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Lets gamble
Milnaht Belgae=Swordsman with long red hair, bronze helmet and green shield
Boii Botroas=Swordsman with cape and shield with chequered patterns.
Soldurii=warrior with lance?!
Belgae Batacori=Swordsman with cape and yellow/green shield?!
Mala Gaeroas=Gallic slinger or maybe warrior with the big lance?!
PS: My Gaulish is very bad...
Don't worry. Everyone's Gaulish is very bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTank
@ Spongly
Some Latin in there as well I think.... ~;)
@ Khelvan
Thx for answearing! :bow:
Everyone's Gallic sucks, so don't be hard on yourself. However, we do know enough to make names of soldiers (we know enough to actually speak it...if you don't want to be very descriptive; adjectives we seem to lack much of). And none of it is actually Latin, but Gallic is very very similar to Latin (it is not, as often is misconstrued, the basis of the Goidilic languages like Irish and Scottish, which are very different from Latin). Gallic influenced Latin (and vice versa) for a very long time, due to war, trade, and just generally being close to one another, with people moving into Gaul/Rome from their respective former countries. One of the reasons the language disappeared so quickly was because it was so similar to Latin that it was absorbed right into it quite swiftly after Roman conquest. This is why the British languages stood longer. They were very much different from Latin, so we still have P-Celtic languages.
Mind you, that isn't to say Irish and Gaelic (that's Scottish, in English; if one says Gaelic in English, proper etiquette is that they refer to Scottish, Irish is just called Irish in English) don't have Gallic influence. They do. It's just not the basis for it. Some Gallic words are in Irish (certain dialects more than others, specifically the dialects from where Gallic tribes inhabited more heavily than other places), and possibly some grammar, but if Irish came based on Gallic, it would be a much easier language for outsiders to learn, because it would be very similar to Latin.
Ranika I meant that my knowledge of Gallic is very bad compared with you guys.
I from the netherlands and I know that several dutch words are from Gallic.
They are Ambacht, rijk,ijzer and gijzelaar and maybe also zeep(soap) bever and ton.
http://img134.exs.cx/img134/1001/unt...copy0mo.th.jpg
how come that guys thing is red and the others arent is he a general?
That's a standard bearer's helmet, I believe.
yup, you can see another one near the center of the pic (the boar standard is facing us, so it's harder to see).
The translation for those units has been bugging me.... :book:
*Seleucid, Ptolemaic Pantodapoi - I´ve only seen this applied to pikeman from native/mixed population. Does pantopadoi, linguistically, imply the use of a pike as well or only their origin as you have here (since you separate them into town-watch and phalangites)?
*Machimos - on the other hand AFAIK this name refers only to the origin of the soldier - indigenous Egyptian soldier - so why not refer to the Ptolemaic Pantopadoi as Ptolemaic Machimos (as that would be in accordance with the logic of the other units I mentioned above, by having Ptolemaic Machimos Phalangites)?
*Ptolemaic Kleruchoi Agemata - So these are military settlers of hellenic origin (I presume it derives from Klèrouchos) that form somekind of elite unit?
*Ptolemaic Basilikon Agemata - Royal Elite?
As terrible as my Greek is :help: .....
...my Gallic is non existent. As some of the guys here said, it´s not exactly a living tongue (ok....that sounded kind of gross....).
So can you enlighten us on the Gallic units?
:bow:
Well, I think a bit of surprise is best, but, I guess there isn't harm in a few names. And remember, if you see these elsewhere, somebody is stealing (except the Soldurii, as Caesar mentioned this name);
Soldurii; these are probably the best known, since this was not a name we transliterated later (as in, constructed from known Gallic). Soldurii were elite warriors of the Aquitanii; Caesar mentions them by name. They varied in equipment (we've chosen to feature the more heavily armored Soldurii as a regional unit). However, they were all very well trained, and had a very serious bond. Each Soldurii chose another Soldurii, the 'bond of fates'. If one Soldurii died, the other bonded to him would commit suicide, if he didn't also die in the same battle. Caesar noted that no Soldurii was known to have ever stepped down from his duty (such a renouncement probably accompanied being cast out of the society, and declared an outlaw, thus legal to kill anyway). There name is (bet you couldn't guess) the quite possible basis of the word Soldier; maybe an attempt to connect the average soldier with the bravery of the Soldurii.
