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Hobilars are nothing more then a lightly armored(if it all) warrior on a second-rate horse, right? Not suprising that when charging into a group of men they get surrounded and killed. Archers don't need to be expert swordsmen to pull a guy off his horse and stab him when hes looking the other way. :P
I kinda think of them as a spearman on a horse. I think stat wise thats pretty accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosLord
I dont think infantry are overpowered. Remember longbowman are tougher h2h than vanilla archers. I think if they hold against an initial charge from hobbies, then you should be worried about the hobbies surviving the incident. They classify them as light cav for a reason. That means no barding, little to no armor for the rider. They are fast and light to harass and chase down routers. You shouldn't charge them head on into anything except maybe peasants.
Gentlemen,
No offense, but...you guys have obviously never been to a rodeo, or worked with horses. Palfreys, hobbies, barbs, and other light horses are light only in comparison to Percherons and other warhorses from hell. They're still quite large compared to ANY person. Not only that, but they have minds of their own, and kick, punch, bite, and just crush people with their sheer weight. And it's still trained as a warhorse -- it's not shy about being a weapon in and of itself. Only heavy infantry can stand against cavalry, and then only if that heavy infantry is in good order and well-supported. A light horse like a Galloway that's no more than 14-15 hands starts out at around 600 pounds, and can get up to the 850s or higher. And it doesn't like you.
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Here's a thought experiment for you. Think American football. How many of you think you'd be CONSCIOUS, let alone fighting, after taking a 4-6g impact from one of these monsters if he was actually trying to hurt you, rather than just playing a game? You know why they outlawed the flying wedge in football?
Pick your biggest defensive linemen out there. Double his weight -- at minimum. Now put a guy with a sword, spear, or light, long mace on top.
Got that? Now have a line of forty of these linebackers-from-hell hit you ...at 30 miles per hour, coordinated by said very unfriendly men on top, and see what happens to your formation. Oh, and just to make it interesting, let's consider morale here. So, said foot formation isn't made up of cylons: YOU, your brothers, and other guys you hang out with on a regular basis and care about have to stand in that formation, and decide when your lives are more valuable than another pull on your bow.
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(Longbowmen tougher in combat? Sure, they had big mallets, and were motivated. Longbowmen as some kind of 9' tall Anglo-Saxon death machines? Tell that to the ones who got rolled up at Patay... the longbowmen at Agincourt were able to hold their own against French men at arms SOLELY because of the muddy terrain, and combination of overcrowding and exhaustion on the french side. One should not confuse Edward IIIs, and Henry V's tactical genius with longbowmen somehow being supermen.)
Archers, bulgarian brigands, longbowmen, highland clansmen*, jobbagy, all your Q-random swordsmen, and similar infantry should MELT in the face of a cavalry charge of any type. Similarly for disordered spearmen. Why do I say that this should happen? Because it *did*, gentlemen. That halberdiers, Anglo-Saxon shieldmen, Swabian greatswordsmen, and other heavy infantry were sometimes able to repulse cavalry --and at other times died to the man... (cough)Civitavecchia!(/cough) -- by no means lessens just how ridiculously overpowered the rest of the infantry were when faced by horsemen.
*That's why the Scots had **spearmen,** after all! The Scots didn't do **** to the English in open-field battle except via the schiltrom and light horsemen, and only then when they put terrain to their advantage. That's why the Scots generally generally avoided open battle.
Edit :language
Nice explanation Russ.
(for anyone who might take issue with his points, check out the "describe yourself" thread and read Russ's post - methinks he knows of which he speaks....)
DE
Thanks for the info Russ. :bow: But seeing as though your the guy to ask. Me and my housemate always had a niggly question about horses in war/battle. Were Shire Horses ever used for warhorses? Or were they considered pure farm work horses etc? I just always thought it would be insane to have these behemoths charging down on you, with or without armour and an armoured rider. :dizzy2:
Don't put me on a pedestal, guys. It's a big thousand years over a lot of different countries.
I do know who'd you'd ask... a gal named.... crap, just fell out of my head, she did a book called "the medieval warhorse."
I'm unfamiliar with the Shire Horse as a breed, but most of the draft horses came about in attempts to breed a horse that was big around, crossed with something that had the height of a Percheron.
I'll see if I can dig anything up for you.
