I think a proper evacuation was in order. That really should have been done IMO.
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I think a proper evacuation was in order. That really should have been done IMO.
I'm really bothered by the lack of security at the big shelter areas themselves, not to mention the apparent lack of water.
WTF? You've got people in a hot un-airconditioned building in New Orleans in summer from Sunday to Thursday and you can't supply them with water from outside the city at least? Remember people were initially sheltering on Sunday for the Monday morning storm. And the hospitals still not having fuel for generators? Every level is failing at this point. Sniping or not, that's why the guard is there, get it done.
My lady, over the past two days you have been lashing out in all directions to the effect that foreigners, Americans and Nahleanseans now all bear the marks of your razor-sharp nails. If I were you, I would make an exception for the Nahleansean victims and not add to their present burden by accusing them of a lack of foresight where most local, State and Federal authorities clearly showed very little or no foresight at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
'Fish always rot from head down' (Charlie Chan)
Quite a few could not get out. The roads were packed when I was checking the webcam. Tourists were stranded, no flights, no rental vehicles. Some residents had no transport (hence the busing to the Superdome, which was organized.) Folks in hospitals and such could not be moved. There are a large number who didn't chose to leave, but even best case getting this many out in such a short time is unlikely. People want out badly now, and still can't get out...Quote:
Originally Posted by _Martyr_
The original 1878 Act was meant to stop federal troops from supervising elections in the former Confederate states, and only covered the Army. It was expanded in 1956 to cover the Air Force as well. Oddly, the Navy and Marines are not subject to the Act itself, but were added solely under a Department of Defense regulation.
Congress may authorize such use, overriding the Act.
The National Guard is exempt from the Act, except when federalized. For example, the National Guard units called up for the Iraq War would have to officially stand down from that call up after returning before being used for any type of law enforcement.
The Act also allows the use of Army and Air Force troops in cases of domestic civil violence, such as riots. I think a case could also be made for the situation in New Orleans falling under such a provision.
The President can waive the Act in a declared state of emergency. Such would also seem to be allowable in the current situation. It doesn't have to be a declaration of martial law, just a declared emergency.
There are some other provisions which aren't relevant, such as those regarding military assistance to the Coast Guard in drug-smuggling law enforcement activities and a specific use allowing the Attorney General to request assistance from the Secretary of Defense for troops to be used as law enforcement in situations involving the use of a nuclear or radiological weapon on U.S. territory.
The Act has nothing to say regarding the use of the federal military for relief efforts, rescue work and the like. It only restricts the use of federal troops for law enforcement. As for engineering, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers was already tasked with the levee repairs. Flood control is one of their main peace-times jobs.
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough in my post. I meant why would anyone live there in the first place?Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
I've seen film of people in Florida who just moved there from some nice safe environment and a year later, when a hurricane tears their house into splinters, you see them crying on the TV "How could this happen?"
Gee, I don't know. Maybe because you live in a hurricane infested zone eh?!?
Again, I don't mean to be callous, but why would anyone chose to live in a place that sees a dozen hurricanes tear through each and every year? If you want to keep your family safe, shouldn't you pick your environment better?
The law is often applied incorrectly - even by the military. Primarily it is suppose to keep the military out of civil law enforcement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
The act does not prevent the military from providing assistance in the recovery effort - for examble providing aircraft and personal to conduct rescue operations does not fall withing the scope of the act. However directing traffic places the military in direct conflict with the act. Having the military order people to evacuate without certain conditions being might also constitutes a violation. However the active military is often left out because of other resources are suppose to be available to each state in their planning process
http://law.wustl.edu/WULQ/75-2/752-10.html
http://www.homelandsecurity.org/jour...Trebilcock.htm
The conclusion at the end of the homeland security link for the subject. Read the link its a short read and very informative on the act - if your not aware of what it is.
It seems that I am slightly behind the times in my understanding of the act. Which would indicitate to me that the beuraracy of the Homeland Security department and FEMA are in need of major overhaul to insure they have a more timely response plan - and are more active in the prevention of large scale loss of human life - by actualling linking some of the larger cities with the Military support to conduct evacuation through the states that city and the military base are in.Quote:
Is the Posse Comitatus Act totally without meaning today? No, it remains a deterrent to prevent the unauthorized deployment of troops at the local level in response to what is purely a civilian law enforcement matter. Although no person has ever been successfully prosecuted under the act, it is available in criminal or administrative proceedings to punish a lower-level commander who uses military forces to pursue a common felon or to conduct sobriety checkpoints off of a federal military post. Officers have had their careers abruptly brought to a close by misusing federal military assets to support a purely civilian criminal matter.
