Re: Did Stalin plan to steamroll Europe in 1941?
Did Stalin plan to steamroll into Europe in 1941 - the answer is no. However if one was to look at the overall stragety of Stalin and his methods one can safely guess that yes indeed Stalin wanted to create an Army to steamroll over Germany when the necessity of conflict arrived.
At first glance the non-aggression pact suited both Russia and Germany at the time. It allowed Germany to concentrate its forces in western europe to defeat the French and the English. It allowed Russia to reformulate and rebuild much of its armed forces after Stalin's purges, and the diasters of invading Finland.
One must remember that Russia and Germany were defacto enemies during the Spanish Civil War, each sponsering different sides, and testing out basic equipment and for the Germans testing out some basic tactical operations. The annexing of terrorities that Russia recieved from Germany because of the pact - were used to create a new defensive belt for the Russian Armies while they also rebuilt their offensive and defensive forces. THere are several books out that deal with this issue in a very eye-opening historical prespective - many now available because of the collaspe of the soviet regime and the desire to let the world know more of the Russian contributions to the defeat of Nazi Germany.
Germany read the necessity to attack into Russia correctly - that is if Germany was going to stand a chance to be successful against the Bear that is Russia they had to attack before Russia was completely reorganized and ready to go on the offensive themselves. The non-aggression pact was just an attempt by both sides to delay the conflict so that they could prepare for the eventual conflict between the two. The errors in Germany's plan are also worthy of discussion - but that is a different subject all together.
Re: Did Stalin plan to steamroll Europe in 1941?
@Red Harvest
Keep in mind that the soviet-finnish war was fought in very hard conditions which were devastating also to the german army - they could attack only during a summer - spring, autumn and winter were very cruel to this army.
About the airforce - sure the soviet pilots were bad - I still remember a decription of a fight between 1 Polish fighter vs. 3 soviet in 1939 - it shot down 2 and 1 damaged unsupported.
Still all these remarks doesn't prove that the Red Army wasn't going to attack in 1941 or 1942.
I believe it wouldn't rather be able to get close to Berlin, but could achieve considerable success in the southern front, especially in Romania and Hungary. Still attacking in 1941 unprepared german army would most likely inflict enormous casualities in german forces and the SU really was better prepared for prolonged war.
regards Cegorach/Hetman ~:)
Re: Did Stalin plan to steamroll Europe in 1941?
I have not read the whole topic, but I have my opinion I would like to express, I shall read the topic through later to better understand your views, though I doupt mine will change and thus I write now.
Stalin did plan to attack Germany and conquer eastern Europe. You see the ideas of a world revolution were still strong in the times before the second world war and were only given up completly after Stalins death. Stalin only saw a way to deliver his ideas and that way was by the force of the red army.
Stalin had an army prepared for an attack, that is why it suffered such huge losses when the Germans came, an army prepared for a quick advance is not suited to defend against a well-orginized opponent. It was just a matter of time who attacks first and Hitler was more lucky with the timing.
A couple of weeks before operation Barbarossa the military HQ of the Red Army held a practise war on the maps, with the information gathered from the Russian intelligence about the German army. Half of the generals were responsible for the German army and the other half were in charge of Soviet armed forces. The interesting thing is, that a defencive war was never practised, they only looked through possible plans to attack.
Also when you look at Stalin as a person you know that he would never sit and watch as Germany waged a succesful war while all he gained was The Baltic States and half of Poland...and I think a small part of Rumenia. He wanted to be leader of the world and thus he of course planned an attack on the Germans, he just wanted to wait for them to run out of steam fighting the allies.
Re: Did Stalin plan to steamroll Europe in 1941?
The whole "Barbarossa was a huge success because the Russians were preparing for an offensive" is a giant red herring.
Britain, France, Belgium and Holland spent 9 months preparing a defense against an inevitable German attack, yet we still got a right good kicking from the Germans when the inevitable attack came.
Poland, Norway, France, Belgium, Holland, Greece, Yugoslavia...the list of quick and overwhelming German victories from 39-41 is long, why should Russia be any different? The Germans were really, really good, near unbeatable those first 3 years of war. Even when the tide of war had turned and they were on the defensive, they were still really, really good against overwhelming odds.