Cool. Much appreciated. :bow:
According to this link:
http://www.imh.org/imh/bw/shire.html
They were definitely used as destriers. Judging by their size, they look about average for the job. (Just to give you an idea of why heavy cav beats light cav.... the horses think it's THEIR fight, and them little guys can't stand up to the linebackers -- for this reason alone the Hungarian heavy cav were often able to simply wipe the field with the Ottomans, at least until the latter figured out how to adapt. On the other hand, them little turcoman horses and ponies can survive anywhere and eat anything, just like barbs, which is a hell of a strategic advantage. So it's a tradeoff. Speed vs. power.)
I never said the horses wern't deadly, but they can't be everywhere at once. Picture this, a unit of hobilars on default size 4 rows deep charges into a unit of archers 3 rows deep. Thats 10 horses and men charging into Just 20 men alone on the back row, 20 more if they drive into it. Now you're telling me that among these 20-40 men none of them would end up alongside the horse rather then infront of it or behind it(to avoid the hooves) and be able to pull down the rider?
I will agree that horses dieing so easily is odd, but they die with the rider in M:TW. Aren't battles full of examples where cavalry is surrounded by foot infantry and the riders pulled off? Once the inertia of the charge is gone, they're usually sitting ducks unless heavily armored. M:TW represents this quite well I think.
Um, yes, but you're missing a very important question: with *light* infantry, what stops that momentum?
Seriously: most horse archers in history didn't do the Turcoman thing and stay continually at a distance... they pounded the snot out of infantry, and when there were enough gaps, or the infantry was light enough, they ran them over.
You don't think 60 men albeit lightly armored/not armored at all can stop 10-20 horses? Assuming the men don't break from the charge I don't think its a stretch to see the charge lose its momentum by driving into them. I also don't think Hobilars would have as well-trained horses being cheaply supplied and the like as well. I can't remember their description at the moment but it talks about them not being as good as other available horses at the time.
No sir, I don't... not when the other twenty to thirty are piling into them as well... not when the men are lightly equipped, the horses trained, and the men beating the hell out of everything in reach. Ever been shouldered hard by a horse? I know a guy who works for the Higgins who has been... injured and down on his ass. And that was in late 15th-cent. plate. Not to mention the morale factor for guys for whom a mail shirt or an archer's lamellar is as much as they wear. Man, you're from Oklahoma... try sitting in the front row of the rodeo, and tell me you could stop a wall of those things, riding in disciplined order...
But you don't have to take my word for it... go check out Napoleonic cavalry... they can't make it through bayonets too well, but if they can catch the men in disorder or not absolutely set for them... toast.
(And part of that is, in order to keep good order, the men pretty much have to stay put. "Good order" opposing horsemen is literally shoulder-to-shoulder tight.)
EDIT: No, hobbies aren't as good for fighting as the other horses... but those other horses are DESTRIERS... it's all about context, amigo...
Well, the other twenty to thirty horses would have to get past the others horses infront of them first, so I guess it would depend on how the charge went some. So I supposes its a matter of wether they can keep their formation together or not. But all i'm going off of is odd bits i've picked up here and there and my own twisted brand of logic. ;) So i'll concede that in real life they might have had that effect, but in M:TW it works fine just how it is to keep game balance.
Oh, and oddly enough despite living in Oklahoma i've never been to the rodeo. I don't think Hobilars were all that disiciplined though.
Russ you have made some very valid points. Let me counter with some more. I have seen a horse up close and personal, and I've ridden on a few. I will definately agree that they are big, powerful animals, even the small ones. I even saw a guy lightly flank-checked by one. He was on the ground and dazed. They are even intimidating, police use mounted officers to subdue crowds for a reason.
First of all I said "if" the longbowmen didn't break. When I typed it I meant it as a very big "if". I have yet to see any archers stand their ground from a charge of hobbies from behind and not break. But with that said I suppose a unit of longbowmen with a high valour led by a general with a high rank may, just may not rout. Remember valor = experience. High valour units mean these guys are vetrans, they have been in battle many times and maybe they know a few tricks about how to deal with cavalry. With that said I still would assume they would break after all it is a cav charge from behind.
Next, I said that longbowmen are tougher than vanilla archers because they are. It's coded in the game that way. Check out the unit production file. They have better attack and morale stats than reg archers, if I remember correctly. This certainly does not make them machines of doom. I never suggested they were, I just said they were tougher than reg. archers.
