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I too have my doubts about the validity of the kensai and units of ninja. But if they are well implemented within the existing games structure and so do not upset the unit balance then they will be an interesting addition.
It is possible to be too anal about historical accuracy in what is after all a computer game. As noted above we already have huge armies of monks which are as historically inaccurate as you can get.
Although monks can have far too much power on the battlefield, they are not a super unit: they can be beaten. The same will hopefully apply to the new units.
I would still like to see a fantasy setting using the STW engine, then the designers could include all the fantasy units that they want.
By the way, does anyone know what the Korean levy troops will be like? I thought ashigaru but better at attacking maybe?
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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"
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i,m really worried.
it was bad enough that they added the mongol element'as i posted in that forum'but this is getting ridiculous.
as an expert in japanese samurai history this is bullshit and taking the game away from it's pure and serious origins and adding fantasy figures.certainly some of the units just now are inaccurate'but you can believe in them.
i could accept these new figures on the strategy map'but not on the battlefield.
what next??
jediknights??
the contestants of big brother??
streakers??(for non uk people'naked peeps who run across famous sporting event)
i don't want this.
i just want the patch 1.13 asap
hach
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While I have been critical of the new units' validity and feasibility, I will not as yet decry Shogun as turning into a Starcraft clone. It's too early to tell and CA/DT did a wonderful job with turning all the historical inaccuracies of the first game into an enjoyable game for both those who know of the period (if we are willing to not be too stringent) and for those who have only known samurai through comics and movies.
It doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss and complain about our perceived notions of these units. Such is good for the sake of the Shogun community. Hopefully (especially in threads like this where a CA/DT representative started it) the designers check in here frequently and gauge our opinions. They will hopefully recognize the die hard fans' desires and while they can't think solely of us, they will hopefully consider such with weight.
Shogun has never been about complete historical accuracy. Ask anyone who has put interest into the subject (especially before Shogun came out) and they could ramble on and on about inaccuracies. But little of such truly affected our enjoyment. for example, people play with ashigaru-less armies (historically incredibly inaccurate), with monk-laden armies, and with modern small unit tactics. The inaccuracies that allow such don't hamper the game. While I cheer everytime the CA/DT guys DID try to stay historically accurate, I'm happier the game is as enjoyable as it is because of concessions they made. It's quite possible they'll do it again with this add on (even if most of us would've preferred a most historically accurate add-on that perhaps dealth with the Sengoku-period event of invading Korea).
So argue about the potential negatives about units, but try to avoid blasting the product as a whole until we learn more. Should it become a Starcraft-esque game, then we have the choice not to buy it. My only regret in all the die-hards not purchasing the upgrade/gold version is that EA will probably see it as a loss of enthusiasm for the topic, rather than a mistake in angle chosen.
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Originally posted by hach:
Quote i,m really worried.
it was bad enough that they added the mongol element'as i posted in that forum'but this is getting ridiculous.
as an expert in japanese samurai history this is bullshit and taking the game away from it's pure and serious origins and adding fantasy figures.certainly some of the units just now are inaccurate'but you can believe in them.[/QUOTE]You only need to refer me to the thread in question, but I'd like to know what your problem with the Mongols is. It isn't as if their presence was historically inaccurate...
And the debate about historical accuracy is getting out of hand *again*. I think we've all let the devs know we want STW to be a historical game, not another Kessen. Beyond that, the fact remains that the add-on is feature complete and will be published. Of course, you're free to not to buy it because it's a small step to a direction you dislike, but that's not particularly constructive behavior. And, eh, what Naomasa-sama said http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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"Crystal clear, / Sharp and bright, / The sacred sword / Allows no opening / For evil to roost."
- Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei
[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 01-10-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 01-10-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 01-10-2001).]
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Personally, when I play Shogun I don't expect an exact re-enactment of 16th Century Japan. I don't mind the historical inaccuracies for the sake of better gameplay. The real world is imbalanced. Teppo were "imbalanced" in real history because an army of well-trained gunners using ranked firing could destroy a traditional army. History is full of examples of advanced weapons superceding older ones and creating imbalances. Games like this one have safeguards to prevent that for playability.
The difference between Warrior Monks and the descriptions I've heard of the Battlefield Ninja and Master Swordsman is a matter of tactical unit warfare. I want to reproduce classical Japanese warfare with standard troop units. A unit of warrior monks is possible in the real world. I see nothing unrealistic about well-trained, fanatical, armorless warriors with sheets on their heads making up a military unit. It happened with the sohei in Japan at various times in history, even if it wasn't an influential part of the Sengoku Jidai. I don't even care that the sohei were not as effective as samurai in combat. CA needed a super unit, and they created one. That's fine. I think Warrior Monks are fun.
The sohei were influential historical warriors. But in all the serious history of Japan I've read, I haven't come across ninja playing a big role, especially in the battlefield. They may have knocked off Uesugi Kenshin and some other important leaders, but so did assassins in Europe. I don't see a "battlefield assassin" in AoK.
I think a master swordsman sounds fun. I'm just not interested in such a thing in this particular game. I bought this game to test my tactical battlefield prowess against my peers using universal troop types (spearmen, archers, cavalry).
I would like to see a game that is centered on Japan of the Gempei War era or earlier. That would be more appropriate for a touch of fantasy and legendary heros like Bunkei, Yoshitsune, and that guy who cut incoming arrows with his naginata (whatever his name was). Reproducing legendary warfare would be fun. But leave that to another game.