But does the act present a major barrier at the National Command Authority level to use of military forces in the battle against terrorism? The numerous exceptions and policy shifts carried out over the past 20 years strongly indicate that it does not. Could anyone seriously suggest that it is appropriate to use the military to interdict drugs and illegal aliens but preclude the military from countering terrorist threats that employ weapons of mass destruction? For two decades the military has been increasingly used as an auxiliary to civilian law enforcement when the capabilities of the police have been exceeded. Under both the statutory and constitutional exceptions that have permitted the use of the military in law enforcement since 1980, the president has ample authority to employ the military in homeland defense against the threat of weapons of mass destruction in terrorist hands.
For instance Fort Polk and the Military assests there could of been used in the evacuation plan of New Orleans if it was part of the process - instead of ignored or only used as part of the FEMA process. Allow the state agency to coordinate directly for resources with the military base. The Federal agency only needs to become involved to bless the plan after it has been coordinated and rehearsed by both the military and the city.
On Homeland Security and its planning and response - a little research while at work - is beginning to point some major problems with the bueruarcy (SP) that is the department of homeland security - it seems it is borrowing from the FEMA handbook and is only focusing on response not preparing and planning.
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display...4&content=4264
Quote:
The National Response Plan establishes a comprehensive all-hazards approach to enhance the ability of the United States to manage domestic incidents. The plan incorporates best practices and procedures from incident management disciplines—homeland security, emergency management, law enforcement, firefighting, public works, public health, responder and recovery worker health and safety, emergency medical services, and the private sector—and integrates them into a unified structure. It forms the basis of how the federal government coordinates with state, local, and tribal governments and the private sector during incidents. It establishes protocols to help
Save lives and protect the health and safety of the public, responders, and recovery workers;
Ensure security of the homeland;
Prevent an imminent incident, including acts of terrorism, from occurring;
Protect and restore critical infrastructure and key resources;
Conduct law enforcement investigations to resolve the incident, apprehend the perpetrators, and collect and preserve evidence for prosecution and/or attribution;
Protect property and mitigate damages and impacts to individuals, communities, and the environment; and
Facilitate recovery of individuals, families, businesses, governments, and the environment.
Now while I stated earlier that all 3 levels of government failed in their responsiblities to take care of thier citizens - it seems that again the governmental bueararcy (SP) as it goes up the chain of command - ie City, State, Federal - continue to all give lip service to the concept - and not actually fullfil their stated mission objectives. Even the Homeland Security website primarily talks about responding - not planning and preparing.
Absolutely - no cooperation or coordination between the three levels of government. Looks like each one washed their hands of the problem.
Some people want to live on the beach no matter the risk. Ports are busy and they support massive industry. People go where the jobs are. Others have lived there for a very long time, born and raised there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
Massive hurricanes don't hit all of these areas frequently. It is luck of the draw like 100 year floods. New Orleans has been where it is for 100's of years. If you want to avoid hurricane risk altogether you will have to depopulate the coast from Nicaragua to North Carolina. Not sure how many tens of millions of people that would be (or more.)
My last duty assignment - happen to be with the one of the units assigned to this command.
http://www.5tharmy.army.mil/
Notice how this applies to the discussion so far - I highlighted the part that is important to the discussion.Quote:
Fifth U.S. Army sends team to assess Katrina's impact
by Margaret Broadbent
Fifth U.S. Army Public Affairs
FORT SAM HOUSTON , Texas – Twenty-one members of the Fifth U.S. Army headed to Baton Rouge , Louisiana , today, to assess relief efforts in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. The Fifth U.S. Army area of responsibility covers a 21-state area west of the Mississippi , which includes Louisiana .
Brig. Gen. Mark A. Graham, the newly installed Fifth U.S. Army deputy commanding general, led the contingent to provide additional support to the Defense Coordinating Officer. The DCO is part of the support to FEMA and other state and local agencies responding to this catastrophic situation.
When FEMA requests help, the DCO and his element, from the 4 th Brigade, 75th Division, Fort Sill , Okla. , coordinate Department of Defense resources to assist civil authorities in Louisiana .