OK in the example given by chaos lord. These 10 horses are charging, at full tilt thus the word charging, into 3 rows of men and then the backs of the billmen. The billmen were from the original example. From the game itself the frontage on the hobbies are automatically smaller than the frontage of the longbowmen so if they dont break, (which in this case was assumed) they are automatically have longbowmen on their sides. Now watch this, I am going to assume that these horses, as powerful as they might be, are not going to be able to charge through the 3 rows of archers and I will guess the 3 rows of billmen protecting them. So the leading edge of the hobbies is going to slow, but what about the 3 rows of hobbies behind the leading edge?
Either they are going to crash into the hobbies in front of them, or they are going to start to slow down. Either way if the 2 ground units are still intact after the charge these hobbies are surrounded by billmen and archers.
Now they either have to hack through or turn around and charge out. When they do either they are going to be attacked by the infantry units they are in the middle of. Units that know how to deal with cav, which is knock the rider of the horse. History itself has pointed out that even a trained warhorse will flee if their rider is unhorsed. Very few if any would stay and fight. That is a myth of stories and movies although I am sure their are rare exceptions.
So according to my calculations this unit of longbowmen and their supporting unit of billmen didn't break only because they had high valour and then were led by a high ranking general. That is pretty rare in and of itself and would put them in the ranks of an elite fighting force. Then these 2 units could be compared to in history like other elite units that pulled off similarly onheard of feats. Recall the battle at thermopolae(sp)? or the alamo?
With all this said, I will still concede the point because as I said at the top I have never seen a group of archers stand their ground if charged from behind with a unit of light cavalry. I said "if" for 2 reasons. 1. anything's possible and 2. I was using the statement as a cost comparison. I was pointing out that if you destroyed the longbowmen but still lost the hobbies from an economical standpoint you still won. It costs the enemy more to build that unit of archers than it did for you to build hobbies.
-->High valour units mean these guys are vetrans, they have been in battle many times and maybe they know a few tricks about how to deal with cavalry. With that said I still would assume they would break after all it is a cav charge from behind.
This is entirely possible in game terms. There are historical means to break such a charge... palisades, bottes, that sort of thing. Especially against a wedge with lances, that if becomes huge (does anybody actually use the wedge formation in MTW? I gave it up in disgust after continuously watching my lead horse come to a screeching halt on contact with the enemy...). Now, could the truly veteran archers keep their heads enough to keep shooting while the other guys got run down? Yeah, I can see that. Take guts of steel, tho.
--->Next, I said that longbowmen are tougher than vanilla archers because they are. It's coded in the game that way. Check out the unit production file. They have better attack and morale stats than reg archers, if I remember correctly. This certainly does not make them machines of doom. I never suggested they were, I just said they were tougher than reg. archers.
This is my fault for conflating history and game mechanics. Yes, longbowmen are clearly coded as very dangerous units. I"m mostly an East-Central Europe fan, but I was amazed when my Royal Knights were done down and dirty attacking a group of these guys on the charge...
--->OK in the example given by chaos lord. These 10 horses are charging, at full tilt thus the word charging, into 3 rows of men and then the backs of the billmen. The billmen were from the original example. From the game itself the frontage on the hobbies are automatically smaller than the frontage of the longbowmen so if they dont break, (which in this case was assumed) they are automatically have longbowmen on their sides. Now watch this, I am going to assume that these horses, as powerful as they might be, are not going to be able to charge through the 3 rows of archers and I will guess the 3 rows of billmen protecting them. So the leading edge of the hobbies is going to slow, but what about the 3 rows of hobbies behind the leading edge?
Either they are going to crash into the hobbies in front of them, or they are going to start to slow down. Either way if the 2 ground units are still intact after the charge these hobbies are surrounded by billmen and archers.
Charges are performed at the canter, not the gallop: the horses have time to change direction. Also, this depends on how the cavalry is trained. Polish cavalry, for instance, specifically trained a gap between the first row in and the second, so that charges had no pileup, but instead hit with a sort of stutter. If they follow the tactics of hungarian hussars, when they hit that line the guys behind would turn and use the horses to "shave the corner" off the formation. In MTW, clearly they will stop: I've had cavalry charges stopped by a singe line of slavic infantry before. The billmen should be vastly, vastly less likely to break than the archers. Run a hundred times, the billmen SHOULD occasionally not break... the archers should simply be vaporised.
