Shame on us

I don't think I made myself very clear if people think I saw the famine footage and decided I just needed to do something to help the famine victims. I saw the famine footage and I had an epiphany, a simple thought entered my mind, There is absolutely no reason for hunger anywhere in the world. Yes, by all means, it is incumbent on me to try to end it here in the United States. It's also incumbent on me to try to end it wherever else it exists.

I found a charity I actually think takes a great approach. It's called Project Heifer. It was featured on 60 Minutes (but don't let that slow you down). Rather than feeding people, their approach is more long term. The money you donate buys an animal that is given to a member of a village someplace. They also are trained on how to care for and raise the animal. When the animal has offspring, the pass the gift on to other members of their village. Their big focus is long term sustainable strategies.

For short-term, urgent relief, I sponsored a child on World Vision. I know I need to learn more, do more, but for the time being, until I know more, this is as good as anything I can come up with.

If anybody's interested in finding a charity that meets their personal requirements for giving, I HIGHLY recommend Charity Navigator It helps you find charities for any cause you think needs your help, will tell you how well they do in terms of transferring funds to actual project work, what the CEO's salary is, and how that charity stacks up against others doing the same work.

So let me get this straight...

1. We feed little Mr and Mrs Starvin' Marvin. They grow up happy.
2. Mr and Mrs Starvin' Marvin make more little Mr and Mrs Starvin Marvin
3. Mommy and Daddy can't feed the little ones so now we get to feed the little ones in addition to the big ones
4. The little ones grow up and then make a third generation. And we get to feed them too.
5. Where does it end?

Don, I like you and I respect you. But I don't see why I should give a crap about the worlds largest virus maker. The continent used to able to feed itself. Now it can't. Why is that? Too many people. How do you get rid of too many people? They die. What makes the death of one little kid in Africa any sadder than the death of one little kid in the US or Europe?

Also, as GC pointed out:

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In the United States, 13 million children live in households where people have to skip meals or eat less to make ends meet. That means one in ten households in the U.S. are living with hunger or are at risk of hunger.

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We don't follow the same pattern as Africa does. I know France doesn't for example (what, 1.2 kids per woman? oh crap...). I don't think we can fix Africa's starving problems. But we can fix the problems in the US and Europe. I will check out your sites Don. Personally, I've always liked the Salvation Army.

Azi

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Originally Posted by Azi Tohak

The continent used to able to feed itself. Now it can't. Why is that? Too many people. How do you get rid of too many people? They die. What makes the death of one little kid in Africa any sadder than the death of one little kid in the US or Europe?

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I don't think it's that simple. The continent of Africa has a lower population density than the US, and is much lower than many European countries, yet no one is claiming that they have too many people. I won't outline my thoughts again (I did earlier in this thread), but the problem manifold and certainly just throwing money or debt relief at Africans is going to accomplish little or nothing helpful.

I agree Don. There is no reason for hunger in the world. However, some people in power will see them as "useless eaters" (do a search on this), with nothing to add. I think every person has a right to basic human rights, and getting good food and water is one of those. It has been said many times. If just 10% of what is spent on the Military is diverted to these causes properly, the world would be a better place.

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Originally Posted by JAG

I also don't see how there is a conflict between giving aid / food etc and wanting political reforms home and in the African countries themselves. Both can and should be done, we shouldn't really be bickering about which is more important, but doing all of them.

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So we should just suck it up and give to the People's Red Bread Basket Organization? (Yeah, I made it up. Humor me.)

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

I don't think it's that simple. The continent of Africa has a lower population density than the US, and is much lower than many European countries, yet no one is claiming that they have too many people.

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I know. Because you can't point out that maybe... just maybe... Africa can't support as many people as there are. Which means there should be fewer people. But that means people die. Which is bad. M'kay?

So why are they starving? Too dumb to farm? Soil gone from poor farming practices? (look at the ever expanding blob of the Sahara) Nothing is going to bring that back. Kicking out all the competent farmers because they are a different color (see my Farming thread here in the Backroom)?

What I don't understand is why hunger is 'curable' now. See my previous post for the story of Mr and Mrs Starvin' Marvin. We feed them... they just come back stronger... If an area can't support the number of people there are, maybe those people shouldn't be there?

