Big Byzantine Infantry

Online the base standard for VI is morale 8. Of course there's lots of varying florin levels, but for most melee troops morale 8 is the threshold between being a capable fighting unit or good runners.

Another way to look at it is that at high morale, say 12+, units will die on the field, or rout when they're down to the last man. Below 6 they'll run as soon as they get flanked, routing with more than half the unit still alive. Neither of these scenarios are very realistic or interesting. At morale 8 units tend to fight until they are reduced to 1/4 strength, are exhausted and are receiving other morale penalties like being hit with missiles, flanked, or outnumbered.

Of course at the start of a campaign we are forced to fight with low morale troops, but we frequently are up against other low end low morale enemies.

ichi :bow:

I think that the biggest shock I experienced, in progressing from STW to MTW was the morale factor and its role in the winning and losing of battes.

You pile in, with twice as many men as the enemy, similar quality troops and God knows what caused it but suddenly they're all running back to mama, with maybe only 15-20% casualties. WTFIUWT???

It just goes to show how habituated I had become to Shogun, where this kind of behaviour could be expected of your Ashigaru, even to the point of making a tactic out of it. The rest of your army, however, would do precisely what you ordered them to do, even if it was borderline suicidal for them to attempt it. It's a whole different ball game with MTW.

From what I hear about multiplayer and this whole upgrading business, that sounds like a whole other world... ~:eek:

IMO opinion it is perfectly REALISTIC for units to start running with less than 50% casualties. If you read historical accounts you'll see alot of support for lower casualty rates generally than we find in MTW.

I mean, this era is obviously a bit different Greek Hoplite warfare, when something like 90% of casualties were inflicted once one side started running... but it's still off if real historical numbers are your goal.

DA

Well, I think the 90% high casualty routing casualty rate is pretty much true for everything until World War II. Formation fighting is what caused high routing casualties because a man is only most effective when he is fighting with a group and dead on his own.

But anyways, 50% casualties is usually a very high number IRL.

The issue of when units routed historically has been discussed a lot in here, and the numbers appar to vary widely over time and between situations. The best gameplay occurs when units niether rout too soon or too late. Where that point is varies by person. For me I hate to see three guys still fighting after their 57 buddies got chopped. Below morale 8 units rout too quickly, or at least thats a good MP standard (10-15K)

ichi :bow:

I think part of the surprise factor came from having seen the 'new and improved' Total War engine on the 'Time Commanders' TV series, before I'd actually bought MTW.

I shouldn't have been as surprised as I was about the graphics quality being little more than a repaint of Shogun sprites. However, that's nothing compared to expectations of what the fights would be like.

The historical notes in Shogun mentioned that typical Sengoku Jidai era Japanese battles were over very rapidly, once battle was joined but Time COmmanders showed meleés carrying on for long enough to require editing to fit the programme. Close ups would show sword blows being exchanged, but very few actual kills (unless it was cav into spears LOL) and this, I thought, more fitted the bill of European style combat.

Of course, into MTW and 'time compression' or Japanese speed, if you prefer, seems to still be order of the day.

To me, the consequence of two units with similar ability slugging it out would be few casualties but the unit which becomes exhausted first will lose and I think exhaustion should be the fundamental thing which makes a unit rout. When you can no longer fight effectively, there is no point continuing and you will die if you try. If you have any energy left, then you run. Adrenaline works wonders in these situations - fighting is an act of will but flight is nature's own way of keeping you alive.

Historically though, great victories have been won by some very exhausted soldiers.

It's really a question about who's more motivated.

Exhaustion: I can imagine most troops of that era were totally knackered afterwards, even if they were the winners. Sadly my historical knowledge is too patchy to be able to recall any examples where exhaustion was specifically mentioned in the account. Can you?

Motivation: Aye, that's true. The occasional recklessness of the nobles probably had a lot to do with promises of land ownership after conquest. Manifest displays of brave deeds were de rigeur, in order to get noticed. For the lower orders, there may have been occasions where there was a stark choice between high possibility death in battle or their liege-lord dishing out terrible post-battle retribution for them failing to do their sworn duty, such as having themselves and their family thrown out of tied accommodation... That's feudalism for you.

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Originally Posted by Patron

Pronoiai Allagion are exactly the same as feudal knights and I use them as such. They perform frontal charges when my byzantine cavalry have finnished emptying their quivers into the enemy, after they have engaged I send my byzantine cavalry into the flanks as they are usually all over the place trying to find a nice place to shoot from.

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Just curious about this. I'm up to 1180's and am still patiently waiting for construction in Nicaea to reach the point of building +1V PAs but only at armour level +1. I have been able to build silver-armour V0 PAs in Connie for quite some time now - and Kats, of course - but have only built one token PA unit so far. I'd like to keep the capital busy making VG's and the occasional Kat, to top up depleted generals' units.

Do you think the valour bonus outweighs the better armour, to the point that it makes more sense to wait for the Nicaea PAs to be ready and not attempt to stock up on 'interim' units, better armour notwithstanding, while I wait?

Also, would you have any comments on a policy of using PAs instead of Kats, for the desert battles and either/both for the arid and lush regions?

Your previous comment about Kat obsolscence has been noted. I see them described here as Panzer-like but mine mysteriously die a lot. Bizarrest of all, the losses I most frequently get to witness happening seem to involve missile fire and that's in spite of all their supposed armouring... very odd.

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Originally Posted by Patron

I also have a master gunsmith and master foundry in constantinople and am churning out culverins. This saves a lot of lives when it comes to taking down those huge citadels that dot the late medieval map.

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{sounds of hasty jotting-pad scribblings} ~;)

Hmm. According to Ya's Unit Master, 2 armour Porno Cav are evenly matched versus 1 valour Porno Cav. So it's really up to you. If I were you, just build another armourers guild in Nicaea

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Originally Posted by Grey_Fox

Hmm. According to Ya's Unit Master, 2 armour Porno Cav are evenly matched versus 1 valour Porno Cav. So it's really up to you. If I were you, just build another armourers guild in Nicaea

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Yes, that will surely come but it's either a 6-year or 8-year build (I forget the details and would a Citadel be required as well?) and the temptation to start production as soon as they're available is hard to resist!

Then again, it's the same for any units in the game. You always end up with an ugly mish-mash of differing armour levels of each unit type because it wasn't possible to sit and wait for the tech - the manpower was needed right away.

Thanks for the tip.

Valour increases morale +2, attack +1, and defense +1 per point. Armor increases armor +1 and defense +1. Valour is better than upgrades armor or weapons. Besides, cav doesnt' really need armor, they need defense. You're not going to use them as arrow bait are you?

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

You're not going to use them as arrow bait are you?

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Errr, no! ~:eek:

Chopping and chasing arrow units, certainly. Of course, if you chase one but 3 or 4 others are nearby at the time, then they're going to take some fire, so armour will help. Then again, I generally only send cav to singleton arrow units which the AI has been daft enough to leave isolated on open ground.

Main role, of course, will be taking out enemy RK, FK units without getting my general's Katanks involved, so any armour level better than that of the RKs will vertainly help.

The purpose of the question was finding out what to do about having better armour, no valour bonus in one training centre and valour bonus but inferior armour at the other centre.

Thanks to your reply, I can see that the additional +1 on defence, derived from +1V is as good as them having the next level up on armour. The +2 morale boost is probably worth even more to me, so I think it will be worth the wait and there's no need to 'stock up' and Constantinople can left to concentrate on silver VG's. ~D