Gods

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Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

Ahura Mazda evolved from the Iranian group of multiple gods. Zoroaster essentially said that Ahura Mazda was the one true god; sort of like the Arabs and Allah (I believe Allah was part of a group of deities). The other gods got regulated to "angels".
Fire worship was pre Zoroastrianism, and continued on with peoples like the Sarmatians. But you are correct, it was an Aryan thing.

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I do agree with you.
All though I don’t know much more about the Iranian gods than what I have already posted in this thread, there is one more thing.
Angra Mainyu the evil counterpart of Ahura Mazda, the evil twin-brother of Ahura Mazda, the all-destroying Satan, the source of all evil; does fit nicely in with the other polytheistic religions of the ancient world.
Wasn’t Lucifer also a son of God, a brother of Jesus, and evil counterpart; one that chose evil over good and became the source of all evil?
It is obvious that having a brother also means having parents.
Even though many would disagree, there is strong suggestions that Christianity and Judaism has a polytheistic source. The quote “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani” or “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabach-thani” does suggest someone calling to a higher source. It is interesting that one Christian denomination attributes Eloihim/Elohim as the name of the Father god and Yahweh/Jehovah as the son god.
Elohim is a plural form of El (remember the father of Baal?) and the Arab version is Alah. Islam is not something I have studied, but as you suggest, Allah could be the same as El, Eloihim and other Father gods…
Concerning Óðinn and fire worshiping and being monotheistic, I was merely playing with thoughts.
It is obvious that from reading the Icelandic sagas that Óðinn and his family came from the area around the Caucasian mountain range at the base of the Black Sea and that he had lands in Tyrkland (Turkey). That he was a fire-worshipper and brought the custom of burning the dead to North-Europe strongly suggest that he was from the Aryan area using well known migration routes when he fled the Roman expansion around 100 BC.

I think Lucifer is an angel that went bad. However, I don't think it was until later that he got the importance that Angra Mainyu had.

And there was actually a rock in I think Mecca (not sure), that had all of the Arabic gods on there. Then, after the belief that Allah was the only god, I think some Caliphates panicked when they heard that some were worshipping only Allah, and some were worshipping all of the gods, but Allah as the head. I think this caused the Koran to be written, and for the god's name to be defaced off of the big rock.

Not too sure though, that is from memory and may very well be wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

I think Lucifer is an angel that went bad. However, I don't think it was until later that he got the importance that Angra Mainyu had.

And there was actually a rock in I think Mecca (not sure), that had all of the Arabic gods on there. Then, after the belief that Allah was the only god, I think some Caliphates panicked when they heard that some were worshipping only Allah, and some were worshipping all of the gods, but Allah as the head. I think this caused the Koran to be written, and for the god's name to be defaced off of the big rock.

Not too sure though, that is from memory and may very well be wrong.

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That is supposedly the big black one...

Quote:

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I do agree with you.
All though I don’t know much more about the Iranian gods than what I have already posted in this thread, there is one more thing.
Angra Mainyu the evil counterpart of Ahura Mazda, the evil twin-brother of Ahura Mazda, the all-destroying Satan, the source of all evil; does fit nicely in with the other polytheistic religions of the ancient world.
Wasn’t Lucifer also a son of God, a brother of Jesus, and evil counterpart; one that chose evil over good and became the source of all evil?
It is obvious that having a brother also means having parents.
Even though many would disagree, there is strong suggestions that Christianity and Judaism has a polytheistic source. The quote “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani” or “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabach-thani” does suggest someone calling to a higher source. It is interesting that one Christian denomination attributes Eloihim/Elohim as the name of the Father god and Yahweh/Jehovah as the son god.
Elohim is a plural form of El (remember the father of Baal?) and the Arab version is Alah. Islam is not something I have studied, but as you suggest, Allah could be the same as El, Eloihim and other Father gods…
Concerning Óðinn and fire worshiping and being monotheistic, I was merely playing with thoughts.
It is obvious that from reading the Icelandic sagas that Óðinn and his family came from the area around the Caucasian mountain range at the base of the Black Sea and that he had lands in Tyrkland (Turkey). That he was a fire-worshipper and brought the custom of burning the dead to North-Europe strongly suggest that he was from the Aryan area using well known migration routes when he fled the Roman expansion around 100 BC.

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The problem I see with this is that it was Snorri who wrote this because he didn't really belived that his people's old gods had been devils and so wanted to preserve the memory of the gods, explaining their cult insteed of the Christian (too which he belonged) one. And thus explained how these gods had reached the Nordic peoples by claiming that they were ighty kings from Asia who conquered the north.

Myself I am not that sure, of what I have read I would say that some gods either came from Asia, riding one a horse with a spear and driving chariots don't really fit in the forest up here. I however doubt that they were real persons who after their deaths were deitifed. However many of them, including both Tyr and Odin seemed to come from Germany.

Of course I could be wrong...

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Originally Posted by Gurkhal

The problem I see with this is that it was Snorri who wrote this because he didn't really belived that his people's old gods had been devils and so wanted to preserve the memory of the gods, explaining their cult insteed of the Christian (too which he belonged) one. And thus explained how these gods had reached the Nordic peoples by claiming that they were ighty kings from Asia who conquered the north.

Myself I am not that sure, of what I have read I would say that some gods either came from Asia, riding one a horse with a spear and driving chariots don't really fit in the forest up here. I however doubt that they were real persons who after their deaths were deitifed. However many of them, including both Tyr and Odin seemed to come from Germany.

Of course I could be wrong...

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You could...
I will not say you are as I merely hold other beliefs. I say beliefs as no overwhelming facts exist.
My beliefs are based on the following subjective opinions and “facts”:
· That it was biased 18th century scholars who discredited Snorre.
· People in the Nordic nations were never truly converted to Christianity.
· There is an archaeological trail to Caucasus yielding older Norse artefacts the closer you get to Tanais River at the base of the Black Sea.
· The tradition of humanity to deify their kings (the source of all religion).
· The details of Snorre even amaze scholars of southern Russia, Armenia and Azerbaijan.
· The genealogy of the European Royal families.
and more...

Well obviously we are of different beliffs, and I do as you not say that I hold any objective truth but subjective beliffs.

I do however don't belive that Snorri was right as most books about Norse religion I have read don't agree with Snorri about the origion of the Norse gods.

I do not say that some of the gods themselves could not have come from Asia, as Odin is connected with the practice of shamns, which were made by females at most times and rides to war on a horse with a spear.

I don't hold the same beliff as you regarding deitified kings, importent religious leaders I would say but I do not agree that they would be seen as gods. Nor do I agree with the idea that kings and rulers would be the source of all religion, but that is just my personal belife and I could of course be wrong.