You're not surprised that they decided that the appropriate response to somebody defaming their holy book was to burn down their holy building? I sure was. I'd defend mine with my life.
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You're not surprised that they decided that the appropriate response to somebody defaming their holy book was to burn down their holy building? I sure was. I'd defend mine with my life.
really? that's weird. i mean, no offense, but it's justa building, right? isn't it kind of impulsive to give up your life for a building that can be built again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Now we're getting somewhere. Some peoples in this world are just as attached to their holy book as you are to your holy building. That's why they are prepared to defend it with their lives. And of course these protesters feel that the Newsweek story, whether true or not, is part of a much wider pattern of contempt for their convictions and abuse of their co-religionists in American camps. The protests would have happened sooner or later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
I think in standing up for the building he stands up for the principle. I'd subscribe to that if I were Christian. Some things are worth defending with your life, not because those things aren't expendable or couldn't be restored, but because the fight is indispensable. It's what makes you a human being.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_John
dumb Q's
where did the photo's of abuse come from?
what bright spark in the inteligence services allowed said photo's?
what bright spark thought said photo's would be found amusing by family and friends?
more importantly
why did phsycological testing not identify said bright sparks both within the military and within intelligence services before they had a chnace to inflict humiliation?
soldiers and intelligence officers involved should have known better and protested being ordered to break the rules of war
America's seeming acceptance of any thug into military service is America's responsibility
compensation is due to those tortured and humiliated
(it should be an overly generous amount to appease - OVERLY GENEROUS, not a paltry sum)
Newsweek should be fined for defamation of the USA and made to pay recompense to those injured in riots and relatives of those killed.
Standard rates in Oz are $1k per day of lifetime lost - if someone is only 30 then they still have 50 years of life, that is roughly $18Mill per person killed due to rioting as result of story.
If someone is injured and unable to work for a week they get $7K.
Newsweek should be Forced to pay.
DO THAT and you will find News agencies being far more carefull of what they report.
There is protest by other nations and then there is shoddy journalism. Where is the ethical accountablity for the journalists.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Now who is being hysterical - just pointing out a fault I see in the way Goofball attempted to justify the shoddy journalism by pointing out the past behavior of the United States Military.Quote:
I'm surprised at the hysterical reactions here, in this forum, not those in Afghanistan. It takes only very little imagination to understand that the abuse of their 'holy' book coming on top of a lot of other real or imagined humiliation sets off such protests. You guys know your country is making serious mistakes and supporting dictators in its war on terrorism, but you haven't the guts to face up to it. Instead, you complain that the entire world seems deaf and blind to your noble intentions, and when those noble intentions hit the fan in countries you occupy you whine that it's all to blame on one tiny newspaper clipping.
However I see that doesn't prevent some to go off in this type of tangent - ah the logic must just escape me.
Yep straight from the hotbed of racism that is Europe. You want to pass such labels off about others - then you must expect and accept them about your neck of the woods.Quote:
Eleswhere in this board Americans try to make the case that their country isn't bound to the treaties it signs, that they have every right to teach Intelligent Decline in biology class and that the world is flat as long Americans chose to believe that. Confusion and superstition reign supreme, Madam. Hm, haven't we seen it all before?
http://www.schildersmilies.de/noschi...fee-n-news.gif
And of course these protesters feel that the Newsweek story, whether true or not, is part of a much wider pattern of contempt for their convictions and abuse of their co-religionists in American camps.
Whether true or not? I believe the story was retracted..
Its interesting how you worded that, a very skilled tactic. By mixing the lie in with other not so unproven lies, you have lessened its impact.
Its sort of like saying: Well I know the suspect didnt actually steal the TV, but I can still hope that he stole the car because that hasnt been categorically shot down as well.
The protests would have happened sooner or later.
You have absolutely no way of knowing that now do you?
And once again I understood exactly what you said in the second posting - which is exactly what I stated. However once again the issue is the method and the words used in the initial. You are assume that I on purpose set up a straw man arguement - sorry there Goofball if I was going to on purpose set up a straw man arguement - I would of used a completely different tact and twisted your words to mean something completely different from what you stated. However in the first post your post stated exactly what I quoted - and was interpeted exactly the way I read it. If you don't want your words to be misunderstood - then maybe you should not post on an internet forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
Agree with you completely - Newsweek is responsible for shoddy journalism and should be held accountable.Quote:
Originally Posted by barocca
Don't I always? But Afghanistan isn't my neck of the woods. Only a tiny part near Kabul is a Dutch neck of the woods, and Dutch troops don't hold prisoners against the law there. About a hundred Dutch commandos have recently joined in the search for jihadists in Afghanistan, but I haven't heard anything about them beating up chained prisoners, wiring them with electrodes and mock-executing them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
You won' want this to be the image of your country, then don't do it. People who know this sort of thing is going on will believe any bad newspaper story about the U.S. whether it's true or not.