I agree with those who say that a clash between Russia and Germany was inevitable and both sides knew it, but Stalin was at least 1 and more like 2 years away from being able to put an army in the field that could compete with the Germans and he knew it.
I do wonder what would have happened had Barbarossa not been postponed 6 weeks so Hitler could bail out Mussolini in the Balkans, but thats another topic.
Re: Did Stalin plan to steamroll Europe in 1941?
Oh, dear, here we go again:
German economic situation:
Germany had no iron. No wood and only about 1/5 of the oil they needed to wage decent war. I.e: the german army could fight 3 months a year being absolutely still the other 9 months.
The iron used by germany came from Sweden. Port of Luleo (sp?). Germany used different and expensive synthetic oils to make up for the lack of fosile oil. Most of germany´s fosile oil came from Rumania.
Now look at the russian situation:
If Stalin planned to DEFEND against a german attack why would he take Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania? These 3 countries would have acted as a buffer zone between USSR and germany in case of a german attack.
Why did the USR need a fleet in the Baltic? It is NOT necessary to defend the national territory. Stalingrad was a key city, but the Tzars have been fortifying that bit od shore for the past 300 years, there is not a bit of land that is not converted in fortress there. The proof is that the ammunitions stored there before the war WERE NOT reinforced in the whole war, and still there were a LOT in reserve.
Now, why did the russians invade Finland? The landscapes are hardly a good reason. Training? Hardly another reason. Stpidity? I dont think Stalin can be accused of that. Now check the map and tell me how far was the russian army from the iron mines. This was the first call to Hitler.
The russian fleet ready to disrupt the only route that brought wood and iron into germany was the second call.
The invasion of Rumania by Zhukov staying 180 km away from the oil reserves was the third call. And so in June od 1941 Hitler considers operation Barbarossa to solve the "russian problem".
Stalin was waiting for Hitler to invade Britain to open the second front.
All this info is documented, I can give you the references if you want them.
Re: Did Stalin plan to steamroll Europe in 1941?
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If Stalin planned to DEFEND against a german attack why would he take Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania? These 3 countries would have acted as a buffer zone between USSR and germany in case of a german attack.
That doesn't make sense (from your point of view). You've just said he took the 3 Baltic states to act as a defensive buffer ???
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Why did the USR need a fleet in the Baltic? It is NOT necessary to defend the national territory.
Because the Baltic Sea borders on part of Russia? Because several countries (Germany, Denmark, Sweden etc) all have access to the Baltic? Because it offers access to the North Sea and the Atlantic when your northern ports are iced up in winter? Because leaving a key body of water bordering on your territory unpatrolled by your navy is taking a chance, to say the least?
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Now, why did the russians invade Finland? The landscapes are hardly a good reason. Training? Hardly another reason. Stpidity? I dont think Stalin can be accused of that
You're right, none of those reasons, although I would accuse Stalin of stupidity on many issues (but not this one)
Russia invaded Finland for several reasons. Finland had long been a part of Russia before gaining autonomy and independance in the early 20th Century. The Finns had contributed to the fight against the communists in the Spanish Civil war. Their government had passed several anti-communist laws in the 30s. Stalin was concerned that Leningrad was only 35 miles from the Finnish border and wanted that border moved back - he offered land elsewhere in exchange (a deal both Mannerheim and, interestingly the Germans backed). Finally Stalin was a bully and he thought Finland would be an easy pushover once his intimidation/diplomacy had failed. So pride, arrogance and a dash of strategic thinking.
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And so in June od 1941 Hitler considers operation Barbarossa to solve the "russian problem".