I'm not saying I don't think it is sad about the people there. I'm saying that there will always be hunger. Just like there will always be hatred, emnity, disparity.

Azi

Is there a cut off date for "blame the west" excuses? The year 2050 perhaps? 2100 AD? When? When does Africa accept responsibility for it's own screwed up situation? I live in Canada, others Australia, NZ, America. These were once colonies as well. South America, Asia, the Pacific, in fact just about every place on earth was a european colony at one time or another! So why is Africa a basketcase? Colonialism is an excuse everyone has, and it just doesn't wash.

I feel sorry for those poor people, but not the slightest bit guilty or ashamed. They are the one's who should be ashamed for doing nothing about the problems while famine after famine takes their friends and neighbours!

This guy says pretty much what I think.

“In as much as I agree that slavery, exploitation, and colonialism in all its forms is evil, inhumane, sinful and injurious -- we have had time to correct some of the imbalances and injustices; we have had time to map our future and our destiny; we've had time to climb the highest mountains.” We use slavery and colonialism as a cop-out. We blame the West for everything real and imagined that has ever happened to the continent and her people. This must stop!


http://www.nigeriavillagesquare1.com...g-to-paul.html

Well the shame is on us in the western world - especially for taking Don's thread about his shame from not fully understanding the crisis - and turning it into the standard us verus them thread.

Yes indeed Don - shame on us all for allowing stravation to still exist - primarily because of politics.

Shame on us indeed for debating politics instead of helping Don find a worthwhile charity that will suit his needs for contributing to help solve a problem.

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Originally Posted by sharrukin

Is there a cut off date for "blame the west" excuses? The year 2050 perhaps? 2100 AD? When? When does Africa accept responsibility for it's own screwed up situation?

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As soon as we stop contributing to the situation Id say. Throwing piles of cash at the problem allows western governments to pat each other on the back and say how charitable we are- but it does little or nothing to solve problems and in many cases allows them to grow worse.

I don't think we need to blame ourselves as the creators of Africa's problems. Surely, as others have said, if they had the will to fix their problems, they would have by now. And in some cases, they're making improvements. In others, well...

My sense of shame and guilt has nothing to do with past colonialism and everything to do with the fact that while I was working out in the gym today at lunch, I literally watched a child starve to death. I watched another one scream and cry in agony at first as pieces of his flesh fell off from his weakened state causing a staph infection, then getting too weak to cry. By the end of the piece, he was dead too.

Is this a plaintitively emotive appeal? God damned right. I'm not a sociopath, and I won't pretend it didn't affect me.

Does Africa need long term solutions to deeper seeded problems then where their next meals are coming from? Of course. But do you honestly think those children give a rat's ass about reforming their governments or what our colonial ancestors did to their local ancestors while they're puking up blood and sneezing their sinus passages out right now?

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Originally Posted by Azi Tohak

So let me get this straight...

1. We feed little Mr and Mrs Starvin' Marvin. They grow up happy.

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and become more prosperous.

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2. Mr and Mrs Starvin' Marvin make more little Mr and Mrs Starvin Marvin
3. Mommy and Daddy can't feed the little ones so now we get to feed the little ones in addition to the big one.
4. The little ones grow up and then make a third generation. And we get to feed them too.
5. Where does it end?

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Well, in the end, as countries become more prosperous, the birth rate tends to fall. Emergent middle classes tend not to have as many children, so contribute more dollars to the economy, helping with reducing the aid required. So i wouldn't necassarily view it as a bottomless pit.

Alos to be honest, the ammount of money given out by all countries is pretty small (relative to the size of the economy.
The OECD set a target of 0.7% of GNP for aid for its members. Most countries aren't even giving that much at the moment.

And there are easy ways to make the money given go further, such as the 'untying' of aid. This could, in real terms, make a 30% increase in the value of aid given. in some area it might as much as double the real value.

So, Don, if you are looking for a way to make a real difference, look for an organisation that also supports the untying of aid.

At the moment, the money starts at governments, they give to local/international institutions, NGOs and so on down the line.

But they put conditions on its use, so the money can only be used to buy goods etc from the country the money came from. Imagine the carnage this produces in the buerocracy of the aid organisations.

