I´m glad to inform you that the election was a disaster for the NPD ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
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I´m glad to inform you that the election was a disaster for the NPD ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
Well, the aboriginals aren't having such a great time with the Bush administration right now...Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis IV the Fat
Damn. I bet you didn’t even flinch while writing this down. ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
I believe all of the SPD voters have deserved Schroeder. If I were on Merkel’s place, I would have undermined that pathetic cheap-shot play of Schroeders in Bundestag and would have voted in favor of the Genosse-der-Bosse. After two or three years more of his rule, the Germans would welcome anyone else for their kanzler. Or a king or a dictator, for that matter. Putin would appear like Gandhi to them.
I’m only sorry for all those Germans that had to endure the witty weasel over the last seven years and had nothing to do with him coming into office, by either voting for others or not voting at all.
Well, Merkel obviously was certain to win the election now. Maybe the Germans would prefer Putin over Schröder, but it seems, not Merkel ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by voigtkampf
Elect an idiot and you must live with him. It just saddens me that Germany must elect such an idiot.Quote:
Originally Posted by voigtkampf
You guys call Bush stupid, at least we don't pay for kids to go to collage until their 31 ~:cheers:
And Putin's the man, don't insult Putin. He's like, tough. Somthing most world leaders aren't. That guys got nuts of steel to do some of the things he's done. ~D
Hence, I presume, Merkel’s ineloquence absolves Schroeder from his own?Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
I, for one, do not support that position, because excrement tastes like excrement no matter whose it is. Then again, IMDHO. ~D
I´m absolving nothing. But it seems that Merkel isn´t such a great politician as you after all. And maybe the Germans have other ressentiments against her than her ineloquence.Quote:
Originally Posted by voigtkampf
I just heard, though, that she was re-elected as chair(wo)man for her party, with 98% voting for her to continue. Seems fresh winds are blowing her sails. can she use it for anything, though?
Yes, the can keep it a precious memory should her party dump her in a not so far future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjakihata
The complexity of multi party democracies. No one knows really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
The two most likely situations:
1. Schröeder concedes and hands the scene to Merkel
2. A big coalition is formed
at least, that's what the analysists are saying in denmark
However, there are alternatives. If there´s a great coalition and no one wants to step back from their claim to power, one of these options could be applied:
First option: double chancellor.
Both Merkel and Schröder could rule as chancellor. If necessary, they could marry. Then the President would say "Hereby I declare you Mister and Misses Chancellor".
Second option: self-made chancellor.
If that seems to silly to the President he could nominate himself for Chancellor. If elected that would make for a slimmer state. Alternativly he could nominate the supreme court. After all, most laws must be decided by them anyway. Maybe he could even nominate the Constitution itself, but I guess it couldn´t swear the oath.
Third and best option: neutral chancellor.
A neutral politician could be chancellor. Does he need to be Member of Parliament? SPD and Union could agree on an independet person without party affiliation. Of course, the problem would be to find someone both can agree on. It needs to be someone who has authority and respect in all Germany and can lead. There´s only someone who fulfills that:
Franz Beckenbauer
Of course, he wouldn´t bear the title chancellor. He would be Kaiser, ruler of a great coalition for life!!
I agree, Merkel will never be as good as politician as me. ~D Or you, for that matter. ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
I do not consider Merkel to be a person of either ability or format, and I feel exactly the same about Schroeder. The latter, however, has been gifted with demagogical skills, opportunistic nature that enables him to pull any move that will grant him another little piece of power. He is an eel in motion, slippery at all times, without any knowledge of how to run Germany (a feature he shares with the largest part of SPD as well as the Greenies) but with every knowledge how to suck up at workers class one day and at the business bosses the very next day, telling them all what they want to hear and fulfilling his promises nowhere.
Poor Merkel. She is neither beautiful, nor able to any degree worth mentioning, she is a childless protestant woman that lived in the shadows of greater politicians for a long time without any oratory skills whatsoever. But unlike that charade of a kanzler, she has never displayed that hypocrisy he seems to be having in unlimited supply.
Right! The Bomber would be foreign minister, Katsche Schwarzenbeck would be responsible for defense and Uli Höneß would do economics. ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
No doubt, Schröder is a powermonger and Merkel isn´t. But I think the conservatives should accept that they lost because the German voter didn´t want Union/FDP to rule the land. As it seems, the German voter didn´t want anyone to rule the land ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by voigtkampf
And Toni Schumacher can become ambassador to France. ~;)
And Schröder may be a ruthless, arse-kissing powermongerer indeed, but he get's my vote for chancellor. Twice he's beaten (well, I would consider this last election a victory for the SPD) the CDU/CSU now coming from way behind in the polls. He has got what it takes to lead. He's a natural born winner.
Unlike Merkel. She got totally pöwnd by him in the last debate.
