occupation force into Damascus, and a large, well-equipped field army. I annihilated a small @#$% Egyptian army on the east bank of the Jordan. Scouting shows Jerusalem is almost defenseless and within striking distance.

I was wondering whether I should risk a lunge across the Jordan, whether it would do any good if I couldn't stay there long enough for it to fall in siege. I'll give it a shot. Thanks.

I can completely sympathize with you. I'm playing the Armenians (again), and have run into the mighty Egyptian empire. They are at war with just me and the Seleucid, who have been whittled down to 2 provinces. I destroyed Pontus, and took a few provinces from Parthia, so I was feeling pretty good. And then the Egyptians come along.

So far it's been an entirely defensive war on my part. I'm mainly playing HA armies, which work decently against the Egyptians, except for their &@$#@ Desert Cavalry. As they have 80 men (large army size), I can't take them down fast enough with arrows to prevent them from hitting the HA (with the typical "chase to the edge" system). So far I've managed to take out their armies, but they've got quite a few full stacks wandering around. Luckily, mainly near the Seleucid.

But I can't figure out how I'm going to take them down. I'm still at war with the Parthians, as well as the Sythians, so I can't afford to leave my provinces lightly defended. But I only make about 3K Denarii a turn, which leaves very little for army building. Right now I'm tempted to make the largest combined army I can manage, and try and sack one of their towns. I should get a nice payoff from it, which might let me have some luck expanding. Although the Armenian cities have quite poor farming, so I can barely grow them at all.

Let me know how the strike on Jerusalem goes, if it works for you, I might make it my choice as well.

Bh

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Originally Posted by Bhruic

Let me know how the strike on Jerusalem goes, if it works for you, I might make it my choice as well.

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Will do. I'll post it here.

A few camels and Arabic light cavalry, hired as mercs in the desert provinces, work wonders against desert cavalry. The camels spook them, then the light cav rips them up. Maintenance cost for one of those mercs is only $10 more than for peasants.

I've never been a big fan of using mercs in any of the TW series. Something about it just seems too "easy". Probably the fact that I can head out with an extremely light force and then buy 5+ units right before engaging.

But maybe I'll have to make some more use of them. I've started to produce some cataphract archers as an alternative - any light cav charging them will be in for a bit of a surprise.

Bh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lars573

You want to know how to break the Egyptians do you? Well it's easy one word really, Jerusalem. Take Jerusalem from the Egyptians and you will dry up their massive income. Speaking from experience as the Egyptians themselfs and the Seleucids Jerusalem can have an income of over 4000 denarii per turn. You don't even have to conquer Jerusalem it has a rather large cultural penalty right from the start against the egyptians so if you just besiege the city it will probably rebel against the pharaohs servants.

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Worked beautifully.

Also, I discovered something new and useful: cavalry fragments.

I wanted to check out if there were any big @#$% Egyptian armies close by. I had three cavalry units which, after merging and so forth, only had 2-4 men apiece.

I sent these "fragments" across the river first to scout in all directions. The coast was clear. I besieged Jerusalem, attacking from the spot just across the river. I had an all-cavalry army and didn't make any siege weapons. This was a mistake.

When the @#$% Egyptians counterattacked, their main army marched down from the north and used the same crossing over the Jordan. I was higher than them and beat them decisively. The enemy reinforcements from Jerusalem had to march uphill and arrived exhausted and too late. They never stood a chance.

Jerusalem had a garrison of one man after the battle. There was mercenary infantry available to hire. If I'd had one ram, I would have plundered and burned Jerusalem.

Instead, the city revolted, which was good enough. I checked the charts afterward. @#$% Egyptian production plunged more than a quarter of its whole value. We were equal. :2thumbsup:

There was another army coming down from the north, however, from the cost. That's when I did something that needs to be corrected in a patch or expansion. I surrounded the army with cavalry fragments. The next turn the attacked fragment withdrew and my main army had time and space to escape.

I went into the desert and took on some fresh reinforcements. The @#$% Egyptian army I ran from is now about to die before it can finish the siege of Jerusalem. Also, some mercenary infantry of mine is besieging Bostra. Damascus and other enemy cities are stripped of garrisons. Hopefully, the Seleucids will hit the depleted garrison in Damascus.

I conquered Jerusalem as the Parthians. It's making around 500-600 in land trade per province among 5 provinces. It's making more per province on sea exports including 1000+ with Antioch. Conquering Salamis also is damaging against the Egyptians. Sea trade with Salamis is extremely profitable and it gives huge trade income to Jerusalem and Sidon. If you own these three cities, plus Tarsus and Antioch, just build port and port upgrades immediately and you'll never have a money problem again.

From my experience, Egypt's best provinces, moneywise, are Jerusalem, then Salamis, then Sidon.

Yeah this three cities really help your economy, as I found out as a Seleucids ~;)

The Eggies in my Seleucid-game vh/vh were rather dissapointing, maybe due to the Numidian adventure on vh/vh were I was, well slightly outgunned by them in all possible aspects. But it may have been also the early conquest of Sidon, Salamis and Jerusalem, which allowed me to wander into the Nile valley without difficulties, taking Memphis and besieging Theben. Kept my distance from Alexandria as the Plague is there, and started to wonder were the Eggies mighty stacks were, as I defeated unusally few of them.

Well my question got answered, as after two turns two full Eggie stacks with the factionleader himself and loads of chariots turned up in the West, seems that they wanted to do a little walk in the desert...

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To come back to the HA issue:

The ranged attack definatly benefits incredibly more from the upgrades and the experience; Morale is definatly still great, as you don't want to loose the controls over your lads but the other effects are pratically equal to it now.

@Dough: Fine idea for a systematic use of this 2-3 men units, I will try that

Cheers
OA

I managed to snag Babylon from the Egyptians, and the 20% bonus to farming income has really helped out (from the wonder). That should give me enough income to continue the battle.

I highly recommend playing the Armenians to anyone who likes a challenge - they are quite poorly situated, have little income, and are likely to get hit from all sides.

Bh

Discovered a new tactic. I stretched out HA in a very long, thin line that would skirmish with the enemy and wrap around his sides. However, I'd still have some HA left over in big armies.

I started puting some HA way out on the flanks behind the main line in a very long, narrow formation. Four files wide, 13 ranks deep. These units ride hell-for-leather past the flanks of the enemy army and circle around into the rear. I make them run, not worrying about tiredness.

Once there, they are "unfurled" by ordering a move by "stretching" out a new formation, two ranks deep and 27 files wide. They then run more and close in on the rear of the enemy army. The micro needed for all this is possible because the rest of the HA are skirmishing away from the advancing army.

The result -- total envelopment. It's hard for the enemy to keep up his advance when he's being shot at from behind.

Further, I put Persian Cavalry -- a good dual role archer/melee type -- on the wings of the main line. Lighter HA are in the middle, backed by my best melee cav, camels and Arabic mercenary cav. This makes the main line hard to break.