So we need to make the Aid agencys more decision making ability. At the moment the thing is so cumbersome.

This isn't a panacea, but it they agencys can buy locally, they can get much more bang for buck, by using the money to help aid the locals in the local economies, as well as hunting around for good deals internationally.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I don't think we need to blame ourselves as the creators of Africa's problems. Surely, as others have said, if they had the will to fix their problems, they would have by now. And in some cases, they're making improvements. In others, well...

My sense of shame and guilt has nothing to do with past colonialism and everything to do with the fact that while I was working out in the gym today at lunch, I literally watched a child starve to death. I watched another one scream and cry in agony at first as pieces of his flesh fell off from his weakened state causing a staph infection, then getting too weak to cry. By the end of the piece, he was dead too.

Is this a plaintitively emotive appeal? God damned right. I'm not a sociopath, and I won't pretend it didn't affect me.

Does Africa need long term solutions to deeper seeded problems then where their next meals are coming from? Of course. But do you honestly think those children give a rat's ass about reforming their governments or what our colonial ancestors did to their local ancestors while they're puking up blood and sneezing their sinus passages out right now?

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I had the exact same feelings when I saw the coverage. That child looked like my son, same age and all. To think of my children in that condition, God have mercy. Then I thought of the parent's misery and agony to see their children die like that. I will never know such suffering, it was 5 minutes of extreme feelings of pain and heartfelt agony for those people. Then CNN went to another story. That's the shame I felt. Its like when I worked in a Korean orphanage when I was stationed there every other week. I only provided those children one day every two weeks the love and care they DESERVED and NEEDED, then I was back to my own world. Stuff like this makes you look at yourself in the mirror. Don, I appreciate this thread because of my self absorbtion, i had put those images of those starving and helpless people in the back of my mind, now its where it should be. I agree that we can't just throw money at the problem or play politics with it. But I do think everyone could pull together to help these people. If the UN could clean up its act and be completely open and transparent about its policies then I would happily support them and would encouraged my representatives in my country to assist the UN any way it can...

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I'm going to admit here: Niger is a unique case. They are starving because of droughts, and it is something you can just throw excess money and food at; and it's not something that would be a continual money sink.

My main problem is with the nations that have the corrupt warlords and dictators, and can't seem to stop waging civil war against eachother.

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Agreed, but there has got to be a way. There has to be an answer. ~:confused:

And there's plenty of ways to see the money gets there without going through the UN!!! If you want to give to a Christian charity, go to World Vision. If you'd prefer a humanist one, go to CARE. There's literally dozens of groups that are trying to solve the famine. Doctors Without Borders! I mean for Christ's sake... Pat Robertson & Susan Sarandon do not share television space on an issue ad over a passing fancy people!

I totally agree, putting Africans on aid is a long term disaster. Their governments will turn that aid on and off to directly affect their powerbase. But what if in the short run, we fixed the gaping wound in our humanity, and then work towards a better, more sustainable solution in the long term? One that makes Africans and South Americans and Asians, and Americans and Europeans for that matter, economically self sufficient? That should appeal to even the hardest hearted cash-capitalist out there... it did for me! Pay now, get them self sufficient and save yourself a fortune in the long run.

And one last thing. Anybody out there that calls themself a Christian and turns a blind eye... remember the warning Christ laid on us when He talked of those who would not feed Him when he was hungry... and remember how pleased He was with those who fed the hungry. How can you possibly say you follow Him and turn a blind eye to this?

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

And one last thing. Anybody out there that calls themself a Christian and turns a blind eye... remember the warning Christ laid on us when He talked of those who would not feed Him when he was hungry... and remember how pleased He was with those who fed the hungry. How can you possibly say you follow Him and turn a blind eye to this?

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And for that, I am ashamed for my attitude and lack of effort for the plight of the needy. God forgive me...

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I don't think we need to blame ourselves as the creators of Africa's problems. Surely, as others have said, if they had the will to fix their problems, they would have by now. And in some cases, they're making improvements. In others, well...

My sense of shame and guilt has nothing to do with past colonialism and everything to do with the fact that while I was working out in the gym today at lunch, I literally watched a child starve to death. I watched another one scream and cry in agony at first as pieces of his flesh fell off from his weakened state causing a staph infection, then getting too weak to cry. By the end of the piece, he was dead too.