The reasons for it are much simpler. The Union lost because of the two reasons; one, Schroeder played his charade because he knew he was going down, and this was a pure act of damage control, and two, Merkel is no format to challenge even the (self)torpedoed kanzler Gerd. Even having given up the leadership of his party, that man still clings to whatever power he can get like a leech.Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
If you analyze the progress the Union has been making in the last few years objectively, you would be compelled to admit that SPD has been losing in the parts of Germany where they have had the undisputed rule for decades. Hence, the only logical conclusion is the one as stated above. This is not the failure of the Union, but of Merkel. And as for Schroeder… The amount of unquestionable, blind, non-distinguishing devotion required in someone to still support Gerd is something I simply cannot comprehend.
Not ruthless. Try slimy. Try hypocritical. Arse-kissing is suitable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis IV the Fat
As the red numbers in Germany’s state accounting continue soaring upward, just like the unemployment numbers are hitting the record high ever since the end of the WW2, and the most powerful economy in Europe is slipping to a second-rate middle-Europe factor, you should repeat that mantra to yourself over and over. And draw satisfaction that there was no suitable opponent to knock out that clown with the talent for driving Germany even deeper into state of bankruptcy. Other than being French, I don’t know how a reasonable person can find this course of action satisfactory. ~DQuote:
He has got what it takes to lead. He's a natural born winner.
If you folks acquire any more political parties, you'll start resembling the Knesset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan the Berserker
Seamus
He does have two major difficulties to overcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by voigtkampf
Firstly, the unification. Taking over five bankrupt Länder was a bit costly.
And secondly, Germany's economy, like France, was based on industry. And like France, the rise of Asia has annihilated a large portion of it. The EU economies that are doing well at the moment are based on services. France and Germany are in trouble, especially with regards to employment. Both need to reform, yet both want to cling on to the social rights that were build to protect our workers. Hence the more than usual interest in what is happening on your side of the Rhine. If you can reform, we can follow your example. If you can't, then damnit, we're in trouble. We've got some elections down the road too in two years time.
And no, a Germany in recession is the last thing we need now. We need Germany to get back on it's feet again. You are supposed to be the engine of the EU-economy after all.
Or the Weimar Republic... :help:Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
My line was just a jest. Your response, though funny, hints at some concern that a situation alike to the chaos of the Weimar is possible -- implying that the results generated (NSDAP ascendency) are replicable. Is this a real concern?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan the Berserker
Seamus
Few things in politics are really simple. They only look simple. Schröder´s government wasn´t going down because of any mess-ups but because the necessary reforms it did weren´t liked by its clientel (and parts of the party). The losing of Länder was going on since their rise 1998 and it is quite normal. The ruling party usually declines in the Länder. If Union had won this election, you would have seen numbers of SPD voters going up pretty quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by voigtkampf
Alas, the conservaties show little motivation to address the real causes of our economical problems.Quote:
As the red numbers in Germany’s state accounting continue soaring upward, just like the unemployment numbers are hitting the record high ever since the end of the WW2, and the most powerful economy in Europe is slipping to a second-rate middle-Europe factor, you should repeat that mantra to yourself over and over. And draw satisfaction that there was no suitable opponent to knock out that clown with the talent for driving Germany even deeper into state of bankruptcy. Other than being French, I don’t know how a reasonable person can find this course of action satisfactory.
The Left is already seated with 57 Members in the Bundestag. 11 of these are not "Socialists", they belong to the Kommunistische Plattform which is the radical wing of the party which favors the Stalinism of the GDR's fashion. Simply note that Formula:Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
11 x https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...x-Kpf_logo.png + http://www.beitritt.de/grafik/Gysi.gif = SED Bundestagsfraktion
We do now have Enemies of the Constitution in the Parilament. This Situation has never been since the Days of the Weimar Republic.
The Thing is that Way, the "Grosse Koalition" between the SPD and CDU will f*ck up the People who normally vote for SPD so much the Power of the Left will grow even more. It will lead to a Situation, unlike in the Weimar Republic, where the SPD is forced to cooperate either with the radical Leftwing or with the conservatives.
Since Germany is no Isle and influenced by the Rest of the World, I assume the development of the CDU into Neo-Conservativism caused by Dubya's Foreignpolicy, domestic Anti-"The Left" politics and personal favor of Angela Merkel. The Socialdemocraths could never cooperate with Neo-Conservativism, because it was treason of our ideals.
However any cooperation of the moderate SPD with the radical Leftwing would instead radicalise the conservative part of the Population. (Remember that the Left formed the Gouverment of the GDR)
Having two extremely hostile camps in the Result:
Socialdemocraths / Socialists / Communists / Greens
Neo-Conservatives / Conservatives / Liberals
Small Weimar. Great Job. :embarassed:
Yes, Stefan. That's why you need a moderate, reasonable party - like, say, the FDP - in the heart of your political constellation. ~;)
It allows for coalitions to gravitate towards the centre, instead of to the outer extremes. You may not like the idea of the FDP having more power in this fashion than she should have based on her size - complete with all that shifting of allegiances and randsoming of far larger parties. But the alternative is more unattractive still.
