Nazi straight-arm salute

Quite interesting Strategy... That could indeed change out pereception of where the current salute comes from. The story I have heard is that it is derived from knights who wanted to salute the other for some reason, so he lifted his visor (to show his face), thus the hand ended up at the eyebrow.
That one seems rather plausible as it is a topdown development from a time when only the top had a say in quite a few matters.

But if the Romans used much the same salute then, perhaps it has lingered somewhere... until it came out again somewhere in the 1850s (remember that napoleonic infantry saluted with their right hand straight across the chest, but don't know about officers).

Bah... Lazio Roma... their hardcore fans are fascists... go AS Roma!

Anyways, back on-topic:

Well, Krax, regarding the traditional soldier's salute... am I right to assume you are proposing a connection between that salute and the evolution to the straight arm salute?



~Wiz

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kraxis

Quite interesting Strategy... That could indeed change out pereception of where the current salute comes from. The story I have heard is that it is derived from knights who wanted to salute the other for some reason, so he lifted his visor (to show his face), thus the hand ended up at the eyebrow.

---

No NO NO NO~!!! That's completely different. That's what every military does today even. That's today salute. The Nazi one i not related.

It is Roman my friend. Stop saying there's no evidence of it. Only the the leader's and generals would do it. And yes Mussolini was a big fan of Rome and that's where he got it. No one else had it. How do you explain that?

hehehe I know I spelt a lot wrong.
I just typed it up quickly.
And I have NO idea how to get the umlaut or whatever.
so ha.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shadow

So who am I to believe ?

---

Good question. I'd like to know too. I believe we've reached that point where references would be mighty helpful.

Well for some reason people put the salute in Roman movies like Ben-hur.

http://rexcurry.net/pledgesalute.html

I guess I was wrong. Oh well at least I learned something.

http://rexcurry.net/nazi%20salute%209.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince

It is Roman my friend. Stop saying there's no evidence of it.

---

Uhm; and why exactly should I refrain from stating something that is pure and simple truth?

Quote:

---

Only the the leader's and generals would do it.

---

And the evidence for this is where?

Quote:

---

And yes Mussolini was a big fan of Rome and that's where he got it.

---

Possibly he thought that was what he did; but then old Mussolini wasn't exactly the most intelligent man out there.

Quote:

---

No one else had it. How do you explain that?

---

The straight-arm salute with palm faced outward was widely used throughout the world long before the rise of fascism; it is believed to have been in widespread use by civilians in the USA in the 1800s (an outstretched open palm is a fairly natural way of saying - look, I'm not packing). It was most certainly institutionalized by Francis Bellamy in 1892 as the pledge of allegiance for the American flag (with a very precise description of how it was to be done). It was widely used in US schools from that time forward to 1942 when it was replaced by law.

It was adopted for the Romans in the very first filmatization of Ben Hur (1907) - an American film (guess where they are likely to have gotten it from?), before it appeared in Italian films such as "Spartaco" (1914) and "Cabiria" (1914). The Italian fascists who first made use of the straight-arm salute (Mussolini's mentor, D’Annunzio), had been closely involved in the making of Cabiria. It is perhaps also not irrelevant for the adoption of a similar pledge by the Italian/German fascists that Bellamy - like Mussolini et al - was both a Socialist and a Nationalist (from just before the time when the movement took hold and really started down the road of ugliness). In the fascist era, of course, it was institutionalized by Hollywood, German and Italian filmmakers in the 1930s in ancient and contemporary films ("Triumph of the Will" being the most famous, of course).

Again; there is no literature or inscription which describes anything resembling a fascist salute. There is no iconography which features fascist salutes. Statues of Emperor's with their arms outstretched have them bent, and the Aurelius statue has his hand stretched down (something which is not easily seen on all pictures, but is clear if you see it in person) and with his fingers spread.

The same goes for the arm thumping to chest thing. No evidence whatsoever. That one seems to be entirely the invention of Hollywood.

The fiddling with helmet thingy is - just possibly - a salute (and is considered as such by some historians); however, the evidence even here is still fairly slim (though at least there is some evidence).

