Cultures aren't equal

We're still playing who got the longest here?

Louis,

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Thats not practicle in my opinion. Lets look at the mexicans..

Would you have spanish speaking teachers for mexican students? Would you have the government endorse spanish the same as english? Would you have mexican history taught as equal to american history? Would you allow groups that believe in Reconquista?

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First off, I don't think people in Mexico would care much about when the Spaniards kicked out the Muslims in Spain.
But I do think it is a bit foolish to have spanish only teachers. While speaking only spanish, it would be difficult to succeed in the US. If the student speaks only spanish, then they need to have a teacher to help teach them english that speaks spanish in order to help learn. But students will need to know how to speak english.
About the History, I think that we learn focus far to much about American History, at least in my school. Two years is far to long for only 200 years or so, when we don't learn anything about the Greeks, Romans and their contemporaries and without anything about the Medieval era. So no, I wouldn't care much about the history of Mexico, but far to much is focused on American history.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

In other words the left was wrong again. ~;)

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Actually, "the left" was not wrong again. There is a big difference between multiculturalism and "tolerating intolerance."

I love and embrace diversity in my country (and there is a lot of it, particularly in the area where I live).

Multiculturalism means being able to take part in a potlatch ceremony in a Snuneymuxw big house in the morning, eat sushi for lunch, watch dragon-boat races in the afternoon, enjoy a tandoori dinner, and have an evening stroll to listen to the street performers near the harbor (everything from bagpipers to fire/eaters to country musicians).

That is multiculturalism, and quite frankly I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would be against it.

What multiculturalism is not:

• Tolerating an Imam who preaches hatred against Jews and Christians in the name of Allah
• Embracing aspects of other cultures that allow for the degrading or violent treatment of women
• Smiling indulgently and winking at each other when grampa complains about the "chinks" who own the corner store because "that's just his generation"
• Giving even an iota of respect to a Christian who preaches hatred against gays in the name of Jesus

I think, Gawain, that you will find that almost all of us "lefties" are pretty good practitioners of the real multiculturalism, not the version of it like xenophobic authors of articles like the one you posted try to paint.

Every culture in the world has aspects of it that are shameful and/or distasteful. True multiculturalism is about embracing the good, not the bad. Especially since when you look at it, most of the ugly aspects of cultures involve intolerance, which runs directly against true multiculturalism.

Excellent post, Goofball - exactly to the point :bow:

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I think, Gawain, that you will find that almost all of us "lefties" are pretty good I think, Gawain, that you will find that almost all of us "lefties" are pretty good practitioners of the real multiculturalism, not the version of it like xenophobic authors of articles like the one you posted try to paint.of the real multiculturalism, not the version of it like xenophobic authors of articles like the one you posted try to paint.

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Goof I thought you said you were a conservative and you just proved it. Most of the left are indeed practitioners of multiculturalism but not in the way you say. They think its fine to have your own seperate culture in another land and that all cultures are equal. Any oposition is seen as opression and bigotry.

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

Excellent post, Goofball - exactly to the point :bow:

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Thanks SC.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Goof I thought you said you were a conservative and you just proved it.

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I'm shocked G! I thought you knew that simply being Canadian automatically put me about three steps left of Chairman Mao by American standards...

~;)

I'm definitely a fiscal conservative, but I am an extreme social liberal.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Most of the left are indeed practitioners of multiculturalism but not in the way you say. They think its fine to have your own seperate culture in another land and that all cultures are equal. Any oposition is seen as opression and bigotry.

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Well, I have to disagree. Most of my friends (like me) are young professionals who make (and want to keep, rather than hand over to the gov't) a lot of money, but also want to enjoy a rich, diverse society and we really don't give a crap if gays want to get married or women want to have early-term abortions. So, are we left or are we right?

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Well, I have to disagree. Most of my friends (like me) are young professionals who make (and want to keep, rather than hand over to the gov't) a lot of money, but also want to enjoy a rich, diverse society and we really don't give a crap if gays want to get married or women want to have early-term abortions. So, are we left or are we right?

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You are conflicted ~D

The point is that in general the left supports multiculturalism in any form while those on the right generally accept your version of multicultuarlism.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Goof I thought you said you were a conservative and you just proved it. Most of the left are indeed practitioners of multiculturalism but not in the way you say. They think its fine to have your own seperate culture in another land and that all cultures are equal. Any oposition is seen as opression and bigotry.

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It might be the case for American left. But you got no idea how close your "article" ("" included thanks to really poor text) is to French republican left!

You're a left commie in the closet ~D

Louis,

Again I ask: If you're not going to treat cultures equally, why would you treat people equally?

If you're ready to rank and judge cultures according to how they differ from yours, what basis is there for refraining from doing the same for people?

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Again I ask: If you're not going to treat cultures equally, why would you treat people equally?

If you're ready to rank and judge cultures according to how they differ from yours, what basis is there for refraining from doing the same for people?

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Ive said this numerous times. I lookat nations and cultures like people. I dont treat people or nations as equal. I look at them and judge them. I treat them equal in that I look at them all the same to start. Just as there are good and bad people there are good and bad cultures and nations.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

The point is that in general the left supports multiculturalism in any form while those on the right generally accept your version of multicultuarlism.

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Which left is that? Is that the "left" that is to the left of Dubya/Rove? Or the left of the GOP that was considered moderate at one time. Or the independents, or the personal liberty focused libertarian offshoots? Or the moderade democrats? Or the liberal democrats? Or the socialists, or communists?

"Generally" speaking of course... I've seen most xenophobic comments coming from those "generally" considered on the "right"--say, somewhere right of McCain...how far? I'm not sure.