And successfully breaking that charge should be the stuff of epic. Giovanni Villani was literally hauled out of bed in the middle of the night with the new that the Flemish had broken the French at Courtrai... for days afterwards, many of those militia-men with their godendags (spearhammers from hell) were literally unable to put their weapons down, because fear had locked their hands on the shafts that tightly...
--->Now they either have to hack through or turn around and charge out. When they do either they are going to be attacked by the infantry units they are in the middle of. Units that know how to deal with cav, which is knock the rider of the horse. History itself has pointed out that even a trained warhorse will flee if their rider is unhorsed. Very few if any would stay and fight. That is a myth of stories and movies although I am sure their are rare exceptions.
Yes, but one should also assume cavalrymen who know how to handle footmen? You have to balance that equation... if the horse is kicking and biting and bashing, getting to where you can pull the guy down is non-trivial. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, any more than a guy couldn't try to get in and hamstring the horse (better luck with the bill, less chance of getting kicked into Tibet for your effort).
-->So according to my calculations this unit of longbowmen and their supporting unit of billmen didn't break only because they had high valour and then were led by a high ranking general. That is pretty rare in and of itself and would put them in the ranks of an elite fighting force. Then these 2 units could be compared to in history like other elite units that pulled off similarly onheard of feats. Recall the battle at thermopolae(sp)? or the alamo?
Oh, absolutely. Stamford Bridge is still one of my favorites.
-->With all this said, I will still concede the point because as I said at the top I have never seen a group of archers stand their ground if charged from behind with a unit of light cavalry. I said "if" for 2 reasons. 1. anything's possible and 2. I was using the statement as a cost comparison. I was pointing out that if you destroyed the longbowmen but still lost the hobbies from an economical standpoint you still won. It costs the enemy more to build that unit of archers than it did for you to build hobbies.[
And for the record, I'm happy to admit that having the billmen potentially changes the game -- if they're in good order. I also wish I could take your word and simply substitute "charged," or even "charged from the flank." Unfortunately, I haven't seen a way in the unit specs to really code for that. Wish I could remember the name of that battle in Wales... the Welsh show up with around 800 spearmen, the English have a score or so of archers, a few local men at arms, and one local lord's retinue (20-30 knights). Bridge battle ensues. When the men at arms are finally pushed off the bridge, the knights stay back, because they can't do a thing to help... except hen the spearmen then went after the archers and became disordered... at which point the retinue threw the battle completely by charging into the disordered spearmen, running down nearly half of them in the process.
Generically speaking, morale and valor code for order... but that creates situations where units are always in good order just because they're good -- even if their commander orders them to do something stupid.
Year 1097, I m leading an assault 2 Whales. 20 Royal knights and my heir tried to charge,wedge-formatted,and flank 60 longbowmen. The bastards after their initial shock for being outflanked have managed to kill every singe one of my knights including my heir. I stopped believing to cavalry. My armies from then on are only artillery, lots of archers that soon become mighty arbalesters, and mainly spear-holding units. Who needs cavalry after all?
I may be mistaken here - but it seems what I am reading is that "historically" (and factually) a charging horse is DAMN hard to withstand.
However, in the GAME - mechanics have been adjusted somewhat with an eye toward playability and balance.
From what I recall of my various readings over the years, a trained warhorse (heavily or lightly armored) is something to be feared - their training, size, and strength make them formidable opponents in and of themselves.
Twenty or thirty (or more) of them, working together - with seasoned fighting men atop them - would scare the crap outta me...
At the risk of putting words in someone's mouth - I think the historical/factual reality is, in most cases - a charge of well trained warhorses against foot has a very high chance of breaking through. If I understand correctly, MTW does not "model" that aspect very well or at all (for gameplay and balance purposes I assume). As Russ indicated - there WERE ways to break a charge - palisades etc - but those are not modeled in the game.
One of the things I love about the game, is that it gives rise to discussions like this, and then I learn more about historical events and such as a result.
your mileage may vary...
DE
A cavalry charge is an interesting thing to see, especially from the targets point of view. You see them walking and can hear them coming, and then when the charge starts (@50-80 m away) the ground under your feet starts shaking, ... alot. I don't think anyone not specifically trained for the occasion would try to stand in the way.