Is this a plaintitively emotive appeal? God damned right. I'm not a sociopath, and I won't pretend it didn't affect me.

Does Africa need long term solutions to deeper seeded problems then where their next meals are coming from? Of course. But do you honestly think those children give a rat's ass about reforming their governments or what our colonial ancestors did to their local ancestors while they're puking up blood and sneezing their sinus passages out right now?

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Did giving money to the Ukrainian childrens fund help those starving children under Stalins regime?

Would giving money to Hitlers Germany have helped starving jews or Slavs?

The governments ARE the problem.

What if charity is the problem, not any help at all?

Very few people want to see starving people, especially children. I know I don't. The question is, how do we stop it? I mean really end it! Not just for a little while.

Africa has the resources which is why western companies are there to begin with. So they have the wealth to effect change. By us jumping in every time these things happen aren't we rewarding failure?

The Christian charity funds are usually the best, from what I have heard as the most money gets to it's final destination with them.

Sharrukin, I am glad you asked that!

Short term:
CARE, Doctors w/out Borders, Oxfam, World Vision, a whole of others. They are not trying to feed Niger forever, they're trying to get these people out of the mess mother nature put them in. They don't work with governments, they set up AID stations and ignore the government.

Long term:
ONE, Project Heifer,the Peace Corps, again, a whole bunch of others. Dealing more with making poor people's live viable & sustainable. Focusing on addressing the root causes of extreme povery and hunger. Also go about bypassing crooked governments and warlords.

The fact is, there is something you can do to help people today, and there's also something you can do to help people long term. You can do both today. I agree, they are not the same thing, but both are urgently needed.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Sharrukin, I am glad you asked that!

Short term:
CARE, Doctors w/out Borders, Oxfam, World Vision, a whole of others. They are not trying to feed Niger forever, they're trying to get these people out of the mess mother nature put them in. They don't work with governments, they set up AID stations and ignore the government.

Long term:
ONE, Project Heifer,the Peace Corps, again, a whole bunch of others. Dealing more with making poor people's live viable & sustainable. Focusing on addressing the root causes of extreme povery and hunger. Also go about bypassing crooked governments and warlords.

The fact is, there is something you can do to help people today, and there's also something you can do to help people long term. You can do both today. I agree, they are not the same thing, but both are urgently needed.

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Don, I wish, I really do wish you were right!

Maybe I am just too cynical here, but isn't this just the modern day version of Christian missionaries going in to clothe the natives and teach them to be good Christians. Colonialism brought them food and medicine which accelerated their birth rate, or rather, more correctly, lowered their death rate. Eventually the governmental structures and farming technology was outstripped by population growth. The endemic coups, insurgencies, corruption, civil and tribal conflicts exposed the population to famine and disease. This is the result of what people would call the good things colonialism brought such as medicine, better crops, and improved farming techniques.

This has been going on for at least 40 years, and year after year we see starving children and announcements of yet another plan to save Africa. It's gone from JFK's Peace Corps volunteers to Bob Geldof. Things have gotten worse, not better! Something is wrong with Africa and more of the same isn't going to fix it. Maybe it's time for us to stop playing god because, quite bluntly we suck at it!

I would very much like to be wrong about this!

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

You can do both today. I agree, they are not the same thing, but both are urgently needed.

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My fear is that we are sabotaging the long term prospects of Africa by indulging in the short term goal. African dependency may be the problem.

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I don't think we need to blame ourselves as the creators of Africa's problems. Surely, as others have said, if they had the will to fix their problems, they would have by now. And in some cases, they're making improvements. In others, well...

My sense of shame and guilt has nothing to do with past colonialism and everything to do with the fact that while I was working out in the gym today at lunch, I literally watched a child starve to death. I watched another one scream and cry in agony at first as pieces of his flesh fell off from his weakened state causing a staph infection, then getting too weak to cry. By the end of the piece, he was dead too.

Is this a plaintitively emotive appeal? God damned right. I'm not a sociopath, and I won't pretend it didn't affect me.