When local and state resources are exhausted, the DoD can bring unique capabilities to assist in restoring life support systems to the community. Examples include distributing food or supplies, providing clean water, establishing safe shelters, restoring communications, mitigating damage, or assisting in disease prevention.
Currently, the DCO is working closely with his First Army counterpart on the eastern half of the United States . The First Army's “Joint Task Force Katrina” has the responsibility for coordinating overall DoD relief efforts in the affected areas. Both the Fifth and First Armies fall under the control of Northern Command in Colorado during this disaster.
This is of course the military interpation of how FEMA and thier role in the process is to be done.
More reading about how the military is allowed to function within the scope of civilian assistance
http://www.homelandsecurity.org/jour...les/Lawlor.htm
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/c...tml/302515.htm
The reading all points to the civilian authority has to ask for assistance before the military can provide anything.
I don't think this is an American thing. We saw the same during the tsunami around the world. I think you can conclude it in 2 points:
1. People need to have somebody to blame, most natural is the government or a countrys highest office.
2. No politicians will ever be prepared for catastrophies. It's just not in the nature of a government to expect the unexpected.
Organisations like Red Cross are really needed in situations like this. All people with experience in these kind of situation should be kept in a "global" prepareness, since they would be able to react immediately and correctly. I would like to mention UN here, but will not since this debate should not be about that.
Bottomline. Surely US government is slow and unprepared, but its not something they are alone with. Any president, any government would have the same problems.
There was one only problem was the people who staye dwrent rich or middle class they were poor poor as dirt some of them still reeling from the effects of the civil war no telling how long this will take :embarassed:Quote:
Originally Posted by _Martyr_
If I could only find a connection, the paper cups would be hearing about it from me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
I'm a bit emotionally charged over a city that I loved so much being washed away. (That city's where I got my custom member title from.)
I miss the 'Nolia already.
Redleg,
Clearly nobody wants the military throwing their weight around uninvited. Hence the restrictions and requirement for State requests. Some of that is a holdover from "States Rights" arguments understandably.
I think we need to make these resources available early on, in the planning stage where they can provide some excellent guidance. Nobody in the world has the logistical/engineering capabilities of our regular forces, nor the experience in planning for out of the norm situations with damaged infrastructure. To me it makes sense to use them as the initial preparation and evacuation/rescue/security/relief response with the clear intent of coordinating with local authorities already in place who can help assess.
I tend to get into dreamer mode, but speed of response is what is needed. The potential for people waiting for several days without water in designated shelters screams for a more active role by the military. We can do a lot more good quickly if the military can prop up the mangled infrastructure, supply and security long enough for civil authorities to catch their breath and come up with a plan.
Don't get me wrong - I agree with alot in concept of what you are saying. The whole process has been found lacking in planning and preparing for a diaster of any magitude. And I believe you are on the right track on your thoughts - however to do what you are suggesting would require our Congress to draft new legislation (and it is needed btw for both the Posse and the Military Assistance to Civilian) that clearly spells out the mission and the role of the military in such efforts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
The more I think of it the more I like the thought of having the Active Duty military base of each state - and in some cases the Military base near several states - having the ability to be in direct coordination on a planning and preparing basis with the State agency in charge of emerancy planning and response - and cut FEMA out of the loop other then as a purely oversight agency of the Military Mission. This way the Governor of the state in need can immediately can for Military Assistance - skipping several levels of bueraracy. Spefic guidelines would however need to be establish so that the military is not overused for things the state should be able to handle on their own.
A few points:
First, the way the Superbowl situation has been handled is inexcusable. That was a known, pre-planned gathering location for approximately 15,000 desperate people. Their situation was known since Monday, but there seems to have been no effective policing provided, no on-site organization or regimentation of the population (hey, I had a Jesse Jackson moment ~D), and no adequate measures to provide food, water, sanitation, or any other necessities.
The National Guard should have had that facility under control by Tuesday, or early Wednesday at the latest.
As for the population that was not able to leave New Orleans in time... while some of them chose to stay out of ignorance, the vast majority of those who stayed just didn't have the resources to leave. The population of New Orleans is predominantly black and poor. Many of its citizens don't own cars, couldn't get on other forms of transportation, and wouldn't have had anywhere else to stay. Not everybody could afford to hop in their land cruiser and drive to Florida or Texas to find a hotel room to stay in for the next three months.
What is really shameful about this whole episode is that it shows just how little work has really been done on "Homeland Security" in the FOUR YEARS since 9/11.
