Im going to have to say noQuote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
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Im going to have to say noQuote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Since I am a Euro pinko crypto-Communist, I supply Faisal with the stuff. Whenever it comes up in court our defense is he got a bad deal as a kid and George Bush is to blame.Quote:
Originally Posted by faisal
Goes down a riot, at least in French courts. ~;p
Im going to say no. For every 1 Chrstian extremist there are 100 muslim ones (not painting yall with the same brush) and they seem to be more fantical. Anyone can blow themselves up GC no matter what the econmic situationQuote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
This assertion needs scientific support.Quote:
Anyone can blow themselves up GC no matter what the econmic situation
Look at what that terrorist scum is doing in Jordan - blowing up, killing muslims peacefully attending a wedding. What's wrong with these people?
Yeah its terrible , all those international delegates at the UN conference and security contractors could have ended up as collateral damage in this new war against weddings .
Whats wrong with these people ?????
It might be something to do with them being murderous bastards , but that is just a guess .
Its not the fault of the religion - its the fault of the murderous bastards who want to use religion and violence together to inflame people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
unfortunately, It seems to work more often then not.
Its not the fault of the religion
Hey hey , have you ever seen me blame any religeon Red ?
Or use religeon to justify anything(apart from in sarcastic mode) .
I think my "guess" might be on target , though I don't really know how I could possibly come to that particular conclusion .~;)
Tribe I think Red was agreeing with you...~:cheers:
Waco Texas, Oklahoma and the KKK to name just 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by strike for the south
If you look at the Muslim countries, roughly the better off economically and socially it is the lesser amount of terrorism there is.
Compare UAE with Afghanistan or the Sudan.
You would be corrrect. ~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
But it is nice to see Tribesman jump. :duel: :hide:
See previous post. ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Don't know either - maybe because murderous bastards are murderous bastards regardless of what religion they might be (or lack of)Quote:
I think my "guess" might be on target , though I don't really know how I could possibly come to that particular conclusion .~;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
OK I hate to burst your bubble there is no KKK anymore (The one that claims to be are just old southeners or nazis who think they can be from the south.) Point is they have no power and never will. Im glad you can only point out 2 incdents one of which does not even have to do with religon. Does anyone remember the 9-11 hijackers most of them were afflunet. Its not about money it is about power hungry people angry becuase they are not the forefront of civilaztion and are jelaous of the west. Its about what they preach
Can we get back on subject, these are murderous bastards REGARDLESS of what religion they CLAIM. The only claim they have is the fiery pits of hell. Can't believe I'm about to say this but, stop the Islam bashing. This has little to do with religion except maybe the perversion of it.
It is more or less accepted that Al Qaida planned to hit one or more hotels in Amman during the Millennium Celebrations of 2000, but the plan was foiled by Jordanian security. It seems they have carried it out almost six years later. Someone seems to have been on the alert though:
Haaretz
10/11/2005
Israelis evacuated from Amman hotel hours before bombings
by Yoav Stern, Haaretz Correspondent
A number of Israelis staying on Wednesday at the Radisson hotel were evacuated before the bombing by Jordanian security forces, apparently due to a specific security alert. They were escorted back to Israel by security personnel.
The Foreign Ministry stated Wednesday that no Israeli tourists are known to have been injured in the blasts. Representatives of Israel's embassy in Amman were in contact with local authorities to examine any report of injured Israelis, but none were received. There are often a number of Israeli businessman and tourists in Amman, including in the hotels hit Wednesday.
Israel's counter-terror headquarters on Wednesday recommended Israeli citizens not travel in Jordan. Travel warnings regarding Jordan were tightened a few months ago, but many Israelis still visit the country. Many also visit other regions such as the Jordanian Arava and the ancient city of Petra.
Link
...Oh crud, I find myself agreeing with Gelcube...~:mecry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Socio-political instability/economic futility is almost always the best recipe for hate groups. There is a reason the KKK formed during the oh-so-genteel Reconstruction. The hyper-inflation of the Weimar yielded Nazi domination (indirectly at least); the recession of 1784-88 resulted in the French revolution; the dissolution of the Manchu dynasty allowed for the development of the Red Chinese and the Kuomintang....
However, SFTS has brought up a point that is worthy of evaluation. He has suggested, and anecdotal evidence would support, that Islam appears to generate fanatics in greater numbers (per capita) than have the other belief systems -- even accounting for the disparate socio-political conditions. While suicide warriors are hardly unique to Islam, only fuedal Japan seems to have produced them with more frequency.
Thoughts?
Could there be more simple answer than "that's the truth". Period. As secular society gains power, religion in all it's forms loses ground, this means political appeal too.
Any statistics? Nowadays you can proove everything with statistics...That could be, and in my opinion is, an accidental conclusion of historic events development. There's no element in the proper religion of Islam, that I know, wich implies propention towards extremism, at least not more than the same elements founded on the other two greats. Thus it doesn't proves anything.Quote:
However, SFTS has brought up a point that is worthy of evaluation. He has suggested, and anecdotal evidence would support, that Islam appears to generate fanatics in greater numbers (per capita) than have the other belief systems -- even accounting for the disparate socio-political conditions. While suicide warriors are hardly unique to Islam, only fuedal Japan seems to have produced them with more frequency.
Also as I always say, ideas have not that much power that some people give to them, they only work if you accept them, so the problem is always the people not the idea.
Well, I was certainly NOT trying to shift the blame from the individual thugs responsible for the attacks onto the shoulders of Islam as a whole. I acknowledge that the evidence is anecdotal, but it does SEEM that their is a stronger tendency toward fanatical violence arising from those who claim Islam as their motivating force than from other sects/beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
Statistics are simply numbers. They prove little unless the operational definitions/procedures used in data collection and data manipulation processes are clearly delineated. Never accept a statistic without knowing how it was calculated. You probably know this already, but it is always helpful to remind yourself of this.
Yes I know it. But I told you that because you based your assumptions on your second part in the statement of SFTS that for every Christian extremist there's a hundred Islamic extremist, that's why I asked for some statistics. Maybe I made a mistake?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
From CNN
Quote:
Al-Zarqawi suspected in Jordan terror blasts.
AMMAN, Jordan (CNN) -- A Jordanian official says Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the head of al Qaeda in Iraq, is a "prime suspect" in three nearly simultaneous suicide blasts that killed at least 57 people in and near hotels in downtown Amman.
Several of the dead were Palestinian officials.
More than 150 people were hurt in the bombings, the largest of which targeted a wedding celebration inside a hotel banquet room.
Deputy Prime Minister Marwan Muasher said that blast, at a Radisson Hotel, was set off by a suicide bomber wearing a belt packed with explosives.
"Most of the casualties occurred at that wedding party. And most of them, if not all, were Jordanian," he told CNN.
The blasts occurred sequentially at the Radisson, the Grand Hyatt and the Days Inn Hotel between 9 p.m. and 10 p.m. (2 p.m. -3 p.m. ET) Wednesday. The three international hotels are located within a few hundred yards of each other.
The blast inside the Grand Hyatt also appeared to have been caused by a bomber wearing an explosive belt, he said.
The Days Inn blast occurred when a car attempted to cross a security barrier, could not, and exploded outside the hotel, he said.
Randa Jaaqoub told CNN she was in the lobby of the Grand Hyatt with her fiance when that blast occurred.
"Everything just exploded, and we had fire and smoke all over," the Jordanian American from Chicago said. "We saw the bodies and blood all over."
Though security forces sealed off the three hotels almost immediately after the attacks, a reporter for the Jordanian Times, Rana Husseini, gained entrance to the Radisson about 20 minutes after the explosion there.
The lobby and wedding hall were "totally destroyed," she said, with shattered glass all over the floor.
"There were tables and chairs turned over, there was blood on the chairs, it was really a horrific scene." (Watch eyewitness accounts -- 2:46)
The groom said the blast took place as he and his fiance were entering the wedding hall. He lost as many as 10 of his relatives, including his father, he said. No Westerners were at the party, he said.
"This is not Islam," he said. "This is a terrorist fighting our capital."
Video from the scene showed hundreds of police and emergency officials cordoning off the area around the hotels. Inside the Radisson, a hole was blown into the ceiling of a ballroom and tables and chairs were strewn across the room.
Dozens of ambulances lined up outside the hotels, loaded up and sped off, their sirens wailing and lighting up the night.
An emergency Cabinet meeting was convened shortly after the explosions.
"This is something that Jordan is not used to," Muasher said, taking a break from the meeting. "Obviously, we are not happy about what happened and we are going to take whatever measures we can to guard against these terrorist activities."
No group immediately claimed responsibility for the attack. But Muasher said Jordanian-born terrorist al-Zarqawi, the head of al Qaeda in Iraq and that country's most-wanted terrorist, is among the suspects.
"Obviously, he's a prime suspect," Muasher said. (Watch a report on al-Zarqawi suspected -- 2:09)
Jordanian King Abdullah II issued a statement condemning the attacks and saying that Jordan "will be resilient."
Karim Kawar, the Jordanian ambassador to the United States, said the attacks have "come as a shock to all of us."
"We try to be as vigilant as possible but, at the end of the day, we're all vulnerable to such attacks," he said in Washington.
In a written statement, Jordanian House Speaker Abdel Hadi Majali called the blasts "a criminal terrorist act."
Asked whether al Qaeda may have been behind them, he said, "There is definitely an organization behind these attacks. Al Qaeda tried before and we foiled some attacks and this could be one of those times when they were able to bypass our security forces."
Palestinian officials among dead
Jordanian Embassy officials in Washington said the blasts came without warning, and no Jordanian government officials were among the casualties.
Officials from other governments, however, were among the dead. Four Palestinians, including Maj. Gen. Bashir Nafeh, head of Palestinian military intelligence, died in the blast at the Grand Hyatt, according to chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erakat. Also killed was Col. Abed Allun; Jihad Fattouh, the brother of the Palestinian parliament speaker; and Mosab Khoma, Erakat said. The four were on their way back from Cairo, Egypt, he said, adding that he condemned the attack in the strongest terms possible.
In addition, three Chinese were killed and one wounded in the attacks, according to the Chinese news agency Xinhua, which cited a press release on the Chinese Foreign Ministry's Web site. They were members of a delegation from China's University of National Defense and were staying at one of the hotels, according to the report. Which hotel was not specified.
Jordanian Prime Minister Adnan Badran told Jordanian television that government offices and schools would be closed Thursday.
'Cowardly' attacks condemned
Though the hotels cater to international travelers, it was not clear whether they were targeted. The Hyatt is the most expensive, followed by the Radisson and then the Days Inn, but all three are commonly used by Jordanians, said a Westerner who has lived in Jordan for more than a year.
In Washington, a spokesman for the White House said the administration knew of no U.S. casualties.
U.S. President George W. Bush called the attacks "cowardly" and "barbaric."
The State Department had issued no recent travel warnings for Americans visiting Jordan.
The Radisson Hotel was the target of a 1999 plot prior to the millennium celebrations, but Jordanian law enforcement broke up the plot.
After Wednesday's attack, Radisson said in a statement: "We are saddened by this tragic incident and are mobilizing to clarify the facts and assist those who have been impacted."
Hyatt said its management team is "working to assure the safety and relocation of guests," given that authorities had evacuated the targeted hotels.
Days Inn issued a statement saying four of its guests were wounded, three of them seriously, but no one had died.
Jordan, considered a key Arab ally of the United States, helps train Iraqi troops and hosts the headquarters of international aid agencies that pulled relief workers out of Iraq as the insurgency deepened there.
It is also the homeland of al-Zarqawi, the wanted terrorist in Iraq who has a $25 million reward posted for his head.
In August, al-Zarqawi's group claimed responsibility for rocket attacks that targeted but missed two U.S. warships in the Jordanian Red Sea port of Aqaba.
Jordanian authorities said the attackers kept insurgent leaders in Iraq informed of their progress.
CNN's Hala Gorani contributed to this report.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/...sts/index.html
~:mecry:
No - but it seems the terrorist chose the wedding party to maximize the carnarge - and that was seemingly more important than hitting "western contract workers, ngo's and media working in Iraq".Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Meaning what? Neither is acceptable.Quote:
Besides which weddings in Iraq have been bombed as well havn't they .
I didn't think so because these attacks are always meant to serve various purposes at the same time. Al-Zawahiri's guidelines are rather clear on that: they target westerners and western institutions as well as all muslims or Arabs who 'go near' these targets. The Al Qaida 'claim' that has surfaced last night is certainly in line with this policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
And look at some of the victims.Quote:
The Guardian
The statement said Amman is "a backyard for the enemies of the faith, the Jews and crusaders...a filthy place for the traitors...and a centre for prostitution."
At least 57 people and more than 100 were wounded when suicide bombers targeted three hotels in the Jordanian capital. The Grand Hyatt, Radisson and Days Inn hotels were said to be popular with foreigners and many of the guests were involved in the reconstruction of Iraq.
Bassel Tarawneh, a spokesman for the Jordanian government, said the victims included 15 Jordanians, one Saudi, one Palestinian, five Iraqis, three Chinese, one Indonesian and 30 others. Two Palestinian security officials and an Israeli-Arab are also believed to be among the dead.
Quote:
The Times
Bashir Nafeh, director of military intelligence chief in the West Bank, was named as being among the dead. He had stopped in Amman with Colonel Abed Allun, a high-ranking security official, and Rawhi Futtah, the commercial attache at the Palestinian Embassy in Egypt and brother of the speaker in the Palestinian parliament. All three were staying in the Grand Hyatt.
Indeed - no "Westerner" seems to be among the indentified victims so far - at least I haven't heard about one yet - and your quoted sources do not mention one either.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
AQ might claim that they target Westerners, but in reality they hit Western property and semmingly killed almost exclusively muslims, including the guests of the wedding party (with no Western guests) and members of the Palestinian administration.
Let's face it - they do not care one bit who dies in the attacks, as long as they can somehow create the impression that it was an attack on the West and its allies.
Bah, he did boom in the middle of a wedding party, screw their primitive bloodlust.
I didn´t say all muslims are extremists! I´m not bloody stupid... I think the world would be calmer without Islam, that´s it. What makes you think the opposite? And why would the world be better without ´atheists´ like me? ~:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by faisal
Meaning what? Neither is acceptable.
I know that , and you know that , but I am waiting for some posters who have justified bombing weddings and hotels on this forum to make a post in this topic so I can remind them of their own words .~;)
Do not underestimate the enemy. Those who blew themselves up may have been primitive, those who set the suicide bombers up might be very sophisticated. In Al Qaida's case they certainly are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Sheesh, such a lack of perspective. Let's put it this way:
How old a phenomenom is international terrorism carried out by Muslims ?
I'd say about thirty or forty years; AFAIK the Palestinian ultras pioneered it with their aircraft hijackings and suchlike after they realized the ever-inflamed Israel issue wasn't going to be resolved by straight military means (AFAIK the last time Israel actually fought a straight war with its Arab neighbors was in the Seventies; after that the other side seems to have admitted the facts and stopped trying). The reciporoal bomb-throwing between the Palestinians and the Israelis doesn't really count IMO, being essentially some sort of low-intensity civil war/border dispute. Even with Qaddafi's escapades thrown in it was all really rather low-key, although obviously the passengers in the planes that blew up would disagree.
But then again, most major European states had at least a few domestic politically motvated terrorist groups around that time too (usually styling themselves as Red Somethingorother). Heck, even Japan had at least one. It seems to have been that kind of period.
Now, when was the first time Osama and his boys made it to the limelight ? Don't quote me on thins, but I'm thinking mid-late Nineties. And they were still being fairly low-key, by what I recall.
When did things start picking up ? 11.9.2001 and aftermath. Particularly the aftermath. One has to wonder if Osama was specifically trying to become the trigger for an entirely new kind of conflict; if so, he certainly succeeded. In any case things have been getting more hectic since then, no doubt largely because the "jihadists" regardless of their religious affectations are actually primarily motivated by assorted vicissitudes of entirely temporal politics and developements, in which they have an audience in many an angry young man.
Conversely the assorted Irish ultras have been going at it for something like a century, for fairly specifically religious reasons (religious division being the single biggest denominator in all the other issues involved). Has that made anyone declare Christianity a religion of bomb-throwing madmen "with 100 extremists for every Muslim one", as it were ?
Not exactly.
Every man equal before the law, wrote even Hammurabi thousands of years ago.
Indeed. Those innocent civilians were just as much a target as any westerner that might be present. Jordan is a US ally, and the goal of the official Al-Qaeda fatwa statement is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al-Qaeda
ArticleQuote:
The Associated Press
CAIRO, Egypt - In an apparent response to Jordanians who took to the streets to call for its leader to "burn in hell," al-Qaida in Iraq took the rare step Thursday of trying to justify the triple suicide bombings that killed 56 people, mostly Arabs.
Earlier Thursday, the group posted a Web statement claiming responsibility for Wednesday's attacks. Then a second al-Qaida statement appeared on the Internet "to explain for Muslims part of the reason holy warriors targeted these dens." That statement appeared after Arab-wide expressions of outrage.
"Let all know that we have struck only after becoming confident that they are centers for launching war on Islam and support the crusaders' presence in Iraq and the Arab peninsula and the presence of the Jews on the land of Palestine," the group said.
The statement said the hotels that were hit were "favorite places for the work of the intelligence organs, especially those of the Americans, the Israelis and some western European countries" for what the group called "invisible battles in the so-called war on terrorism."
The statement also said the hotels, the Grand Hyatt, the Radisson SAS and the Days Inn, were used by NATO as a rear base "from which the convoys of the crusaders and the renegades head back and forth to the land of Iraq where Muslims are killed and their blood is shed."
Striking a moral tone, the al-Qaida manifesto said the hotels were a "secure place for the filthy Israeli and Western tourists to spread corruption and adultery at the expense and suffering of the Muslims in these countries."
Warning that Wednesday's attacks would pale by comparison, the statement promised "catastrophic" assaults in the future.
"Let everyone know that we will never hesitate in targeting these places wherever they are... . By God, we have never noticed them caring when they shed the blood of Muslims and rape the honor of the decent women," the statement said.
The hotels, frequented by Israelis and Americans among other foreign guests, have long been on al-Qaida's hit list.
The statements' authenticity could not be independently verified, but they appeared on an Islamic Web site that is a clearinghouse for statements by militant groups.
Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
Copyright © 2005 ABC News Internet Ventures
Since when have they needed to justify any of their actions?