Does Africa need long term solutions to deeper seeded problems then where their next meals are coming from? Of course. But do you honestly think those children give a rat's ass about reforming their governments or what our colonial ancestors did to their local ancestors while they're puking up blood and sneezing their sinus passages out right now?

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What about starving children in America?

You shouldnt let this become a competition as to who can make you feel worse about yourself. Im sure I can find some pretty nasty looking poor people in this country you can throw your money at.. ~:handball:

If somebody needs help, if lizzel children are suffering then it is not the time to ask who has done something wrong, whose fault it is. We should help! I totally agree with you, Don.

I know the 'Brot für die Welt' program here in Germany. It is from the Catholic church. They collect money tofight hunger in the world. Do not know if 'Bread for the World' is the same.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

What about starving children in America?

You shouldnt let this become a competition as to who can make you feel worse about yourself. Im sure I can find some pretty nasty looking poor people in this country you can throw your money at.. ~:handball:

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Do you do it?

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If we in the West could get over ourselves and allow them to use DDT, the mosquito infestions and malaria epidemics could be all but eradicated. But no, we're letting thousands of humans die because it could, maybe, impact bird populations?

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The DDT issue isn't exactly a strong argument.
Affecting the bird population equals messing up the eco-system and birds isn't the only thing affected by it. It will kill of humans (in cancer) and other animals high up in the food chain.

And if you don't feel that this is enough, those mosquitos gets immune from DDT after a while...

It's a really effective substance. ~:rolleyes:

Don - there is a group set up for aid to Niger, formed by the most prominent charities over here, you can donate there via http://www.dec.org.uk/ if you are still after some way to help.

I thoroughly endorse them, they will not waste your money.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Agreed, but there has got to be a way. There has to be an answer. ~:confused:

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I don't know if it's the answer, but Africa isn't inherently flawed. There are deep seated problems with it, certainly, but there are a few countries that work. Botswana works really well - I'm just not sure how to get other countries to that point. Is the UN the answer? Probably not - too many vested interests. I've been wrangling with this question since I started studying economics - I've got all the theories about growth etc. the question is how to implement them.

The best I've managed to come up with is that the global community, must do everything it can to help a country that is genuinely trying to get out. This means everytime a group genuinely trys something that is on a sound basis, we've got to give them what they need - no matter if it's advice, money, military support etc. We've got to stop propping up dictators. We've got to stop playing politics with people. Maybe if we can get a few countries genuinely working, a few more will follow and then a few more. Is it worth doing a deal with the devil to fix a country? Bribe a dictator out of power?

Will this solve hunger now? No, certainly not. It probably wont solve it for the next generation either. But somewhere down the track, hopefully a generation wont go hungry.

Will this ever happen? Probably not. Maybe I can see some bright spots - I think the Australian intervention in the Sollomon Islands was a good start. Maybe that sad nation will have a genuine new chance. But there aren't a hell of a lot of bright spots, and for every bright spot there are five pits of darkness - convenient dictatorships etc.

This is not a rant against America. This is not a rant against anyone directly, except the international community. It's time we stopped playing politics with the lives of millions. If you can show me a good reason why we are letting millions of this generation die, and millions (billions) of future generations die, I will (with the utmost sorrow) accept that it has to happen. But nobody has shown me a reason yet.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

The DDT issue isn't exactly a strong argument.
Affecting the bird population equals messing up the eco-system and birds isn't the only thing affected by it. It will kill of humans (in cancer) and other animals high up in the food chain.

And if you don't feel that this is enough, those mosquitos gets immune from DDT after a while...

It's a really effective substance. ~:rolleyes:

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They only gain some level of immunity when it's used improperly- but even then it maintains a repellant effect. Links to bird "birth rate" declines and cancer are tenuous at best, you may want to check this out from Junkscience.com. And, even if you buy all the risks, DDT has saved hundreds of millions of lives while in use and would likely save millions in Africa were they allowed to use it sensibly. Instead, millions die from malaria that would be easily prevented if not for PC constraints- it could be virtually eradicated with DDTs responsible use for public health. Its important to remember that over 90% of its usage, and therefore its presence in the environment was for agricultural use, like protecting cotton crops. Allowing it to be used for public health would be in far lower levels than it had been used previously.