Re: Where do i get replays /tactics
Hi guys, in 1.5, cav are slighly weaker so phalanx are more resilent to cav charge in the front but a test shows that cav stack charge to the front is still very devasting to non pike units, not like BI which can be quite sucidal, cav still dominates the games in RTW vanilla you still see players still using 6 or more cav in 1.5 RTW, in BI this had dropped to usually not more than 5 melee cav, sometimes only 1-2(and some zero) in an army, none the less cav still have the potential to act as a decisve force in BI.
Limit rules are always there to ensure a healthy level of intelliegent games, we simply can't stop random players with 1.2 spam mentality from fielding all cav armies in BI/RTW which is quite stupid considering that inf are stronger in BI and RTW 1.5 than in RTW 1.2 and that can offenly spoil a potential good game.
One thing you have to note is phalanx are extremely hard to beat in a frontal fight now when they are in neat, tight formation leaving no gaps between units because the enemy now dies at in the edge of the pike, even romans preats have problem dealing with pike in neat tight formations...
... now the new problem is... pike kill slower...even more slower if the unit facing pike use defensive mode, they seems to be more vulnerable to overlapping 1.5, so if the pike break fromation or try to be agressive against say, non pike infantry, exposing themselves to overlap, they can be beaten very easily. They are still very vunerable to missle not to mention slow.
Troops with anti cav abilites now work properly but unlike their counterpart in BI they do not form shiltron or shield wall, making them less effective against the umber cavs of RTW, most phalanx armies do not have spearman, so relying on units like eles/chariots/cav to win the flanks is even more important than it use to be especially for phalanx armies facing rome. Don't forget though, rome still have their killer pilums which is pretty nasty, combine with cheap and effecient aux archers(and preat cav) its pretty clear which side will have a better head start in terms of control.
Re: Where do i get replays /tactics
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaLurker
Hi guys, in 1.5, cav are slighly weaker so phalanx are more resilent to cav charge in the front but a test shows that cav stack charge to the front is still very devasting to non pike units, not like BI which can be quite sucidal, cav still dominates the games in RTW vanilla you still see players still using 6 or more cav in 1.5 RTW, in BI this had dropped to usually not more than 5 melee cav, sometimes only 1-2(and some zero) in an army, none the less cav still have the potential to act as a decisve force in BI.
Well that's correct isn't it? cav --> swords --> pikes --> cav
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaLurker
Limit rules are always there to ensure a healthy level of intelliegent games, we simply can't stop random players with 1.2 spam mentality from fielding all cav armies in BI/RTW which is quite stupid considering that inf are stronger in BI and RTW 1.5 than in RTW 1.2 and that can offenly spoil a potential good game.
Bring on the all cav. It looses now against anti-cav infantry, so after a while you won't see all cav armies anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaLurker
One thing you have to note is phalanx are extremely hard to beat in a frontal fight now when they are in neat, tight formation leaving no gaps between units because the enemy now dies at in the edge of the pike, even romans preats have problem dealing with pike in neat tight formations...
... now the new problem is... pike kill slower...even more slower if the unit facing pike use defensive mode, they seems to be more vulnerable to overlapping 1.5, so if the pike break fromation or try to be agressive against say, non pike infantry, exposing themselves to overlap, they can be beaten very easily. They are still very vunerable to missle not to mention slow.
I think that's ok. Phalanx did loose if it broke formation or its flanks became exposed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaLurker
Troops with anti cav abilites now work properly but unlike their counterpart in BI they do not form shiltron or shield wall, making them less effective against the umber cavs of RTW, most phalanx armies do not have spearman, so relying on units like eles/chariots/cav to win the flanks is even more important than it use to be especially for phalanx armies facing rome. Don't forget though, rome still have their killer pilums which is pretty nasty, combine with cheap and effecient aux archers(and preat cav) its pretty clear which side will have a better head start in terms of control.
I used to play MP as The Greek Cities quite often, and it was difficult due to their weak cav. That seems to be a faction balance issue, but it's actually more accurate historically because the cavalry did decline after Alexander and the phalanx lost to the more flexible Romans as a result. Of course, in MP that translates to the faction being less desireable to play or even unplayable against an opponent of equal skill.
Re: Where do i get replays /tactics
Cav--->swords---> pike----> cav? No thats don't seems ok, you don't just rout a line of fresh heavy infantry with a spam stack cav that, MTW scissor paper stone theory...that was pretty lame atually.
Yes Cav spaming have stopped good ridance but the use of cav is not dimished and still dominating simply because cav still have the sames stats.
Yeah phanlanx did lose when the break formation historically, so would their cav if they are too slow to do anything...so should they break formation to help their cav getting wiped out slowly by arrows after they lose the archers war against rome or should they try to out run the romans who are already slaugthering their cav with Preatorian cavalry and urban cohort? At the same time, while while the selecid achers are struggling to kill the aux archers, their chariots are most likely running their own men down due to longer range fire arrows.