Oh well, can see I spent a little too long playing FM2005 before I came back to finish up my reply. Reminder to self: refresh browser before posting. ~:)

A better read than Curry's site (which is just a teeny bit too extreme for my tastes) is Martin Winkler's article on "The Roman Salute in Film".

I agreed with you, why are you still arguing.

This site you posted, BP, is so full of crap, I wouldn't trust it for a nanosecond, even if it stated "the sun rises from the east", I'd start having my doubts about it...

What a moronic, socialist-loathing, fascist FREAK!

No offense to you, matey BP, it's just that such humanoids trying to discredit socialism by finding ties with the fascist and nazis (while constantly forgetting that fascism and nazism are right wing ideologies), are making me extremely sick...

After the brief intermission, we are getting back to our topic...

On Trajan's column we are finding a couple of "salutes" (interpreted that way by some historians, at least).

One of them is considered the basic infantry salute: (From Y. Le Bohec's book "die romische armee") " The centurion gives his commander the infantry salute, raising the right hand to the helmet, palm inwards: This is shown on a number of reliefs, including the funerary monument of Flavius Mikkalus recently unearthened in Turkey".

If accurate, these are giving us a very old ancestor for the basic military salute of today, no?

The other salute is what the same writer considers as "the basic cavalry salute": In scenes LVII and LXIII two equites are raising the right hand, in a gesture pretty much similar to what we call today "Roman salute".

Other writers seem to consider the Mithraic customs introduced in the Roman Army during those times - the "adoratio" (kissing the fingertips of the
right hand, then raising the hand upwards and outwards, then downwards).

So, there seems to be a connection to Rome, after all. If we take this guy at face value, that is.

So I see we are now moving into the grey area.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shadow

So I see we are now moving into the grey area.

---

pardon? ~:confused:

Indeed... what are you talking about?



~Wiz

I'm a little confused. Are you suggesting that that picture is a photoshop as well?

I'm not sure he's suggesting that BP, but, in a rather "excitable" way, he has issues with the accuracy and objectivity the information at the website you referenced. I knew nothing about this Rex Curry guy, but in doing a little looking around his site, he has a lot of political axes to grind (to put it nicely). As such, I think I'd tend to share Rosacrux's strenuous objections and be highly suspicious of the accuracy of any information I found there. This guy has an agenda to support.

Back on topic, it amazes me how historians take little bits of information and draw conclusions from it. These possible examples of Roman salutes being a good case. I'm impressed at the conclusions they come to, but I often wonder how accurate they are. For all we know, the "salute" on Trajan's column is representative that he(?) had bad dandruff and was constantly scratching his head. But I've not studied history, so I'll leave the heavy thinking to the experts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince

I'm a little confused. Are you suggesting that that picture is a photoshop as well?

---

Errr... aren't we all a bit confused here?

BP, if this question is for me, what I am suggesting is that prior to the Nazis, the straight-arm salute was a common practice in most - if not all - US schools and not some obscure plan of the socialists to take over USA and destroy the American way of living, apple pie and coka cola, as that feckwitt you linked is presenting it... ~D ~D ~D

Edited to add

Ah, thank you Gregoshi, yes this curry clown has made me so sick, that my writing was rather incomprehensible... yes, BP, that's the point.

D'oh, simultaneous posts. I suppose I did capture the spirit of your objection then Rosacrux?

The so-called 'nazi salute' was actually used by many, many Catholic organizations as a greeting. It was widespread as a custom all over the Western world.

The nazis adopted many of those customs, and after their downfall, these things were, logically, abandoned because they had become symbols of the nazi regime of Germany. The swastika was another victim of this.



~Wiz

Yes, one of the most ancient symbols of the world. Used in ancient India 4000 years ago, in Egypt and Greece 3500 years ago and in several other places... discredited and banned for eternity, because of those murderous bastards...

Quote:

---

this curry clown has made me so sick

---

It is indeed a rather biased site, as I also said (though I put it a bit more mildly). ~;) The historical background he cites is fairly accurate though.

