Belgae: Kelts, Germans or something else?

Well the thing about these idiots is that they claim that and are convinced that, there was at one time some sort of pan-celtic civilization stretching across all of ancient Europe and that this culture was pieced together by some sort of universal "goddess" religion shared by all. If my facts don't fail me, it was invented in the late 1800s by some Soi-dissant male feminist who's name escapes me at the moment. Then re-invented in the 70s by a bunch of angry feminists.

Of course, there is the fact that their supposed "Celtic spell rituals" are more Egyptian and Germanic then anything else and not even remotely Celtic in origin that is also annoying.

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Of course, there is the fact that their supposed "Celtic spell rituals" are more Egyptian and Germanic then anything else and not even remotely Celtic in origin that is also annoying.

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Germanic ?!
The main germanic deities where wodan (odin), Ziu (tyr) and donar (thor).
Wodan, Ziu and Donar are all male deities...

I know that, I'm talking about their supposed "Celtic spell rituals" they use not the gods, if I'm not mistaken alot of their supposed "Celtic magic" is in fact Germanic in origin, I know a large portion of its Egyptian as well.

Basically anything but Celtic.


Edit-Tyr/Tiwaz/Ziu whatever you want to call him, kicks major ass.

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Originally Posted by Zero1

Well the thing about these idiots is that they claim that and are convinced that, there was at one time some sort of pan-celtic civilization stretching across all of ancient Europe and that this culture was pieced together by some sort of universal "goddess" religion shared by all. If my facts don't fail me, it was invented in the late 1800s by some Soi-dissant male feminist who's name escapes me at the moment. Then re-invented in the 70s by a bunch of angry feminists.

Of course, there is the fact that their supposed "Celtic spell rituals" are more Egyptian and Germanic then anything else and not even remotely Celtic in origin that is also annoying.

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Yup, the mother-goddess theory..only a millenia too late

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Originally Posted by Ranika

For example, in ancient Gaelic religion, the main deity was Cromm Cruach (Dagda),

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Whoa whoa whoa. Crom Cruach IS the Dagda?

Ranika, you gotta clear this up for me. I'm losing sleep.

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Originally Posted by Ranika

The funny/irritating thing about Celtic 'goddesses' is that they were, mostly, not overly central to Celtic religion, with the exception of a few very popular ones, specifically Epona, for her fertility and horse attributes.

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Epona's awesome. Deffinetly the coolest animal in a video game, ever.

Link!
He come to town
Come to SHAVE!
The princess Zelda
Gannon took her away
And now the children don't play
But they will, when Link save the day
HALLELUJIAH

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Originally Posted by NeonGod

Whoa whoa whoa. Crom Cruach IS the Dagda?

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Sorry I missed this. Yes. Dagda is only a title, after all. Crom Cruach is 'the good god', because he is skilled in all things; he's a skilled warrior, poet, singer, musician, dancer, builder, smith, athlete, commander, and orator. He's also, in the moral sense, good. Obeys laws, defends his people, his family, and home, pays debts should they arise and is hospitable and dutiful to those around and near him. As the only god who is truly good at everything, he is the good god (Dagda). His only possible competition for that name would be Lugh (though Lugh has failings), but Lugh (and if one wishes to be technical, all other 'gods' in Irish lore) is more of a demigod/deified hero (only the Dagda is beyond decay, death, and time completely; all other gods in the physical world are subject to harm and age; even the Dagda's 'parents' are more or less just personified concepts of creation).

I knew that once I'd shone the Celt-symbol, you'd show up.

Thanks for clearing that up. How long has it been since it's been determined that these two figures are one and the same?

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Originally Posted by NeonGod

I knew that once I'd shone the Celt-symbol, you'd show up.

Thanks for clearing that up. How long has it been since it's been determined that these two figures are one and the same?

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Quite some time, actually; however, arguments have persisted for a long time that they're seperate. The main problem with conclusive proofs that the two are the same is that too much still needs translated (and much of the earlier proofs are actually in a mix of Vulgar Latin and old and middle Irish, recounting Irish myth; even earlier are in early Irish and late Goidilic {before the seperate forms of the languages really come about}, making them troublesome for even well educated scholars). Also, there is the nature of Irish mythical figures getting 'dual portrayal'; a personified 'earthly' figure (using the actual name Crom Cruach in this case), and the more ethereal, spiritual figure (that being his title of 'Dagda', since it exemplifies his spiritual nature as a good deity).

Vulgar Latin? In Irish texts? I assume that this after Christianity had come to the Isle?

Of course; there aren't Irish texts (with the vague exception of 'ogham', if one wants to be so liberal as to call that 'texts') before Christianity. However, the Irish didn't write in Latin. However, Irish books were exported all over Europe (one should bare in mind, until about 850 AD, Ireland produced substantially more books, both copies and original texts, than any region in Europe except the east Roman Empire), and versions of them sometimes appear written in Latin or Vulgar Latin in western Europe (specifically in Britain, in Wales).

Ah, much more clear. I met an elderly gentleman (a professor of modern languages) the other day; he came into my workplace. He bantered on about things Gaelic and Gallic (Gahlic?), since he insisted on referring to Scots Gaelic as such, keeping "Gaelic" as a term reserved for Irish. He also pronounced "Celtic" SEL-tik. I did a lot of cringing throughout our debate.

More to the point, he made references to an Irish word that shares an etymology with the Latin word from which the English "cell" draws its meaning; it was simply a small chamber. I believe he said it pronounced "Kella". He then went on to explain that Italian, Spanish, French and other romance language use a different form of the word, since the pronunciation of the letter "c" was different. This, he said, was a logical progression from the change in Latin pronunciation, which shifted towards "sella" throughout time. The Irish word, however, retained its "hard c" sound, suggesting (although he was quite adamant on it) that the word had arrived in Hibernia long before a time that would make sense.

I thought he was just talking out of his ass, but I thought to ask you. Is there such a word (if you recall), and do you know much of its etymology?

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Originally Posted by NeonGod

Ah, much more clear. I met an elderly gentleman (a professor of modern languages) the other day; he came into my workplace. He bantered on about things Gaelic and Gallic (Gahlic?), since he insisted on referring to Scots Gaelic as such, keeping "Gaelic" as a term reserved for Irish. He also pronounced "Celtic" SEL-tik. I did a lot of cringing throughout our debate.

More to the point, he made references to an Irish word that shares an etymology with the Latin word from which the English "cell" draws its meaning; it was simply a small chamber. I believe he said it pronounced "Kella". He then went on to explain that Italian, Spanish, French and other romance language use a different form of the word, since the pronunciation of the letter "c" was different. This, he said, was a logical progression from the change in Latin pronunciation, which shifted towards "sella" throughout time. The Irish word, however, retained its "hard c" sound, suggesting (although he was quite adamant on it) that the word had arrived in Hibernia long before a time that would make sense.

I thought he was just talking out of his ass, but I thought to ask you. Is there such a word (if you recall), and do you know much of its etymology?

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Gallic is the language of Gaul (as in, Gaulish); it's not that closely related to the Gaelic languages (which are descended from the Goidilic-Galaecian language more heavily, with Gallic and Brythonic loan words in its earlier forms, and in modern forms has much English loaned into it).

Depends on dialect (this 'cell' thing); in my own dialect, the closest word would probably be 'kiraesún', but I think is more like 'cill' or 'kill'. It should be noted, in most Celtic languages, 'c' is always pronounced as a K except in special circumstances (though modern versions sometimes lax this rule, hence the 'most'). Ergo, in early versions of Irish, regardless of where or when the word arrived, if it was spelled with a 'c', it would invariably be pronounced as a 'k'. There simply wasn't the saturation of foreign languages necessary to introduce major language shifts (compared to the saturation of English, which has changed pronunciation and similar rules in varying amounts depending on the region).

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Originally Posted by Ranika

Gallic is the language of Gaul (as in, Gaulish); it's not that closely related to the Gaelic languages (which are descended from the Goidilic-Galaecian language more heavily, with Gallic and Brythonic loan words in its earlier forms, and in modern forms has much English loaned into it).

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I know...I became irritated when he insisted on using it. It's closer to the Scots Gaelic pronunciation of the term, which is, I assume, why he used it.

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Originally Posted by Ranika

Depends on dialect (this 'cell' thing); in my own dialect, the closest word would probably be 'kiraesún', but I think is more like 'cill' or 'kill'. It should be noted, in most Celtic languages, 'c' is always pronounced as a K except in special circumstances (though modern versions sometimes lax this rule, hence the 'most'). Ergo, in early versions of Irish, regardless of where or when the word arrived, if it was spelled with a 'c', it would invariably be pronounced as a 'k'. There simply wasn't the saturation of foreign languages necessary to introduce major language shifts (compared to the saturation of English, which has changed pronunciation and similar rules in varying amounts depending on the region).

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"Kiraesùn" sounds a little off..I'll look into it, I guess.

I was referring more to the idea that a non-vulgar Latin word could have been imported wholesale into Irish.

By the way, is there a journal I could subscribe to keep me up-to-date?

you guys know too much...your the type of guy that eliminates all bullshit in thsi world..

hollywood's deathsquad might be on it's way as we speak...

you guys know too much...your the type of guy that eliminates all bullshit in thsi world..

hollywood's deathsquad might be on it's way as we speak...

Don't worry, the History Channel and National Geographic relief forces have intercepted them:charge: :charge:

all my years of hollywood-education seem so futile...

Neon: relax.

Every proffessor I've known in Celtic language departments pronounces Gaelic like Gallic when referring to Scottish Gaelic but pronounces it like gay-lic when referring to Irish.

Don't worry, he probably knew what he was talking about and was not referring to Gallic (as in the language(s) of the Gauls).

Cast aside the cringe.

~D

Ranika: surely the Irish did write things in Latin as well as Irish? yes, no?

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Originally Posted by Taffy_is_a_Taff

Every proffessor I've known in Celtic language departments pronounces Gaelic like Gallic when referring to Scottish Gaelic but pronounces it like gay-lic when referring to Irish.

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But why?

I don't know, they just do.

The only Gaelic I know is from the page so I don't know if Gàidhlig is pronounced closer to Gallic and Gaeilge is pronounced closer to gay-lic.
If this is the case then I think we can understand where they are coming from.

If not then I haven't a clue, maybe just for easy differentiation.

I thought it was Gaidhlig in Scotland?

Gàidhlig is the Scottish Gaelic word for Gaelic.

There's no accent, actually.

Gaidhlic is pronounced, in Scots Gaelic, closer to the word "Gallic", but it would ignore that subtleties and accents of the language if one was to say "Gallic" and refer to it. Besides, we don't say in English that a man was speaking Deutsch or Polski; we say that he was speaking German or Polish.

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Originally Posted by Taffy_is_a_Taff

Ranika: surely the Irish did write things in Latin as well as Irish? yes, no?

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Sometimes, but rarely. This is largely excused in the dark ages by two things; one, Patrick's 'Confessions' includes a note that his Latin is atrocious, and he never required Irish ordinates (priests, nuns, monks, and others he ordained) to learn it. As such, it was never part of the main liturgical language of the Irish until the middle ages, when Ireland was brought in closer union with Rome. That's the second excuse; Ireland was isolated, linguistically, from much of the world. Irish correspondances with the papacy went through Britain (much of which was reconverted to Christianity by Gaelic-speaking missionaries, and used both Gaelic and Latin in religious writing); not directly from Ireland to Rome (in fact, even when crusades were preached in Ireland, the suggestion to preach them came from an English bishop, not the Pope, though the Pope did agree that crusades should be preached there). The last time the Papacy had ever contacted Ireland until the high middle ages was during the missions of St. Palladius in Ireland, leaving several hundred years of dead space liturigically. In that time, Latin became the standard language of the church of Rome (before it was a combination of Greek, Latin, and various other languages), so Latin wasn't really 'required' when the Irish became Christians, and when official contacts with Rome were established, the Irish had long since been using Gaelic as the main language of religious service (this actually continued well into the renaissance, but religious writings began to be done in Latin, rather than Irish). The dark age Irish Christians actually wrote more in Greek, than Latin, because one of the main consumers of Irish books of poetry and stories (as well as philosophy, perhaps because Irish philosophy was, by this point, combinations of ancient Celtic personal belief mixed with Greek philosophies like stoicism) was the east Roman Empire, and they mainly filtered around Greece.

Ranika: cheers.

NeonGod: there you go, it makes perfect sense if the Scots is closer to "Gallic" in pronunciation.I don't know about the accent thing, I just copied and pasted from something else.

If you really oject to the use of Gaelic for Scottish Gaelic then why not start a campaign to have people refer to it as Erse again? ~D

I suppose it depends if you consider it to be essentially the same language or not. If you personally believe it is the same language then I can see why it may grate but if you consider it one of three seperate yet very similar languages then it should be no big deal, you're not bothered about Manx Gaelic generally being called Manx? No? good. The thing is that the three Gaelics are generally viewed as three different but very close languages so you'd have to alter the mindset of a LOT of people.

It's like with Welsh stuff being referred to as Cymric, it's not exactly Cymraeg but it's a lot better than "Welsh".

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Originally Posted by Taffy_is_a_Taff

If you really oject to the use of Gaelic for Scottish Gaelic then why not start a campaign to have people refer to it as Erse again? ~D

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I don't. I object to it being called "Gallic". It makes no bloody sense.

ok, it's spelt Gaelic for both languages when referred to in English.

There is a difference in pronunciation.

There is a reason for this difference.

The word Gaelic does not have to be pronounced GayLick.
It can also be pronounced Galic. This does not make it one and the same as Gallic, just like bear and bare or pier and peer do not mean the same things. Admittedly it may be easier if they were spelt differently but they aren't so you're going to have to live with it until your frustration wears off.