"I used to play MP as The Greek Cities quite often, and it was difficult due to their weak cav. That seems to be a faction balance issue, but it's actually more accurate historically because the cavalry did decline after Alexander and the phalanx lost to the more flexible Romans as a result. Of course, in MP that translates to the faction being less desireable to play or even unplayable against an opponent of equal skill."
Exactly, as quoted by yourself, whats the point of anyone trying to make the Romans sound less undefeatable when they are not. Balance is the issue in 1.2 and its new problem arise when new features are badly introduced, making an already powerful faction even tougher, limiting the already small pool of tactics that alvaible to face Rome. Only by using a limited catagory of units which is in turn limited by a number of factions to even things better? So what do we do? Bring on the Brits/egypt/ and any faction that use elephants everytime we face Rome? What if the rules says no ele? Get a factions with chariots? Historically Romans have strong and flexible infantry, but cavalry? So were there historical acurate features or game balancing elements? None of it.
Thus making any form of tactical discussion in RTW vanilla as exciting as discussing about a race between the rabbit and the tortise with rome around.
Re: Where do i get replays /tactics
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaLurker
Cav--->swords---> pike----> cav? No thats don't seems ok, you don't just rout a line of fresh heavy infantry with a spam stack cav that, MTW scissor paper stone theory...that was pretty lame atually.
Well that lame theory is still part of the game design in RTW/BI. Anti-cav infantry get a combat bonus against cavalry. If you want all infantry types to beat cav, that would be ok.
Then you have inf --> cav --> ranged --> inf.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaLurker
Yes Cav spaming have stopped good ridance but the use of cav is not dimished and still dominating simply because cav still have the sames stats.
If the cav spamming has stopped that's good. I don't understand your objection to players using a lot of cav. I don't see anything wrong with that as long as there is a way to counter it. Ever unit should have a counterunit. Or to put it another way. Every unit should have strength and a weakness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaLurker
Yeah phanlanx did lose when the break formation historically, so would their cav if they are too slow to do anything...so should they break formation to help their cav getting wiped out slowly by arrows after they lose the archers war against rome or should they try to out run the romans who are already slaugthering their cav with Preatorian cavalry and urban cohort? At the same time, while while the selecid achers are struggling to kill the aux archers, their chariots are most likely running their own men down due to longer range fire arrows.
I don't think you should be using a slow unit to chase a faster unit. That's playing to your unit's weakness rather than its strength. If you are going to take a relatively slow infantry based army, you cannot afford to loose the ranged duel. Likewise, you have to protect your flanks in some way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaLurker
Exactly, as quoted by yourself, whats the point of anyone trying to make the Romans sound less undefeatable when they are not. Balance is the issue in 1.2 and its new problem arise when new features are badly introduced, making an already powerful faction even tougher, limiting the already small pool of tactics that alvaible to face Rome. Only by using a limited catagory of units which is in turn limited by a number of factions to even things better? So what do we do? Bring on the Brits/egypt/ and any faction that use elephants everytime we face Rome? What if the rules says no ele? Get a factions with chariots? Historically Romans have strong and flexible infantry, but cavalry? So were there historical acurate features or game balancing elements? None of it.
Yes. Well CA said they didn't make historical accuracy or realism high priorities. What I was doing with The Greek Cities was determining by playing how weak I could make the phalanx line so that I could upgrade the cav as much as possible. I'd put some armor on the phalanx so it could absorb a fair amount of ranged fire, but pilum is a problem. I haven't played v1.5 to see if this army purchasing strategy works. It didn't work at all in v1.2, but it worked better in v1.3 since the phalanx line could repel cavalry. My objective is not to beat the romans straight up. I have to maneuver in such a way to get some flank attacks. I don't have to win the ranged duel, but I have to sufficiently neutralize the enemy ranged units so that they cannot significantly harm the phalanx.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaLurker
Thus making any form of tactical discussion in RTW vanilla as exciting as discussing about a race between the rabbit and the tortise with rome around.
Is it really that bad or do you need more imaginative or agressive tactics? Keep the denari low enough so that players can't load up with elite units. A unit like urban cohorts will, for the most part, get priced out of the armies.
Re: Where do i get replays /tactics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
Well that lame theory is still part of the game design in RTW/BI. Anti-cav infantry get a combat bonus against cavalry. If you want all infantry types to beat cav, that would be ok.
Then you have inf --> cav --> ranged --> inf.
.
Point taken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
If the cav spamming has stopped that's good. I don't understand your objection to players using a lot of cav. I don't see anything wrong with that as long as there is a way to counter it. Ever unit should have a counterunit. Or to put it another way. Every unit should have strength and a weakness.
.
I do not object to people taking more cav but rather pointing out that though Cav has been weaken, the element of stack cav charge is still there, so its seems that cav is really not weaken enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
I don't think you should be using a slow unit to chase a faster unit. That's playing to your unit's weakness rather than its strength. If you are going to take a relatively slow infantry based army, you cannot afford to loose the ranged duel. Likewise, you have to protect your flanks in some way.