The prospect of a major hurricane destroying New Orleans was a high probability disaster... one I discussed in great detail three years ago at a business conference with a friend from Baton Rouge! It was considered the third most likely disaster that the US might have to face. Yet nothing was done to prepare for the probability that we might have to face this situation.
If the administration was serious about "Homeland Security" and dealing with potential national disasters, it had FOUR YEARS to put together an improved emergency response. Yet it's clear from this disaster that there was no planning done in the interim and we've been caught completely flat-footed.
Inexcusable, but expected considering that this is the same crew that invaded Iraq without having an occupation plan in place.
A. Its the SuperDOME, not Superbowl. (But it is also the home of the Sugarbowl once a year).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelian
B. What exactly does terrorism have to do with a hurricane? You think al Qaeda made it?
How exactly is this administration at fault for not perfecting an emergency plan for a city that has been populated for at least 250 years? Shouldn't that be up to the city and the state? Blaming Bush for not having a program set up to evacuate a city (even if it is #3 most likely disaster [who the heck came up with THAT list?]) is asinine. The city was living on borrowed time, by looking at the landscape everyone knew that.
Actually... having a Federal plan in place for emergencies would be nice. I demand one be put into place to evacuate me from my house in case of a tornado! Or if my roomate rips off a big one...
C. Expecting the federal government to solve all your problems is one way to approach life. If you really want to enjoy that kind of life... I know of 4 countries right off the top of my head that can help you out with that.
FOUR YEARS. Just wanted to add one more for effect.
Azi
Yes and I know how. It was with the help of the French as usual. You have all heard of La Machine?Quote:
What exactly does terrorism have to do with a hurricane? You think al Qaeda made it?
http://i6.ebayimg.com/04/i/04/d5/1e/42_2.JPG
Well they sold one to AQ and they modified it into the Ah-lah Machine and use it to whip up hurricanes. Im trying to find a picture of it also.
With the social layer dissolved, the people regresses back to survival mode.Quote:
When The Levee Breaks - Memphis Minnie
If it keeps on rainin', levee's
goin' to break
If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break
And the water gonna come in, have no place to stay
Well all last night I sat on the levee and moan
Well all last night I sat on the levee and moan
Thinkin' 'bout my baby and my happy home
If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break
If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break
And all these people have no place to stay
Now look here mama what am I to do
Now look here mama what am I to do
I ain't got nobody to tell my troubles to
I works on the levee mama both night and day
I works on the levee mama both night and day
I ain't got nobody, keep the water away
Oh cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do no good
Oh cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do no good
When the levee breaks, mama, you got to lose
I works on the levee, mama both night and day
I works on the levee, mama both night and day
I works so hard, to keep the water away
I had a woman, she wouldn't do for me
I had a woman, she wouldn't do for me
I'm goin' back to my used to be
I's a mean old levee, cause me to weep and moan
I's a mean old levee, cause me to weep and moan
Gonna leave my baby, and my happy home
Quote:
Outside a looted Rite-Aid drugstore, some people were anxious to show they needed what they were taking. A gray-haired man who would not give his name pulled up his T-shirt to show a surgery scar and explained that he needs pads for incontinence.
"I'm a Christian. I feel bad going in there," he said.
Quote:
Donald Dudley, a 55-year-old New Orleans seafood merchant, complained that when he and other hungry refugees broke into the kitchen of the convention center and tried to prepare food, the National Guard chased them away.
"They pulled guns and told us we had to leave that kitchen or they would blow our damn brains out," he said. "We don't want their help. Give us some vehicles and we'll get ourselves out of here!"
Azi-Quote:
Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
If you believe that then you haven't been paying attention to the thread. Nobody, and I mean nobody, could expect to pull themselves up by the bootstraps if hit this hard. Trying to lay this on the city? Want to do the same for Biloxi, or Gulfport? Or Bay St. Louis or any other areas that were smashed? They have no gas or electric or phone or home and often no vehicle, but at least they are not trapped in rising sewage levels. They are mad as well. Fortunately for them most are not now flooded, so by comparison they have it "better"--except that many of them also are upset by having no chance of rescue/evacuation at the moment, little food, and little water.
While I'm not ready to assign political blame I am very concerned about the complete inadequacy this shows for dealing with a serious metropolitan crisis anywhere in the country. Yes, after four years of focus on homeland security I do expect the system to perform much better under trial by fire, especially when it has warning. Our national response is inadequate. Those of us wanting to help are frustrated, as are the victims. Looking at it, I can't see much evidence that the 4 years since 9/11 better prepared us for this emergency response.