Ah, yes, that dead horse… How long was that? Given chance, SPD will blame the reunification for all their misconduct for another two or three decades… They failed to once absolve the conservatives in the aftermath of reunification and say “ok, we are in a mess, but its only because the reunification process, its not the conservative’s fault”, but nothing seems to stop the left from making the reunification their main scapegoat ad infinituum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis IV the Fat
For more than just that reason, the European economies are coming through a significantly heavy phase. But Germany’s downfall, compared to other countries in percentage, is no where symmetrical. To put it down simple, Germany had to deal with both unfavorable conditions on the world market as well as exceptionally incapable domestic government.Quote:
And secondly, Germany's economy, like France, was based on industry. And like France, the rise of Asia has annihilated a large portion of it. The EU economies that are doing well at the moment are based on services.
Thank you for this valuable lesson.Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
If your opposition dislikes your program, fine, you are prepared for that. But when your “clientele” and “parts of the party” go openly against you and your plan… Then you are either a misunderstood genius or a plain charlatan.Quote:
Schröder´s government wasn´t going down because of any mess-ups but because the necessary reforms it did weren´t liked by its clientel (and parts of the party).
Absolutely true. You have, however, failed to mention that the loss of trust from the voters invested into SPD has been one of the epical proportions. When you lose support from that many voters that fast and also lose entire regions where you have regularly won elections for decades, then you should realize that something you do is terribly wrong.Quote:
The losing of Länder was going on since their rise 1998 and it is quite normal. The ruling party usually declines in the Länder. If Union had won this election, you would have seen numbers of SPD voters going up pretty quick.
Unless you are a misunderstood genius the keeps pursuing his course, or a plain, stupid charlatan.
If Schröder is either than Merkel must be that too. After all that program in question was Hartz IV. Which was agreed upon by the union. The problem was that unfortunately, big parts of the left reject necessary reforms. You are in fact blaming Schröder for an unpopulistic policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by voigtkampf
It is strange that you chastise him so much for the economy when in fact the economical policy of the SPD and that of the Union differ only in nuances.
How are epical proportions defined?Quote:
Absolutely true. You have, however, failed to mention that the loss of trust from the voters invested into SPD has been one of the epical proportions. When you lose support from that many voters that fast and also lose entire regions where you have regularly won elections for decades, then you should realize that something you do is terribly wrong.
1990 the SPD was leading faction in 8 of 16 Länder.
1998 11 of 16.
1999 10/16.
2000 9/16.
2001 9/16.
2002 8/16.
2003 7/16.
2004 7/16.
2005 5/16.
I recognize a sort of pendulum in that.
The only thing drastic I can see is that they lost two Länder in one year: Schleswig-Holstein (by the voting of 1 person!!) and Nordrhein-Westfalen. This is after all what brought Schröder to call for re-elections.
It is true that the SPD had recently in some Länder very low results. These voters went mostly over to PDS. Would it be corrcet then, by your reasoning, that something the PDS did was terribly right?
Sorry, reunification indeed. Just sloppyness on my part, no political statement intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by voigtkampf
But a beating a dead horse? I don't think so. I'd rather call it one of the most pressing problems of Germany.
Der Spiegel, september 2005 And the above doesn't even adress the social problems and alienation of a large part of the East.Quote:
According to the German Institute for Economic Research (DIW), economic aid for the eastern part of Germany is increasingly dragging down the economic cycle in western Germany. Experts warn of a growing risk that "development in the new federal states" could trigger a "self-fuelling recession."
It was only last year that a team of government consultants, headed by former Hamburg Mayor Klaus von Dohnanyi and the former head of the East German state bank and subsequent managing director of Deutsche Bank's Berlin office, Edgar Most, presented Manfred Stolpe (SPD), the cabinet minister charged with eastern reconstruction, with a 29-page report ("Recommendations for a Change in Direction for Development East") outlining the full scope of the problem. Experts complain that:
only about 60 percent of eastern Germans capable of gainful employment are in fact employed. The average unemployment rate in the region tops 18 percent. According to the Institute for Economic Research in Halle, eastern Germany is short of about 2 million jobs;
migration away from the East continues unabated, especially among young people. According to the Dohnanyi report, "eastern Germany is threatened by a dramatic aging of the population and a dangerous loss of especially well-trained workers and its creative force";
the economy in the new German states has been growing more slowly than in the West for years. The catch-up process has stalled, leading to an ever-widening gap between East and West;
the East lacks medium-sized businesses when compared with the western standard. Companies in the East are generally too small and short on capital;
the costs of reunification consume four percent of the gross domestic product annually. But because economic growth falls short of this figure, aid to the East is eroding the West's economic base;
billions in aid and subsidization policies are no longer effective. Without a "change in course," according to the report, the "need for West-East transfers of funds can even be expected to increase in the future."
In figures:
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,515451,00.gif
Doesn't that mean that Eastern Germany has seen a econ growth rate BELOW the level of inflation for a decade? I can't think of a U.S. region that has been hammered that bad for that long since the 30's. Talk about your classic "ripe for political turmoil" scenario....
Seamus
The lates news is that, should it come to a third voting for chancellor, the LINKE may vote for Schröder. This could mean that, if no consensus is found between Union and SPD, Schröder might have a better chance to be elected than Merkel.
On the other hand, Schröder seems less adament in his claim for the office now.