Regarding the Trajanic column:

Quote:

---

One of them is considered the basic infantry salute: (From Y. Le Bohec's book "die romische armee") " The centurion gives his commander the infantry salute, raising the right hand to the helmet, palm inwards: This is shown on a number of reliefs, including the funerary monument of Flavius Mikkalus recently unearthened in Turkey".

---

This the same gesture as is thought to be represented on the Ahenobarbus relief. The problem with most of these reliefs are that they could just as simply be "soldier fiddles with helmet" as a salute (and several of the reliefs cited tend to have the soldier's hand more behind the helmet than in front). There are no reliefs showing masses of soldiers all doing the same gesture to a senior officer (usually - like in the two reliefs mentioned above) we have a single figure, or several figures - only one of whom is carrying out this "salute".

And the Trajanic column has problems of its own.

Quote:

---

The other salute is what the same writer considers as "the basic cavalry salute": In scenes LVII and LXIII two equites are raising the right hand, in a gesture pretty much similar to what we call today "Roman salute".

---

Now the problem I mention earlier and the reason why any evidence for a "salute" from the column needs to be treated very cautiously is that the column was initially carved so that miniature metal weapons and tools could be attached to the soldiers (I kid you not). None of these tools survive today, of course and in fact the work was never finished (e.g., several battle scenes have soldiers seemingly fighting with their bare knuckles - with no holes drilled for the weapons that were obviously intended to be emplaced). As a result, lots of arms are waving around in the column for no apparent reason.

One of the problems I hate with Trajan's column is that it's sometimes incredibly hard to find the piece of it being referenced (due to different authors using different reference systems). I checked those two scenes as best I could at the moment and didn't find anything that even resembling a salute.

Perhaps you (he) means scene 77, where there is actually a scene with troops raising their hands toward the emperor and one of them could - if you want - look like a Roman salute (see the final adlocutio of the war, scene 77)? The problem with that interpretation is just that there are lots of soldiers (all in Civilian clothing btw); some who are not gesturing toward the emperor, and lots others who also are, but in a variety of different ways: with a clenched fist, an open palm facing sideways, etc (one look as if he was supposed to be holding something). Though it would be better to study a plaster cast (since pictures can twist the perspective a bit), I must admit I fail to see anyone doing the so-called equestrian salute, other than perhaps the hand sticking out at the very back with the palm facing the emperor (the two in the foreground raising their hands clearly have their fingers curled).

While on the subject of the Trajanic column, it is quite astounding the number of adlocutios, parades, and army addresses makes on that column - both to soldiers and civilians, without the appearance of anything even resembling a salute (see, e.g., Trajan addressing officers, scene 137, and Trajan addresses army, scene 75). Again, characters raising their right hand (in one form or the other - including some that could be interpreted as the "cavalry salute", if you wanted) on the column are rarely soldiers, but rather civilians including Dacians (both Romanized civilians and surrendered soldiers).

Personally, I rather think Le Bohec sees what he wants to see in the column. He has been influential though; I know there are several books (including several Osprey volumes) who have followed his theories.

Quote:

---

Other writers seem to consider the Mithraic customs introduced in the Roman Army during those times - the "adoratio" (kissing the fingertips of the
right hand, then raising the hand upwards and outwards, then downwards).

---

Obviously, this is a possibility. As long as one also recognizes that any such connection is based on pure speculation, with no evidence to support it.

Sorry for the length of my reply; I fear I tend to overreact when I read "accepted history" based on speculation. Rather silly really; like many other "historical facts", this one has entered public knowledge to stay, and there is not really a lot to be done about it.

Will go back to work on Imperium now, and try to limit my rants on this subject (Di Canio has a lot to answer for) in the future. ~;)

Sorry for going back a while, but since it was addressed to me I think I have the right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince

No NO NO NO~!!! That's completely different. That's what every military does today even. That's today salute. The Nazi one i not related.

It is Roman my friend. Stop saying there's no evidence of it. Only the the leader's and generals would do it. And yes Mussolini was a big fan of Rome and that's where he got it. No one else had it. How do you explain that?