If you look back at other hurricanes you will find 10's of thousands of guardsmen called up as well, as well as FEMA efforts, etc. They merely have not had as much continuing and immediate crisis as this one.
Try reading the National Response Plan.
http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlib...RPbaseplan.pdf
And then read some of the pre-2001 FEMA documents - you will see a similiar pattern in both. The Federal response is always after the fact - its the city and state that must prepare and plan for the welfare of thier citizens in a crisis.
The system is broke and has been broke for many years - not a single adminstration has ever done more then lip service. Does it surprise that new Department of Homeland Security failed to provide fast immediate response to the diaster - not at all - the system is designed in such a way by layers of beurarcy (SP) to take many hours to make a plan - and then the preparation and organizing phase takes time also.
Its always been a terrible slow process - mobilizing FEMA - that is why it clearly states in the National Response Plan and in almost every document I have personally seen - that the initial response is always the responsiblity of the local authority - followed by the state resources The Federal portion is to provide assistance and support once all local and state resources have been identified and task - and the Federal system then kicks in to provide those resources the state needs.
That was the pre-2001 FEMA plan - and in my initial reading of the Homeland Security NRP - the same thing is stated.
Every other diaster that has hit the United States in the last 20 years - has never prepared the system nor placed such a strain on the response plan as this event.
There is no off the shelf plan that states if A happens then do B.
I understand. Consider all cups crushed. :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
Redleg,
Yes this has been one of my concerns about the Homeland Security push. Rather than really doing things better, we are just changing the names of the same old thing.
It looks to me like the whole concept is upside down for "the big ones." The reactive mode just isn't going to work for them. Surely we can do this better, we've got the resources, we have people with the skills.
I'm used to operating plant response plans, all our written docs for handling various identified emergencies in the plants. They worked well since we had the steps spelled out and were all pulling the same way. We could and did improvise as needed, but the framework was there. Of course...they didn't help much back in the older days (before me) when plants actually blew up and levelled building. Similar thing here. The locals can do well with the emergencies up to a point, but past initial evacuation you must assume their self help capacity will be nearly destroyed or seriously compromised.
The worst minor emergency experiences I've had were in areas like Engineering corporate offices when we had gas leaks, brownouts, or other events. Why? They had no plan, so all the chiefs stood there not knowing what to do. Meanwhile, those of us with initiative would start shutting systems down, check out other systems, kill the HVAC, and start giving instructions to those with the "deer caught in the headlights" look. It was amusing once in a new building when we lost power, the backup generator didn't kick on and we had to evacuate from the 7th floor through a pitch black winding stairwell that none of us had ever been on. No flashlights--fortunately, we had laptops. :thumbsup:
That is true - most likely it comes from the fact that Homeland Security is really not a new department - but the joining together of a bunch of other beuraracy under one umbrella to make a worse beuraracy. Time to scrape it and rebuild the department from scratch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
I agree - we just got to get congress to change the laws that leave the military out of the active planning process for crisis involving the civil areas.Quote:
It looks to me like the whole concept is upside down for "the big ones." The reactive mode just isn't going to work for them. Surely we can do this better, we've got the resources, we have people with the skills.
Now I don't want the military being in charge of civil operations - but if the Mayor of New Orleans could of talked directly to the commander of Ft. Polk to arrange for military transport of citizens - I wonder if more people could have been evacuated.
Well I was involved in three Military support of civil affairs. Two forest fires and the San Antonio floods. The forest fire ones actually went real well - the agency that handles forest fires - has an excellent interface with the military (A possible model to expound and expand on maybe?) All they need from the Federal Government is a Federal diaster area declared and it starts right away - direct liason between the post tasked to help and the forest agency.Quote:
I'm used to operating plant response plans, all our written docs for handling various identified emergencies in the plants. They worked well since we had the steps spelled out and were all pulling the same way. We could and did improvise as needed, but the framework was there. Of course...they didn't help much back in the older days (before me) when plants actually blew up and levelled building. Similar thing here. The locals can do well with the emergencies up to a point, but past initial evacuation you must assume their self help capacity will be nearly destroyed or seriously compromised.