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

This multiculturalism business is often sheer hypocracy. A few weeks I heard a report about how Oman is trying to defend its ancient heritage and its way of life. If someone said they were trying to defend their native culture in Britain, they'd be accused of racism! :dizzy2:

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If that meant starting Druid ceremonies that don't hurt anyone and being a tree hugger I don't see why.

If they said lets go back to being headhunters of anyone of a different village then I think it might hit a few problems.

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

What´s that culture thing you all talk about anyway?

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Culture:
The way we approach sex, drugs and rock'n'roll... plus a few minor side issues like how we approach language, food, religion and a very very minor side issue of philosophy ~D

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First off, I don't think people in Mexico would care much about when the Spaniards kicked out the Muslims in Spain.

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That is not the reconquista I was talking about. Many mexicans embrace the Reconquista of the southwest through immigration and block voting.

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Which left is that? Is that the "left" that is to the left of Dubya/Rove? Or the left of the GOP that was considered moderate at one time. Or the independents, or the personal liberty focused libertarian offshoots? Or the moderade democrats? Or the liberal democrats? Or the socialists, or communists?

"Generally" speaking of course... I've seen most xenophobic comments coming from those "generally" considered on the "right"--say, somewhere right of McCain...how far? I'm not sure.

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Once more you demonstrate your hypocracy. Well generally speaking that is ~D

PS when I or anyone says left or right I generally take that to mean of center.

Yeah Panzer, I know the ones you're talking about, that are all caught up with BS about "la raza" and stuff like that-- right now it all seems pretty harmless to me and I doubt most of them would be serious if it came down to it... but if it's ever necessary, I'll have no compunctions about killing them.

DA

Im just afraid as they become more numerous and start voting in block they will bring the same corruption and crappy government thats in Mexico to the US. The biggest problem in a democracy is the block voting, its hurt the south tremendously and it will do the same in the southwest sooner or later.

Seattle?

Isnt Washington above Oregon.. man I hope so or that would be embarrassing.

I was suggesting they probably arent as thick up there.

Panzer: It is my feeling that the kind of corruption they have in Mexico would be pretty damned difficult to transplant. Anyone with a reasonable shot at any kind of power would have grown up here, been educated here and gone to university here, and be infused with different notions. Plus the corruption in Mexico is also a self-feeding thing-- it always was corrupt and therefore it is difficult to make it otherwise. It would be pretty difficult to drag our comparitively clean system down to that level.

In fact I would imagine that any "Mexican" rising to be a cop or a politician, being an "outsider" would try and be twice as "American" and straight and good as anyone else. Mexico is a different world with a different reality. You transplant people here and they are different. It's that simple.

DA

Might I add that corruption is not an attractive cultural habit. A cop in Mexico fishes for bribes because his pay is inadequate without them, and because those who came before him did it-- not because he admires it as a positive thing. Additionally, those he stops for traffic violations will almost always prefer to bribe him than deal with the Mexican Dept of Revenue (which is a HASSLE, with a capital 'H').

So you see now that there are more layers to it? Nobody likes corruption, indeed in Mexico it is widely reviled, though accepted. Of all the possible things immigrants might like to bring into our system, it is probably on the bottom of the list.

Additionally, Mexican corruption starts at the top, i.e. with the decadent social elite. For better or worse, the immigrants we're getting are mostly the very dregs of their society.

DA

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Panzer: It is my feeling that the kind of corruption they have in Mexico would be pretty damned difficult to transplant. Anyone with a reasonable shot at any kind of power would have grown up here, been educated here and gone to university here, and be infused with different notions. Plus the corruption in Mexico is also a self-feeding thing-- it always was corrupt and therefore it is difficult to make it otherwise. It would be pretty difficult to drag our comparitively clean system down to that level.

In fact I would imagine that any "Mexican" rising to be a cop or a politician, being an "outsider" would try and be twice as "American" and straight and good as anyone else. Mexico is a different world with a different reality. You transplant people here and they are different. It's that simple.

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Good to hear. I havent really looked into mexican corruption, its just always bothered me that they are so backwards compared to the US and many of them want to come and change America...

Corruption is certainly not prized, but is it endemic of that culture? Ive got no idea, but its something to watch for..

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Once more you demonstrate your hypocracy. Well generally speaking that is ~D

PS when I or anyone says left or right I generally take that to mean of center.

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Gawain, I find it hard to imagine you have any idea where the center might be, but I would like to hear what you think "center" is. You are quoting the far right blogs endlessly, and as best I can tell nearly always in agreement with them.

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Gawain, I find it hard to imagine you have any idea where the center might be, but I would like to hear what you think "center" is. You are quoting the far right blogs endlessly, and as best I can tell nearly always in agreement with them.

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Why the center is left of me of course and the right of you.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Why the center is left of me of course and the right of you.

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Just as I thought, you have no idea.

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Just as I thought, you have no idea.

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Great intellectual reply. ~D

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Great intellectual reply. ~D

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You didn't give me anything worth working with... To me it just reaffirms that your whole supposition about multi-culturalism is unfounded.

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To me it just reaffirms that your whole supposition about multi-culturalism is unfounded.

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And just what is my supposition?

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

And just what is my supposition?

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That it is wrong headed "leftyism." You are so into this moral righteousness craze. Now you are trying to cut multi-culturalism into segments so that you can still conveniently transfer those you consider lefty's "over there, you know with the bad guys."

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Once more you demonstrate your hypocracy. Well generally speaking that is ~D

PS when I or anyone says left or right I generally take that to mean of center.

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Left? Right?

For sure it's a leftist position! It's about time Gawain find out what left really is! Get out of the US and stop thinking in US political term; you'd be a perfect fit for some French left wing political parties!

Left wing all the way!

Louis,