And as a journalist - should I point out the errors and unethical behavior of your peers in producing such an article and how it reflects on your profession. And then label every bad action of the journalistic community as a reflection of the whole. Because that is exactly what you and Goofball are attempting to implie with your statements.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
I have seen worse and have disagreed with it. However it does not excuse the bad journalism of the journalists who wrote and then published such an article. Neither to you see me attempting to justify torture or wrongdoing by military personal - I have always stated bring them under investigation and hold them responsible for their actions. Are you willing to stop attempting to justify these journalists bad behavior by pointing out bad behavior of the subject of the story? However it seems that you are not.Quote:
You won' want this to be the image of your country, then don't do it. People who know this sort of thing is going on will believe any bad newspaper story about the U.S. whether it's true or not.
Futhermore I find it absolutely amazing given some of your statements in previous threads - That you are attempting to defend the actions of these journalists.
You want to pass such labels off about others - then you must expect and accept them about your neck of the woods.
So very true .
So when Rumsfelt says "People have lost their lives , people are dead ,people need to be very careful about whast they say just as they need to be careful about what they do"
We can apply it to all the unsubstantiated fabricated bullshit he said about Iraq and all the lives that have been lost as a result of it .
How do you fell about paying 1k a day for all the lives lost because of the politicians lies ? Or should journalists have a higher level of accountability than politicians ?
Newsweek is responsible for shoddy journalism and should be held accountable.
The politicians are responsible for shoddy policy and should be held accountable
Where is the ethical accountablity for the journalists.
Where is the ethical accountability for the politicians ?
Prove that it was done to fabricate a war for unethical reasons then I am all for holding Rumsfeld and others responsible for their actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
There is an accountablity process for them is there not - many are voted out of office. And some are even given prison sentences.Quote:
Newsweek is responsible for shoddy journalism and should be held accountable.
The politicians are responsible for shoddy policy and should be held accountable
I wish there was one - then many politicians would indeed be driven out of office when their corruption has come to light.Quote:
Where is the ethical accountablity for the journalists.
Where is the ethical accountability for the politicians ?
However nice attempt to use my own arguement against me - however once again this is nothing other then an attempt to justify and excuse bad behavior of one group by pointing out the bad behavior of another group. Jump on the band wagon of bashing the United States or in your case every politician verus arguing that these journalists should be held accountable for their actions.
I'm not adressing Newsweek's ethics at all. I would have published the same story based on the same sources if I were them. The behaviour of American prison guards has been abominable in various cases, and they have been encouraged and supported by their government until the worldwide public outcry over Abu Ghraib. Newsweek is caving in under political pressure now, that's all. It's wartime censorship, and it shows once again that your country is at war and feels at war, in spite of declarations to the contrary. And like I said, we've seen all this before during the Vietnam war, including episodes where the press was blamed for losing battles. A story more or less won't change the image of your country that these people have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
or in your case every politician So glad you noticed ~:cheers:
Its just that I cannot believe the sheer hypocracy of the politicians statements concerning this article , they have all been at it today , I just singled out Rummys as it was the most striking piece of crap from a wide selection of rubbish .
See, it's not just a building. To me, it's not just a good story that has me coming back every week. I BELIEVE in God, and his presence in the tabernacle. I wouldn't just let somebody show up and desecrate the place or burn it down. How would I explain that?
I dont' take offense to you calling it weird, because if you don't believe in the physical manifestation of God in the Eucharist, and most Protestants (and no atheists) don't, then you couldn't possibly understand.
i am totally convinced that the Koran was indeed defiled. Newsweek probably just had to make a conspiracy about it being a false story in order to calm down the public relations nightmare this has caused. defiling the Koran is one of the worst crimes imaginable in Islam
why would any reasonable person think that this did not happen? it's already been proven that the USA has tortured and raped prisoners in Abu Gharib...defiling the Koran is just "small potatoes" compared to that.
let's use some common sense eh. the Koran defiling happened.
ah ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
The journalist and his editor should be stood down and investigated by Newsweek to see if what they did was on purpose or a case of very poor quality work.
If Newsweek does not transparently do something and be seen to do something in a short time frame then one has to ask if this was directed from the top. Anyone who was involved in creating this situation, specifically planning it and making the journalist do so (by inducements and/or threats) should have the book thrown at them. It would of course be best if an independent organisation investigated them that did not report to the board of Newsweek.
Well, in truth, I think it was poor judgement by the editorial staff. It was Micheal Isikoff and John Barry, on the "Periscope" page, which unless I'm mistaken, is a bunch of "one-liners" they haven't had time to do full stories on at press time. The fact that they refuse to discipline these two makes it clear, in my mind, they still recognize no cuplability on their part. They essentially said "Oops, my bad". Hardly an honorable position to take, and one that will make salvaging their journalistic crediblity here in the West all the harder. And apparently, their friends in the East are only too willing to take them at face value.
Not for nothing, I'd be lying if I said Navaros was full of bull. I like to think he is, but I have to admit, I've had some of the same suspicions myself. Not the #1, #2 or #3 theory in my mind at the moment, but it is possible.
So you support sloppy journalism to sell papers and to make political points? Is that it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
That doesn't speak well for the journalist and media profession as a whole.