The worst minor emergency experiences I've had were in areas like Engineering corporate offices when we had gas leaks, brownouts, or other events. Why? They had no plan, so all the chiefs stood there not knowing what to do. Meanwhile, those of us with initiative would start shutting systems down, check out other systems, kill the HVAC, and start giving instructions to those with the "deer caught in the headlights" look. It was amusing once in a new building when we lost power, the backup generator didn't kick on and we had to evacuate from the 7th floor through a pitch black winding stairwell that none of us had ever been on. No flashlights--fortunately, we had laptops. :thumbsup:
The San Antonio Floods of 1998-99 timeframe shows on a small scale both the success of military involvment in helping solve the crisis - and the failure of FEMA to provide a rapid response.
While researching another topic in the forum - I discovered I have made an error in one of my assumptions - that the state of Lousiana had the enhanced Seperate Infantry Brigade still in the state available for the governor to use as the immediate response for a state emergancy - this was incorrect on my part.
It seems that I have lost track of which units are deployed - it seems that the 256th Infantry Brigade is currently in Iraq. This takes about half of the available manpower for the state of Lousiana to respond to state emergancies.
Another item that should of been addressed by the homeland security department - and in this I find more fault with the way the Federal system is managed - if the Federal Government is taking resources from the state - it must provide contigencies to supplement the state in case of emergencies such as this.
So while the City government in my view still failed terriblily - the state government's ability to respond has been hampered by Federal Government with no planning done to provide the state with possible resources to prepare for such an emergancy. While the state still had the state police and several smaller guard units - the available immediate manpower of the state to respond to an emergency of this significance was cut in my estimate by at least 25% to maybe even 50%. More importantly several key resources were unavailable such as military trucks.
This makes it even more important to restructure how the Military is allowed to function during civil emergancies and diasters.
You weren't entirely wrong, Redleg. I don't think all of the 256th has been deployed yet. They were being sent in staggered sections, by company I believe.
Only about 3000 Louisiana Guard are in Iraq. The governor supposedly had 3500 Guard ready to deploy to New Orleans and another 3000 on standby. So that means, just using those numbers, that only about 1/3 of the state's ready Guard were deployed to Iraq. The feds have made an official promise that no state will have more than 1/2 of its Guard forces sent to Iraq, and the numbers are actually closer to less than 1/3 in most states being sent to Iraq.
One of the glaring things that struck me yesterday, was when the head of FEMA, whose name escapes me at the moment, was asked pointedly by a reporter about the mayhem and lawlessness and how that would affect FEMAs efforts, he said that FEMA was not involved in law enforcement. As if it was just that simple. It speaks to a very large gap in command and control. FEMA can't just begin relief operations without protection. So who is in charge? Serious lack of coordination there.
Well it seems that my base assumption is still on track mostly then. The governor still needs to get fired by the citizens of Louisana during the next election process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenlic
Yes indeed - that is exactly how it was in 1999 - FEMA does not take charge of anything - it only attempts to provide resources and coordination for the state or city agency handling the emergancy. We need to push the government to change this procedure - and when diaster hits to the point that the city or state can not handle it - the Federal Government steps in with the military and all the resources at its disposal. I am getting more and more convinced that the Posse Comitias law must be revoked - and a new one legislated so that in certain condtions the military has the authority to act under the direction of a civil authority.Quote:
One of the glaring things that struck me yesterday, was when the head of FEMA, whose name escapes me at the moment, was asked pointedly by a reporter about the mayhem and lawlessness and how that would affect FEMAs efforts, he said that FEMA was not involved in law enforcement. As if it was just that simple. It speaks to a very large gap in command and control. FEMA can't just begin relief operations without protection. So who is in charge? Serious lack of coordination there.
Does anyone have an idea how much people there still is in New Orleans?Why arent the people forced to evacuote?
I believe that is part of the issue and the problem - no one knows for sure. And the city was evacuted - but it seems that city government ordered the evacuation but relied on individual citizens to evacuate themselves. Or that is my impression of how the events have gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by kagemusha
And is I believe the scope of why this discussion was started
The evacuation was ordered. Apparently the roads were blocked, many people couldn't get to safety and decided to stay, go to the Dome, squat in hotels, whatever. Of course some never intended to leave in the first place - shop owners, gangs, elderly -- and those will be hard to dislodge in the present mayhem.Quote:
Originally Posted by kagemusha
So does anyone have a clue for how long it takes to pump the water out of the city?Because if people are confined in buildings without supplies it will turn out to be a jungle.I think that the marshall law was a good step but if they wont evacuote the rest of the population you are going to face anarchy there sometime soon.