Botroas; 'roas' is 'soldiers' or 'a troop' (though it's hardly unique, dozens of words existed for soldiers, warriors, troops, etc.). Bot (said like Boat) is sword. So, simply 'sword soldiers' or 'a sword troop'. These type of warriors were medium-infantry generally, any lighter swords were usually shortswords, and wielded by lighter infantry. Botroas carry long, one-handed swords, throwing javelins, and large shields. Botroas in this case are particularly the southern swordsmen (we'll also have northern soldiers; southern and northern Gauls were different). They will have a couple of 'regional' variations from two of the tribes more famous for their regular swordsmen; these will be superior infantry of this class, but each will be superior for different reasons.
Mala Gaeroas; also southern, Mala (southern) Gaeroas (spear troops) are light infantrymen; they're the lightest southern infantry after militiamen. They use the Celtic longspear (really just about as long as a regular spear to others, Celtic short spears are very short), and javelins, as well as the large line infantry shields.
Hardly everything, but, that should give an idea of some of the stuff we're working on now. And since you asked, that's all I'm giving you, though we know the direction of the faction already; surprises are good though, and I think you'll enjoy it. A general (this isn't 100% accurate for every unit) overview of the Gallic military force is:
Low Tier: Undisciplined, affordable (not necessarily cheap) poor-to-fair morale units, with good shields, no armor, and about average ability to attack
Mid Tier: Undisciplined and some disciplined, affordable fair morale units, good shields, most no armor (some with armor), and good attackers, with strong charges
High Tier: Disciplined, expensive (more than most others of equal quality) good morale units, good armor, very good attacks, very good for defending, and generally very very strong charges
Also, a quick little explanation; the double I on the end of names (Aquitanii, Arvernii, Soldurii), is used in Gallic. I believe it's also used in Latin (though I'm not 100% certain, my Latin is wretched), and the Romans, if I'm not mistaken, called the Gallic and British tribes by these names. Most of the Britons didn't call themselves as such, though the southern Britons spoke the same language as the Gauls; the midlanders and north-more Brits spoke stuff more like the Welsh, though not at all identical, but mistakable for those who can't speak a P-Celtic language. So, the southern Brits and the Gauls likely called themselves something similar, though they had many 'alternate' forms. So, in Britain, the Dumnonii could call themselves either Dumnones or Dumnonii. The second form, more common to the Romans, would be the form they would use (and implement for the tribes residing in their domains, regardless of what they spoke), and would, as such, become the more common format that we would become more accustomed to. In trying to make Britain in general seem more like their first British dominions (and their Gallic dominion), the Romans would use this suffix for all tribes they saw as being from the same stock, or habitating the same area.
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Very interesting! What are the sources to study or at least take a glimpse at Gallic for a lingomaniac?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranika
:book:
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The best starting place is probably the Coligny calendar; it's a Gallic calendar. There are also places on the internet with large word lists of Gallic, but they're rarely up-to-date or 100% accurate (though, no one is 100% accurate); we find new Gallic words pretty often. However, that's a good start; finding a word list, and checking out the calendar.
(goes home and adds another language to the "Ancient Languages to Learn" list and sees he still hasn´t learnt the other 2)
~;) thx for answearing.
And...about those Hellenistic unit names translations, anyone care to take a go at it? :book:
Ranika
Is there any information about wich language(s) the Belgae spoke.
Did they spoke a Gallic dialect or Brythonic dialect or did they spoke a germanic/celtic mix?!
I often hear that the Belgic tribes where a mix of germanic and celtic people.
The Belgae spoke Gallic. Only some of the Belgae were mixed with Germans (specifically the Nervii), but they were for most intent, almost purely Celtic, and we recognize them as Celts, not a Germano-Celtic mix (since Celtic isn't a bloodline, it's simply a culture). Celts themselves were of a huge number of ethnic backgrounds, but all considered Celts because they shared most of a culture. The Belgae weren't really Gauls, or Britons, they were Belgae, and fairly unique. However, they did speak a language the same as Gauls (which makes sense, they weren't brushed up against ANY Brythonic speakers; southern Britain, as stated, spoke Gallic or a similar language at this time).