Hitler "considered" the invasion of Russia in the autumn of 1940, once the invasion of Britain had been called off. And he had been talking about lebensraum to the east for the German people since the 20s, so it was hardly like he suddenly thought "oh, that Stalin chap is about to invade me, I'd better invade him first". Invasion of Russia was on his agenda all along. Deals like the von Ribbentrop/Molotov one were just to buy him time. And Stalin was more than happy with maintaining the status quo. All through the first half of 1941 the Germans became increasingly cold towards their "allies" in Russia, which caused the Russians to in turn work even harder and they became more desperate to please the Germans. HUGE amounts of supplies were sent by the Russians to Germany by train, right up to the invasion. Indeed IIRC they were still sending trainloads of supplies after the invasion, with more trains loaded up and ready to go. I'm at work so I don't have my references to hand, but I also seem to recall that the Russians spent a full day trying to get hold of the German ambassador to confirm the invasion as they couldn't believe they had been invaded. German deserters also told the Russians they were about to be invaded, but they refused believe the intelligence that their "allies" would invade them
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Stalin was waiting for Hitler to invade Britain to open the second front.
All this info is documented, I can give you the references if you want them
All the info put forward in this thread that I've seen is at best circumstantial and at worst irrelevant. I've never read anything that even suggested that Russia was contemplating an invasion of the west, let alone capable of it.
Re: Did Stalin plan to steamroll Europe in 1941?
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That doesn't make sense (from your point of view). You've just said he took the 3 Baltic states to act as a defensive buffer ???
Exactly. The only reason you would have to take the three baltc states is to advance your border further west. Pointless from the defensive point of view, but VERY useful on the offensive, as it allows your troops to strike further into enemy territory in much shorter time.
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Because the Baltic Sea borders on part of Russia? Because several countries (Germany, Denmark, Sweden etc) all have access to the Baltic? Because it offers access to the North Sea and the Atlantic when your northern ports are iced up in winter? Because leaving a key body of water bordering on your territory unpatrolled by your navy is taking a chance, to say the least?
Yes, the baltic borders with russia, but so what? The baltic itself is a trap, and any fleet in the baltc becomes an easy target for the enemy submarines.
I insist in the fact that the russian defences in the baltic coast were more than sufficient to fight off a navy of the size of the german and the british combined.
Sweden was NOT a rival, as the russian troops in Finland had orders to strike into the heart of industrial sweden if sweden started an attack.
I insist, the only reason for having a fleet in the baltic was to disrupt german supply lines that went from Sweden to Northern Prussia, supplying iron and wood.
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Finland had long been a part of Russia before gaining autonomy and independance in the early 20th Century. The Finns had contributed to the fight against the communists in the Spanish Civil war. Their government had passed several anti-communist laws in the 30s. Stalin was concerned that Leningrad was only 35 miles from the Finnish border and wanted that border moved back - he offered land elsewhere in exchange (a deal both Mannerheim and, interestingly the Germans backed). Finally Stalin was a bully and he thought Finland would be an easy pushover once his intimidation/diplomacy had failed. So pride, arrogance and a dash of strategic thinking.
Those are all circumstancial considerations. The german iron came from the mines of Potsdam(sp) and the russian front was in a day´s marching distance from them after the finnish invasion. Of course, having your border further north is good, but that was NOT the main reason.
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Hitler "considered" the invasion of Russia in the autumn of 1940
Wrong. I have to admit I was wrong too, ~;) The first consideration of Barbarossa, originally called "Fritz", was in June of 1940.
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All through the first half of 1941 the Germans became increasingly cold towards their "allies" in Russia, which caused the Russians to in turn work even harder and they became more desperate to please the Germans. HUGE amounts of supplies were sent by the Russians to Germany by train, right up to the invasion. Indeed IIRC they were still sending trainloads of supplies after the invasion, with more trains loaded up and ready to go. I'm at work so I don't have my references to hand, but I also seem to recall that the Russians spent a full day trying to get hold of the German ambassador to confirm the invasion as they couldn't believe they had been invaded. German deserters also told the Russians they were about to be invaded, but they refused believe the intelligence that their "allies" would invade them
Nope. Not right. Stalin was not by any means a pacifist. See, here, USSR and Germany were fighting for the domination of Europe. Complete domination. And I have to say that Stalin was closer to reach it that Hitler was.
I´ll give you figures and bibliography as well, gotta run now. Most of the books are based on the info that stopped being "top secret" after USSR fell.