Note:
The momementum of one horse @ 6000 kgm^2/s^2 applied to the inertial mass of an infantrymen on a good day = about 1 to 8 G's/s backwards or at an angle depending on the angle of impact. (This is an instantaneous change in acceleration, or jerk in this example). This is a light horse, moving at a canter (18-20 km/h). A heavy horse (clydesdale/shire) in armor slows the speed to @15k/h, but the higher gives a little more impact, and due to the size of the horse it is in a more downward vector. (being slammed to the ground at 5 g's is enough to disturb anyones state of mind)
If the infantry is doing what it should with their long sharp pointy sticks the horse will impale itself with all this momentum, and if the cavalry is doing what it should with their pointy sticks they will keep away from the long sharp pointy stick people (we can call them spearmen) and attack other cavalry and troops who have shorter pointy sticks.
All in all, the game does a very good job of simulating this.
mfberg
And if the cavalry REALLY knows what it's doing, it'll hit the guys with the long pointy sticks while the sticks are pointed in the wrong direction, or insufficiently in the right direction... it's merely my opinion that "short pointy stick" guys need a serious defensive penalty against cavalry that isn't currently in the unit list.. or for charge bonuses to be inflated across the board.
That's a mod issue, however.
As an aside, you then have Sarmation, Polish, and to a much lesser extent, Hungarian heavy cavalry, which used outsized-long lances specifically so they could charge pikemen and win... as opposed to the French, who detested the hollow lances, b/c in their own role as opposing-cavalry-killers, the hollow lances were much less useful in spite of their added reach...
The wedge formation is on of the most misunderstood formations in MTW. The way the game calcs a charge goes something like this.
The game gives the charge bonus to the first man in the charging unit that makes contact and there is one of three things that happen.
1. The charging unit kills a man in the unit that recieves the charge. In this case the charger keeps his bonus and continues to move forward. The men in the charging unit who can engage will get the bonus until the charge is stopped.
2. The charging unit does not kill the man in the unit recieving the charge. If this is the case the charge stops.
3. The charging unit dies. In this situation the results replicate 2., except for the obvious the charging unit lost of of their men.
Now that the mechanics are known it is more effective to charge inbetween 2 units then charge into the middle of one unit. I am not quite sure how the exact mechanics work but I will give an example of how i used this charge effectively.
I was playing the Brits and attacking, I believe, the Spanish. They had two unit of feudal MAA in a line standing side by side. Behind them were a line of archers. I didnt have alot of cav, just one units of royal knights. I had a unit of clansmen run around the MAA line. I set the knights in a wedge and charged them inbetween the 2 MAA units. It looked like this:
>-^-<
The greater than less than signs are the clansmen, the dashes being the MAA and the royal knights being the "^". As you can see the clansmen hit the MAA from the side and the MAA were seperated by the knights as they charged through and then proceeded to attack the archers in the rear. The enemies lines help for about 10 sec and then crumbled as the MAA and the archers routed. My casualites were minor I lost 2 knights and a handful of clansmen. I claimed many prisoners but I cannot remember exactly what the enemies kill count was.
I don't know why this worked so well but I reloaded the battle and did the same this minus the knights. This battle turned into a slug fest that I did win but suffered huge casualties.
So i guess if it the wedge is used judiciously it does work, it just doesn't work the way most of us think it would.
Oh and another point I forgot yesterday valor works for and against the cav as well. Low valour units are going to not be as effective. You could use your imagination and say their charge is sloppy, the unit isn't tightly packed or what not. If the valor for the archer cav thing was reversed and the cav had an 8 valor the archer line is gone and maybe the billmen as well, or at least well on their way to routing.
I think to achieve what you want Russ you would have to be creative while tinkering with the unit files. You might want to tinker with the valour stats. Maybe raise them up 1 point at a time. The bonus they will get to att, def, and morale(?) for higher valour will indirectly give them better charging values. Thus they would perform better against some of the lesser rated infantry in the game.
Phew, all this started by King Kurt who just wanted to say, HOBILARS ROCK !!
Yeah, but what a GREAT discussion. ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior
DE
TW doesn't have a 'punch through' feature. Inertia doesn't carry though charges. It's kinda like how MTW doesn't have a move and shoot feature like RTW.
If one is working on a reduced number of units, so that it's not too unwieldy, one could make light infantry afraid of cavalry types... that would make for the morale effects of facing horsement... except of course for those trained for the job... (since spearmen will try to fight horsemen, their success being determined by their order, as opposed to archers getting rolled up en masse with no hope of winning).