Yep the politicans are full of hypocracy - but so are most of us here in this forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
However I agree with your point concern Rumsfield - however once again pointing out others bad behavior to justify another's bad behavior is a weak arguement.
Actually, Adrian, I have to agree with Redleg on this. You would publish a story based on the unclear, unverified testimony of a single witness who then recanted ever having seen it a military report? And you would have done so proudly and unapologetically? I thought you were a better journalist then that. How is Newsweek any better than the town gossip in this case?
I love how the liberals (for the most part) whine and bemoan about President Bush not getting all the facts, and then defend this. It just shows liberals (for the most part) dont mind a little hypocrisy as long as they can take a shot, or defend a shot taken against our president.
Indeed it was. I see no one here has mentioned the true story. It seems one of the prisoners ripped some pages out of a Koran , provided I might add by the US gobernment and used them to stuff his toilet so as to overfllow it. Its an old prison trick. It was a Muslim who desicrated this 'holy book' But lets remember BP assures us not to worry about Irans nukes because the holy book say IRAN CANT HAVE NUKES right there on page 175.Quote:
i am totally convinced that the Koran was indeed defiled.
Do I count as a liberal? :book: :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
Strange bedfellows indeed.Quote:
Newsweek and the rioters
Dennis Prager (archive)
May 17, 2005 | printer friendly version Print | email to a friend Send
Newsweek magazine published a scoop last week.
Based on an unnamed source, Newsweek informed the world that American interrogators of suspected Islamic terrorists at Guantanamo Bay had flushed pages of the Koran down a toilet.
If this were true, the interrogators would be both morally wrong and stupid. The words of the Koran and the pages on which they are written are considered intrinsically holy to Muslims.
As it happens, it was not true. Like Dan Rather and CBS News, Newsweek put politics and craving a scoop ahead of truth, not to mention ahead of America's security.
As I said on my radio show days before Newsweek revealed that its report was baseless, even if the report were true, the magazine was highly irresponsible when it published the report. It could have only one effect: inflaming the wrath of hundreds of millions of Muslims against America.
If an American interrogator of Japanese prisoners desecrated the most sacred Japanese symbols during World War II, it is inconceivable that any American media would have published this information. While American news media were just as interested in scoops in 1944 as they are now, they also had a belief that when America was at war, publishing information injurious to America and especially to its troops was unthinkable.
Such a value is not only not honored by today's news media, the opposite is more likely the case. The mainstream media oppose the war in Iraq and loathe the Bush administration. Whatever weakens the war effort and embarrasses the president raises a news source's prestige among its domestic, and especially foreign, peers.
Newsweek is directly responsible for the deaths of innocents and for damaging America. As a typical member of the American news media, Newsweek's primary loyalties are to profits and to its political/social agenda. We are very fortunate that in America, at least, we now have talk radio and the Internet; the mainstream news media are no longer Americans' only sources of news. Europe and the rest of the world still rely almost exclusively on news media for their understanding of the world, which is a major reason for their anti-Americanism.
And now a word about the rioters. They have desecrated their religion and their holy text far more than the alleged flushers of Koranic pages.
Did any Buddhists riot and murder when the Taliban Muslims blew up the irreplaceable giant Buddhist statues in Afghanistan?
Did any Christians riot and murder when an "artist" produced "Piss Christ" -- a crucifix immersed in a jar of the "artist's" urine? When all Christian services and even the wearing of a cross were banned in Saudi Arabia? When Christians are murdered while at prayer in churches by Muslims in Pakistan?
Have any Jews rioted in all the years since it was revealed that Jordanian Muslims used Jewish tombstones in Old Jerusalem as latrines? Or after Palestinians destroyed Joseph's Tomb in 2000 and set fire to the rebuilt tomb in 2003?
It is quite remarkable that many Muslims believe that an American interrogator flushing pages of the Koran is worthy of rioting, but all the torture, slaughter, terror and mass murder done by Muslims in the name of the Koran are unworthy of even a peaceful protest.
Nevertheless, one will have to search extensively for any editorials condemning these primitives in the Western press, let alone in the Muslim press. This is because moral expectations of Muslims are lower than those of other religious groups. Behavior that would be held in contempt if engaged in by Christians or Jews is not only not condemned, it is frequently "understood" when done by Muslims.
That, not phony reports about an American desecrating Koranic pages, should really upset Muslims. It won't. Just as the CBS and Newsweek debacles won't upset the American news media.
The lowest of the Muslim world and the elite of the Western world: Anti-Americanism makes strange bedfellows.
PS How about a few years ago when Palestinian Muslims used the Church of the Nativity as a fort. Any chritains riot?
Of course, but youre the reason i put "for the most part" in there. ~;)Quote:
Do I count as a liberal?
This is usually the case - but this time it seems that the whole thing is getting quite some airtime - it even was mentioned in the major TV news here in Germany which surprised me a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
Ok second question (I want to get my facts straight) am I in the "for the most part" or outside it with regards to this thread? :dizzy2:Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
Beginning to sound like yes minister.