They probably had some Germanic words in their dialect, but this is to be expected. However, considering that it's noted that the Belgae and Gauls conversed without problems, this is likely because any outside influences in their languages (by this time; Latin in the Gauls language, Germanic in the Belgae language) were minimal, confined probably to slang, pronunciations, and local words and names of objects or items that were foreign to one another.
more screenshots please
Pantodapoi Infantry = non-Greek militia. It could refer to Jews, Native Egyptians, Syrians, Persians, Aramaeans, Hyrcaneans, you get the picture. Perhaps there's a Pantodapoi Phalangitai unit as well ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm
Machimoi have their own units.
Kleruchoi are land grant soldiers, almost like feudal soldiers.
Basileus (king) Agema (guard). Draw your conclusions.
So what does machimos mean then? I thought it meant native Egyptian soldiers........ :dizzy2:
Well at least I got the Ptolemaic Basilikon Agemata and Ptolemaic Kleruchoi Agemata right...... ~D
[QUOTE=Sarcasm]The translation for those units has been bugging me.... :book:
*Seleucid, Ptolemaic Pantodapoi - I´ve only seen this applied to pikeman from native/mixed population. Does pantopadoi, linguistically, imply the use of a pike as well or only their origin as you have here (since you separate them into town-watch and phalangites)?
*Machimos - on the other hand AFAIK this name refers only to the origin of the soldier - indigenous Egyptian soldier - so why not refer to the Ptolemaic Pantopadoi as Ptolemaic Machimos (as that would be in accordance with the logic of the other units I mentioned above, by having Ptolemaic Machimos Phalangites)?
*Ptolemaic Kleruchoi Agemata - So these are military settlers of hellenic origin (I presume it derives from Klèrouchos) that form somekind of elite unit?
*Ptolemaic Basilikon Agemata - Royal Elite?
As terrible as my Greek is :help: .....
Pantodapoi: means ''for every ground=all purpose''
Machimos: Combatant, soldier
Ptolemaic Kleruchoi Agemata: this name is making no sense. Kleruchoi is prural of kleruchos=the one chosen by lottary, its still in use for drafted non professional soldiers that are serving for a period. Agema=unit,guard. Prural Agemata. So if you want the name to make sense must be ''Agemata kleruchon''meaning Agema of kleruchoi in greek grammar the ''of'' is indicated by the ending ''on'' of the word kleruchon. Its hard to explain in english maybe french or russian guys here can understand easier since they also have complex grammar.
So its not Basilikon Agemata its Basilikon Agema since before basilikon was single number and agemata plural.
Dont let unit names comfuse you most times they mean the same thing by different words in greek there are 1000 ways to say the same thing so words like machimos dont reffer to particular unit always but its rather general way to say warrior.
If you need any question about greek unit names or the right way to pronounce and set it with grammar rules ask me. I just wanna say dont rely much on translated history books since they scarce have the right pronounciation and spelling especially in english were they turn ''i'' to ''ai'' and ''h'' to ''k''. In greek we dont have special accent except maybe a scotish kind of ''r'' and vowels are ''clear'' ''a'' is ''a'' not ''ei'' etc.
Its not very difficult if you understand the basics russian grammar is very close since it has much too many greek elements so if any russians here maybe understand easier.
We are talking about ancient greek here, maybe some of these words had different meanings or uses in the past? :help:
They do have different meanings, and the grammar is different. I will, however, let Urnamma or Teleklos answer this.
I had a hunch they did....