---

Now where did this come from? Did you read my post?
Strategy mentioned and showed us a possible representative of the current salute in one of its oldest forms. I was then intrigued and basically asked if the roman 'infantry' salute (as it has so nicely been named here) was possibly the ancestor of the current salute, as opposed to the knightly introduction.
Me = ~:confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rosacrux redux

pardon? ~:confused:

---

It's just like what Gregoshi said

What I mean here I that we are now unsure whether the salute come from the roman or the American socialists.

In the first place I thought it is from the American socialists but after reading all those post I thought I was wrong but now it seems that there are evidence showing that the salute is from the American socialists and not the roman.

Not American socialists, Shadow, the salute was a common practice in Catholic schools (I wouldn't call catholics "socialist", would you?) in the beginning and later in most US schools. Until the rise of the Nazis, all US kids saluted the flag that way and everybody thought of it as "normal". After that... anything reminding the Nazis had to be banned, so the salute stopped.

That rex curry character is probably a right wing fanatic with very strong anti-socialist sentiments, so he is trying to unload this to the socialists, through a weird socialist conspiracy to take over the US... this is not true, I am afraid.

Strategy, you are right, of course. Interpretation of the various gestures depicted on the Trajan column are varied. It's Le Bohec's suggestion of this, and I can't support or reject it.

Next time I go to Rome I'll actually examine the parts of the column (if accessible from close...) because last time I was there I was definitely not trying to find evidence of a straight arm salute...

And since we don't have any specific mentioning of it in the ancient sources, it is rather difficult to understand where it comes from.

What seems rather established is that it was used within the catholic church alot... that could (and probably has) lead to the strengthening of the "roman origins" of it, since The Roman Catholic church traces it's existence in Rome and the pontifex maximus was the emperor before the Popes entered the scene.

Makes sense too... maybe those Hollyweird producers who first adopted it thought "hey, the Roman Catholics do it, the Romans would've too"

oh, I am confused.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rosacrux redux

oh, I am confused.

---

Same here :dizzy2:

But I kind of agree with what Strategy said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rosacrux redux

Not American socialists, Shadow, the salute was a common practice in Catholic schools (I wouldn't call catholics "socialist", would you?) in the beginning and later in most US schools. Until the rise of the Nazis, all US kids saluted the flag that way and everybody thought of it as "normal". After that... anything reminding the Nazis had to be banned, so the salute stopped.

---

Well, all this depends...
It depends on where in the world you are today. A socialist is not the same thing all over the world, the most marked difference is the socialist in America (basically a communist) and that of western Europe (where he is more of a leftwing democrat).
So if Shadow is from any western European country (since I can't see it in your profile I have to guess) then don't fall so hard on the socialist term. We have many many socialists in western Europe that are not anywhere near communists. Denmark for instance is by many standards almost all socialists (which tends to horrify americans when you say it).

Hmmm... I tend to believe this is the topic of Confusion (with a capital "C")

Kraxis, you lost me. I was not referring to the term (which, as you say, is interpreted differently according to nationality and/or political leanings - you know that most Republicans in the states call Clinton a... socialist?) but to the notion that this gesture was originated from anything like socialists.

Or did I get you wrong?

Or have we all lost it?

Darn... did I mention that since December 26th I am a married man? A heroic woman has undertaken with great courage the vicious task to tame this rough beast

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kraxis

So if Shadow is from any western European country (since I can't see it in your profile I have to guess) then don't fall so hard on the socialist term.

---

Thanks Kraxis, I am from the South-East Asia, Singapore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rosacrux redux

Darn... did I mention that since December 26th I am a married man? A heroic woman has undertaken with great courage the vicious task to tame this rough beast

---

Congratulations Rosacrux! I didn't know. If your wife is the typical female, this thread will not be the last time you are confused about what was said. :laugh4:

Back to the salute, I wonder if there is something "universal" about the straight-armed salute leading it to be adopted independently by different people at different times. Though the connection Rosacrux mentions between Catholics using it and Rome is a logical link. Anyone knowledgable on ancient salutes in other parts to the world?