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anssi
th mongols were all gone by the end of the 14th century.they had either changed their names and became diferent tribes or emperors of china or just gone.
shogun is set in 1530's onwards.
at least 130 years later.also the samurai of the mongol period were nothing like the samurai of the sengoku jidai.the only time the mongols came near japan was late 13the century which is 300 years earlier.
if this is what you want then lets add some us marines as they would have came to japan 400 years later.
if anything shogun should be more accurate and be updated as such and not just have things added for gameplay no matter how good it sounds.
i want my shogun set in the time period and to at least seem to be correct.
now if they were to do a korean invasion add on'then i could agree because this did happen in the time period.
hach
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Hach the expansion is set in the 1200's not at the end of STW.
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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon
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Hideyasu was the second son of Ieyasu. He was brought up under the supervision of Toyotomi Hideysohi and accompanied him on the Kyushu Campaign. Hideyasu was adopted into the Yûki clan in 1590, and inherited a 100,000-koku fief in Shimosa from his adoptive father Harumoto. During the Sekigahara Campaign (1600), Hideyasu provided valuable assistance in the containment of Uesugi Kagekatsu and was afterwards transferred to a 750,000-koku fief in Echizen (Kita no sho). He was also acting as the keeper of Fushimi castle when he died in 1607, and some have suggested his affinity for the Toyotomi house in which he had been raised contributed to his untimely death.
Hanzo was the son of Hattori Yasunaga of Iga Province. He fought in a number of Tokugawa Ieyasu's battles and was one of the men tasked with assisting Tokugawa Nobuyasu commit suicide in 1579 - a task he proved unable to carry out due to his regard for the latter. He had inherited ties with the warriors of Iga and immediatly following the death of Nobunaga was able to use these connections to lead Tokugawa Ieyasu safely back to Mikawa. Hanzo is famous as a leader of 'ninja' and following the Tokugawa move to the Kanto in 1590 recieved the rank of Yoriki and led a 200-man unit of Iga warriors who formed the foundation of the Edo Castle guard. He was succeded by his son Iwami no kami Masanori, who would die fighting the defenders of Osaka Castle in 1615.
Naomasa was born in the Inasa district of Tôtômi province, the only son of Ii Naochika (an Imagawa retainer executed in 1562). He entered the service of Tokuagwa Ieyasu around 1578, and quickly distiguished himself as a brave fighter. He commanded 3,000 men at the Battle of Nagakute and did great damage to the ikeda troops he faced with gunnery fire. Following the Tokugawa transfer to the Kanto in 1590, Naomasa was given Minowa Castle in Kôzuke province, worth 12,000 koku. At the start of the Sekigahara Campaign, he participated in the attack on Gifu Castle and at the actual Battle of Sekigahara commanded 3,600 men. In the battle he acted as an escort to Ieyasu's son Tadayoshi but managed to draw first blood, outpacing the troops of Fukushima Masanori and attacking Ukita Hideie's contingent. At the end of the battle he was shot and wounded by a Shimazu sniper.
Ujisuke was the eldest son of Ogasawara Mimasaka no kami Ujikiyo (1529-1569) and inherited his domains in 1569. He initially served the Tokugawa and fought at the Battle of Anegawa (1570). in 1574 he was besieged in Takatenjin Castle by Takeda Katsuyori, and to the shock of his family (serving elsewhere in the Tokugawa domain) he surrendered, afterwards being given a fief at Omosu in Suruga Province. After the fall of the Takeda he fled to the Hôjô domain. He was assasinated after the fall of the Hôjô in 1590, and went down in family history as a disgrace
this r 3 historical examples of ninja or diff. units taking care of very high ranked geanrals and these r only Tokugawa
genaral's who have fallen!!!
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Ii's 'Red Devils' ***fierce as fire as silent like the forest as fast as the wind *** The Chain Clan*** LinkRedDevil
[This message has been edited by Jun Tokugawa (edited 01-11-2001).]
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Hello,
Dark, I remember a screenshot with a musketunit, how could this be in 1200?
I agree with hach. There are plenty other things to improve, we don't need these new units.
Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu.
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*Thanks in advance for taking the time to read this*
Hey gang;
I've been getting a few e-mails concerning people's current lack of discretion when it comes to posting topics in the wrong forum area; so, here's the new 411:
From now on, all threads such as this one, which concern the theoretical or speculative features of the forthcoming release will be sent to the Mongol Invasion - Expansion Pack forum + it maks no difference if they are posted by richie, or a newbie; if they are clogging up GD they are headed elsewhere.
That having been said however, please keep in mind that when the release of the expansion pack becomes imminent the content of the Mongol Invasion - Expansion Pack forum and the content of the General Discussion forum will be merged to create a single forum which covers all aspects of STW in it's playable guise.
We're asking for help from all the veteran posters in this endeavour; so, in other words: please don't post topics in the wrong place yourself, and if you see a newbie inadvertently do so, try not to respond until after the moderators have had a chance to move the thread to the correct forum area.
Please understand guys, that we aren't trying to be Anal-Gestapo Moderators, or anything of the sort; rather, we are just trying to make the General Discussion forum a distraction-free environment where players can talk about issues which pertain to STW in it's most current playable version.
Also, please rest assured that we will keep tabs on the situation, but for now, we are very much commited to this course of action, and even if the GD forum begins to look like Alcatraz with all the lock-downs we're still going to endeavour to give our patrons a place where they can discuss the playable rather then theoritical aspects of the game.
*Topic moved to the Mongol Invasion - Expansion Pack forum*