Mind you, that isn't to say Irish and Gaelic (that's Scottish, in English; if one says Gaelic in English, proper etiquette is that they refer to Scottish, Irish is just called Irish in English) don't have Gallic influence. They do. It's just not the basis for it. Some Gallic words are in Irish (certain dialects more than others, specifically the dialects from where Gallic tribes inhabited more heavily than other places), and possibly some grammar, but if Irish came based on Gallic, it would be a much easier language for outsiders to learn, because it would be very similar to Latin.[/QUOTE]
Nonono Irish IS Gealic, the scotish are an irish tribe that salled to scotland and asilimated(sp?) with the picts hence there languange(sp?)being slightly different from Irish Gealic,Gealic has always been in Ireland and has been spoken there since pre-roman times! the speech of the scots is called Scots-gealic/Scotish(atleast i think, dont qoute me on that one) Get your facts strate man!
Back on topic: Great work guys! Do you think you could maybe realease differnt culture packs as they become complete? like Celtic pack Roman pack Greek pack then finally realeasing the hole thing in one!(sounds alittle farfeched i know but it could keep crazy fans like me off your back)
Nah, cause then you couldn't play against the rest of the factions, as they wouldn't be historical. It'll be all at once.Quote:
Great work guys! Do you think you could maybe realease differnt culture packs as they become complete? like Celtic pack Roman pack Greek pack then finally realeasing the hole thing in one!(sounds alittle farfeched i know but it could keep crazy fans like me off your back)
No, Irish is a Gaelic language; Gallic is not in the same family. Goidilic IS Gaelic, but Gaelic is three different languages. I know, it's my first language (Irish), and in English, Irish do not call the Irish language Gaelic. We call the Scottish language Gaelic (hence it being a colloquialism, since technically, Irish, Manx, and Scottish are all Gaelic, but are three different languages).
The Scottish were not a tribe, they were about 12 tribes, in a tuath (a Goidilic clan). The Scottish language is very difficult for an Irishman to read or speak without being educated in it. And Gallic is nothing like Gaelic; they're two entirely different language families. Get YOUR facts straight. The Scots did not call themselves Scots; that name comes from a Roman word for the Goidils (ancient Gaels), Scotti. The Scotti were a tuath that migrated because the Ui Neill were spreading, and the Oirgal (east Goidils) were running out of space; so, they invaded modern Scotland. The Scottish language today is an amalgam of Goidilic, Pictish, Nordic, Norman, and Angle influences. Modern Irish is only amalgamated from Goidilic, Norse, a little Norman, and a few English words (in certain dialects, western dialects are Goidilic with Norse influence, but not near as heavy as the east). This makes them very different.
Gallic and Gaelic are not the same thing. And Irish Gaelic has NOT been spoken in Ireland since ancient times; what we recognize as being Gaelic only comes from the 6th century. Before that, the way verbs are conjugated, word structure, and the organization of sentences were entirely different (this language is called Goidilic, or early Gaelic, the basis of all the Goidilic languages, but it's not actually much like any of them in many ways). I've got my master's in Celtic Linguistics (specifically Q-Celtic, but we did a lot of work on P-Celtic and the dead Celtic languages); get your facts straight before 'correcting' some one in the most asinine way. The Gallic languages (which I've memorized what we know of them) are more like Latin; anyone who speaks a Gaelic language (Irish, Scottish, or Manx), can tell you immediately that Gaelic tongues sound nothing like Latin; Gallic, however, to the uneducated on the subject, can look almost identical.
Perhaps you can't tell the difference between Gallic and Gaelic because you're mispelling them; so I'll explain.
Two Ls; GaLLic; the language of the Gauls
EL; GaELic; the three languages of the Goidilic people: Irish, Manx, and Scottish; Scottish, which, in English, by native speakers of Irish, is referred to as Gaelic, despite all three languages being from the same root. Scottish and Manx and Irish are not 'slightly' different from one another. They're entirely seperate languages with a base root; it's like comparing French and Spanish.
ranika is scary.. someone hold me. :worried:
Sorry, simply don't much care for the rude manner in which an asinine accusation was delivered.
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I can't keep all of that in memory! http://www.thelib.com/gallery/albums...ate%20poet.gif
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Idomeneas may have valid point. I'll tell Teleklos and Umamma about this.
Sorry. I've got access to nothing very useful in the way of books where I am now. It'll be a week before I'm back at home. I am more familiar with the "settler" type meaning of the word, but I refuse to say anything very definitive till I can get to a big dictionary more easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowake