I have taken the piss for long enough ~D
Example of Brave and Honourable :balloon2:
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I have taken the piss for long enough ~D
Example of Brave and Honourable :balloon2:
I do not think it is possible to generalize to each and every soldier, but as long as they knew they were fighting for a racist and criminal regime, which was the case, and by using democratic standards, then no, there was no honour in fighting in the Nazis army.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Hitler’s army slaughtered Europe during six years, mainly eastern Europe so yes I think more of them had the possibility to reveal their potential aggressiveness – if this is what you mean by heroism.Quote:
Were the German soldiers more heroic then the Allies? How? Consider that they fought both for the Nazis and the Losing side.
The Taliban regime promoted a medieval theocracy, based upon religious written law, that replaced a bloody chaos in Afghanistan – something positive if you compare it to what was the warlord’s Afghanistan before them. They have their own übermensh - all male sunis- half the humanity being inferior – women – the rest –heretics – remaining to be killed or converted. I suppose this lets the possibility of one half of humanity – males – to be superior in the brain of a very positive Taliban dreamer.Quote:
Does that make Germans in WWII the modern equivalent to the Taliban and the Nazis AQ?
The nazi regime promoted force above law, mythology over reason and pre-feudalism traditions to replace democracy. Their übermench were a few hundred millions at the very best, all the rest being definitively inferior.
As talibans were claiming fighting for their country just like germans did so, I think the germans were far worse than the afghans.
Not necessary but it is clear that the value of such a toy is greatly reduced by this proportion.Quote:
Do you think that giving out 3 million Iron Crosses reduces to them to the value of eye candy? Considering that means one out of six WWII Germans who fought for the Nazi warmachine had an Iron Cross.
Comparing their respective values does not seem reasonable, but as I said the Nazis killed during six years on a very large scale and the east front battles can explain such a number without totally reducing those crosses to a candy.Quote:
That 8000 Knight Crosses were handed out to Germans (and a couple of foreigners in WWII) that they are more valuable then Congressional Medals of Honour of which 400 were handed out in WWII?
True, of course, but although it is ridiculous to claim that german soldiers were unaware of the criminal nature of the nazi regime, It is not honest to claim they knew about the death camps and the different genocides perpetrated by their fellow übermensh.Quote:
While these Knights were fighting for the motherland they extended the defence of the Death Camps? So their actions extended the war and allowed more people to die in ovens and being made into soap and human lampshades... true or false?
LOL. Just looked into this thread. What is this nonsense about German war heroes and their silly medals? And why do some people have to return to their own vomit all the time?
A true war hero died today, Simon Wiesenthal, who deserved to be admired for the mere fact that he survived five death camps, and who went on to track down many nazi's after the war which was not devoid of risks to his person either. He was Austrian, sure. You want Germans who fought for their nation? Think of the Prussian officers against Hitler, Willy Brandt, Max Schmeling, Lilli Marlene, the list is huge. They represented their nation of Dichter und Denker, not the scum that fought on the Eastern front. Get real. ~;)
YIHAA...not all soldiers fought for their beliefs some just sought adventure...
Hamas doesn't have a country. They are more like the German SA's (stormtroopers) same as the Taliban. Hamas and the Taliban are/were revolutionary armies. The Taliban were one faction in a civil war. Granted they were winning, they have more in common with say the red army in Russia in 1919 or the union army in the ACW. Hamas is a rebel/revolutionary army fighting for a nation that doesn't really exist yet. They have more in common with the IRA or the US continental army.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
The Japanese were like the Germans doing what there devine all knowing emperor commanded them to do. And the Mongol's don't count at all, you shouldn't even have brought them up.
Which is the single most stupid thing that the allies did after the war. Georing was right about Nuermburg it was a kangaroo court of the victors to punish the vanquised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
So Nazi leaders should not have been tried and if found guilty punished for their murdering of millions of Jews and others in the concentration camps?Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
Is this what you are trying to say?
Anything coming out of Georing's fat mouth should be taken with a grain of salt considering the role he had to play in WW2.
Punishing the Germans for actions on the Battlefield might have been a kangaroo court or for starting a war.
However punishing those responsible for the murdering of innocent civilians who were rounded up but he state and then executed just because of thier race or religion is more then justified.
The thing that annoys me is when people call all the German soldiers Nazi's, when they were conscripted and probably didnt even know what they were trying to create. The situation with death camps and stuff, is simply that they were following orders.
No i'm saying the allies should have cut the crap and lined all the too dirty Nazi leaders up against a wall and shot them. Same net result, non of the BS. Or they should have been put into a concentration camp and worked to death or gassed. I prefer poetic justice to moral justice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
True, but he wanted to be stood up against a wall and shot. He lost and he wanted to get what he had coming, IE a bullet in the head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
I'm going to answer these together. The problem i have is that while Germans were reviled and put through years of trials. Russians who did the exact same things. Like soviet divisional commanders ordering their troops to rape German women burn German villages and kill civilians. Also soviet subs sank German hospital/refugee ships fleeing from the red amries advance into east Prussia. Killed about 30000 wounded men and German women and children. Then these same Russians stood in judgement over the Germans at Neuremburg. Basically the Russians practiced and eye for an eye and get away with it while the Germans are going to have to live with it for another generation or two. To me Neuermburg is tained and a kangaroo court because the soviets were involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Far be it from me to condone what the Sovs did, but remember these factors. The Soviets were not the aggressors on the Eastern Front (unless you want to include the Polish land-grab). IIRC, the Soviets lost 25 million people in the war, soldiers and civilians. The Reich economical adminstration targeted civilians in occupied territory for death through starvation. The Holocaust gets most of the press, but the Soviets death toll was over 4 times that of the Holocaust. If I remember my Shirer correctly, the Soviets had not signed the Geneva convention, so the Germans felt the protections given did not apply in the East (and the German POWs also paid in kind). It was essentially a war of extermination, so the Soviets felt payback was necessary. As Chris Rock says, I don't condone it, but I do understand it.Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
As for the medal controversy, what are the numbers for medals given out by the UK/Commonwealth (Victoria Crosses???), Soviets (Orders of Lenin???), Italians (no clue), and Japanese (did they even have medals?). Naval and air combat don't really lend themselves to situations where CMoHs are awarded, and the US infantry didn't really get rolling against the Germans until Italy. The German infantry was fighting from 1939 on, the time scale heavily favors them. It would be interesting to see the medal count for SS vs regular German forces. My guess is that the count would be skewed towards the SS, with discrepancies in the valour/merit awards.
and i more than agree ~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Oh boy.
Both sides had their heroes, and both sides had their zeroes.
I would not dare to doubt the (general) courage of all sides soldiers. Poor saps, who had usually no choice in the matter.
Whatever happened, happened. It's 60 years in the past. The blame game and the mine's bigger than yours talks are pittyful. Might as well debate heroism during the various sides during the civil war, or the vietnam war, the zulu wars or the Falkland war.
And what is the meaning of this compairison with the Taliban or AQ? Any country that ever had a civil war had people like AQ or the taliban. They either won or lost... but they did not all magically disappear after the struggle was over. So, who do you descend from?
My problem is that in the total victims scale Stalin's Russia killed more than Hitlers Germany. Coupled with that the world at large is far more willing to let Russia off the hook for Stalin's crimes against humanity than they are to let the the Germans off the hook for Hitler's.Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
so stalin was a bitch too...but stalin won the war....thats the difference my friend...
The vast majority of them were fighting for their nation, which is a noble enough cause for any man to fight and die for.
The one's that commited the crimes, like the Holocost, of course, are a differant matter of course. But they were the vast minority, most German soldiers simply enlisted to fight for their country.
Oh, and with the Iron Cross, realize there are about 40000000 ranks of Iron Cross:
Iron Cross 2nd Class
Iron Cross 1st Class
Knights Cross of the Iron Cross
Knights Cross w/ Oakleaves
Knights Cross w/ Oakleaves and Swords
Knights Cross w/ Oakleaves, Swords, and Diamonds
Knights Cross w/ Gold Oakleaves, Swords, and Diamonds
There was also the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross.
-WikipediaQuote:
In total, 7,313 awards of the Knight's Cross were made, but only 883 received Oak Leaves and 159 received Oak Leaves and Swords. Only 27 men were ever awarded the Diamonds grade of the Knight's Cross, and Hans-Ulrich Rudel was the only recipient of the Knight's Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds.
So while the 2nd and 1st Class Iron Crosses weren't as presitigious as the US Medal of Honor, the higher tiers of the award were equal, if not even more prestigious.
Its facinating how everyone is stuck in a nationalistic way of thinking. Just couse your fighting for you country doesnt make you a hero. A german could be a hero in the second world war couse he might have saved his mates lifes or maybe couse he killed lots of 'commisars' in the soviet army.
A true hero is one that looks beyond nationalism and fights for a good Idea. The Germans, no matter how you twist and turn, fought of the idea of National-Socialism.
Same goes for soviet soldiers, they fought for Stalins twisted corupt-communism.
One could then argue that they had no choice, and I agree with that, most people fought against they will in ww2. And that is the only argument that works; that they fought against their will and no choice.
The real heroes in history are people like the volunteers of the spanish civil-war whom fought the facists, and soldiers of the democratic countries in the second world war. The spies that helped win the war against the nazis.
But what I wanted to say is that people need to brake free from nationalistic ways of thinking, I would never fight for Sweden as an Idea, for Sweden as a nation, I would only fight for my family, friends and democracy. And the idea of democracy and family spread beyond nation-borders.
Anyway, I hope you all understand what I mean.
Im afraid i only think nationlist, for Queen and Country, i would love to give my life for Great Britian, i wouldnt think about it twice.
Well put, Lazul. Fighting for ideas but not for love is as meaningless as fighting for love but not for ideas. Fighting for people you love as well as for ideas that support and nourish them is worthwhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazul
:bow:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazul
A man only has three things in this world that cannot be taken away.
God, pride, and Country.
Go ahead. Take my pride, it's just a destructive emotion of arrogance. I don't have a "God" for you to take but I will allow you to take away if I have one. Just don't replace Him. Country? Well, I don't own a country to be "taken away."Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
I see that in extremism lies the very large garbage of discarded outdated utterly foolish "ideas."
Bravery and courage have nothing to do with politics. The Waffen-SS had some very courageous men in their organizations as did the Taliban, the Red Army, the Japanese, American, French and any other army you care to name. Did Red Army soldiers not deserve recognition for their gallant acts because of the evil of Stalins regime? Do southerners deserve the name of coward because of slavery? Are the Spartans who died at Thermopylae unworthy because of their treatment of the Helots?
The problem with historical revisionism is that almost no one can meet the modern standards we hold dear that didn't exist in their day. We will in time be condemned in the same way.
You first.Quote:
They represented their nation of Dichter und Denker, not the scum that fought on the Eastern front. Get real.
And to help you, I would suggest reading some accounts of the men who actually fought on the eastern front before making such broad and idiotic statements. :no:
Which is what I disagree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
It is showing a direct bias when you state that the highest award for one military outranks another.
It is about as accurate as saying Gold medals won by Germans in the Olympics are more valuable then Gold medals won by the Americans...
How many Iron Crosses were awarded for the heroic feat of sinking the Ark Royal , before the Axis actually managed to sink the ship ? ~D ~D ~D
Oh yeah , Germany was Hitler and Hitler was Germany , if the soldiers didn't know what they were fighting for then they should have listened to all their governments propoganda in the 6 years before the war ~;)
Its the evil Jews , the sub human Slavs , the corrupt Capitalists and intellectuals, they must be erradicated and the world brought under the dominance of the Aryan Master Race .
Now put on this nice uniform and pledge alliegence to the Furher . :dizzy2:
P.S.: Do you have a problems with Nazis or with Germans?
Ummmm ..... thats a hard one ...how could anyone with even half a brain not have a problem with the Nazis ?
It is about as accurate as saying Gold medals won by Germans in the Olympics are more valuable then Gold medals won by the Americans...
Well German olympic Gold medals are more valuable , as they are rarer ~D ~D ~D
Lol exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Anyway, people, why should it work in reverse, that the MoH is worth more than the IC then? Hypocracy at it's best.
Kaiser do you mean KC (8000 awarded) or IC (2 to 3 million awarded) in WWII?
Compared to MOH 400 and VC 181 + 1 Bar?
How can there be any honour in fighting for a country that has industrialized the extermination of millions of innocent people?
It’s like the Iraqi Republican Guardsmen who fought to defend a country where the Al- Mukhabarat could freely stuff people into acid baths.
How can there be any honour in fighting for a country that has industrialized the extermination of millions of innocent people?
Hey thats just the Superhuman efficiency of the Master race .
You ask an excellent question. It is simple, well-phrased, and connected to a brief real-world example that highlights your theme. I will have to think about this before answering properly. The answer will, necessarily, be less pithy than this question, since a simple yes or no would be an answer but would illuminate nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dâriûsh
MODERATOR: Could this be sliced off as its own question? This stands alone very well.
Seamus
http://exordio.com/1939-1945/photos/lutjens.jpg
He fought for the fatherland, and no one can say he was not a true hero, in every sense of the word. If you can, speak up now.
Many German soldiers knew about the persecution of Jews. Look at Beevor's Stalingrad
"...a 'Jurisdiction Order' deprived Russian civilians of any right of appeal, and effectively exonerated soldiers from crimes committed against them, whether murder, rape or looting," (14)
"Sixth Army Headquarters, for example, cooperated with SS Sonderkommando 4a, which followed in its tracks almost all the way from the western frontier of the Ukraine to Stalingrad. Not only were staff officers well aware of its activities, they even provided troops to assist in the round up of Jews in Kiev and transport them to the ravine of Babi Yar," (15)
Manstein issued an order to Eleventh Army that read "The jewish-bolshevik system must be rooted out once and for all" he also justified 'harsh measures against Jewry" (17)
"there have been cases of off-duty soldiers volunteering to the the SD with the executions [of Jews and Communists], or acting as spectators and taking photographs..." (55).
The Iron Cross for the most part meant something, some were awarded for show and propaganda (Paulus was awarded one for instance), a pissing contest about which is better Medal of Honor or Iron Cross is pointless, the highest military award is the Combat Infantry Badge or its equivalent.