Don't think there is another option considering the type of troop avaliable in most phalanx army.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
Yes. Well CA said they didn't make historical accuracy or realism high priorities. What I was doing with The Greek Cities was determining by playing how weak I could make the phalanx line so that I could upgrade the cav as much as possible. I'd put some armor on the phalanx so it could absorb a fair amount of ranged fire, but pilum is a problem. I haven't played v1.5 to see if this army purchasing strategy works. It didn't work at all in v1.2, but it worked better in v1.3 since the phalanx line could repel cavalry. My objective is not to beat the romans straight up. I have to maneuver in such a way to get some flank attacks. I don't have to win the ranged duel, but I have to sufficiently neutralize the enemy ranged units so that they cannot significantly harm the phalanx.
Since you have played 1.3, its the same as 1.5, just that 1.3 lags more..., well your objective is to flank a roman infantry, the obejective of the romn infantry is also to flank you isn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
Is it really that bad or do you need more imaginative or agressive tactics? Keep the denari low enough so that players can't load up with elite units. A unit like urban cohorts will, for the most part, get priced out of the armies.
Would you like to suggest a feasible agressive tactcis that can worked with your imagination? One can state, patience, tricks/deception and manipulation or waiting for the opponnet to make their mistake? The same elements mentioned that allows you to beat the Roman opponent who already had a head start in advantage can also be applied by the Roman player...so is the tortise praying for the rabbit to make the same mistake twice?
Re: Where do i get replays /tactics
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaLurker
Would you like to suggest a feasible agressive tactcis that can worked with your imagination? One can state, patience, tricks/deception and manipulation or waiting for the opponnet to make their mistake? The same elements mentioned that allows you to beat the Roman opponent who already had a head start in advantage can also be applied by the Roman player...so is the tortise praying for the rabbit to make the same mistake twice?
Do something to take the opponent out of his gameplan. The last time I had greeks vs romans I charged with my cavalry and then pulled back when the romans countercharged which drew their cav into my archer range. I then massed all my cavalry on one side of the romans and advanced my infantry waiting for opportunities to hit some of their infantry from behind. The idea is to overwhelm your opponent's ability to effectively manage all of his units without you loosing control of your own units. This is why the maneuver aspect of the gameplay and the ability to effectively control all of your units individually is so important because it's the means by which you overcome a combat power deficiency. That's why when I saw the speeded up gameplay of RTW and the reduced flexibility of control in the interface I knew that rush tactics with the most powerful units was going to be very difficult or possibly impossible to overcome. At the time, I never imagined that CA would also drop the combat penalty for stacked units which makes things even worse.
Re: Where do i get replays /tactics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
Do something to take the opponent out of his gameplan. The last time I had greeks vs romans I charged with my cavalry and then pulled back when the romans countercharged which drew their cav into my archer range..
Yeah that is what most vets do, sending fast cav to go running into archer sometimes just to scare/send the archers running backwards while your archers take the oppoturnity given to kill more of his archers. But guarded by rome inf with pila, this can be more risky to that player's cav due to pilum and cav may panick mid way and suffer more casulties while failing to achieving their goal, such cav luring action can been seen in clans games between experience players. But it can be easily avoided by puting the romans inf infront with the archers behind taking the advantage of a roman inf amour against arrows which most people do really, they can also adopted testudo if they wish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
I then massed all my cavalry on one side of the romans and advanced my infantry waiting for opportunities to hit some of their infantry from behind. The idea is to overwhelm your opponent's ability to effectively manage all of his units without you loosing control of your own units. This is why the maneuver aspect of the gameplay and the ability to effectively control all of your units individually is so important because it's the means by which you overcome a combat power deficiency. ...
It would have been easier if Rome suffer the same slowlness as any pike inf might suffer without risk exposing their flanks or rear to archers fire or suden charges in awkward postions with their pike raise. Against a flanking manuvour, players tend to just turn their entire army and refuse flanks. Its easier to do this if you use rome...and its sounds like a good players using a tortise trying to fight a rabbit who have a head start in advantage hopping that the guy would not see it coming. This reminds me of some funny games I played with my clan mates and it seems like a merry go round to us lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
That's why when I saw the speeded up gameplay of RTW and the reduced flexibility of control in the interface I knew that rush tactics with the most powerful units was going to be very difficult or possibly impossible to overcome....
A pike army do have difficulty to overcome rush because its needs to stay in its neat tight formation or risk getting overwhelm. Rushing is more difficult to overcome when you face powerful cav heavy armies with strong flexible infantry supporting them, but a pike rush can be easy to overcome even with strong cavs support. Speed is a problem for pike armies still. But I am not really sure if it is easier to control units in MTW because I always find maintaing a formation while on the move in MTW a pain compared to RTW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
At the time, I never imagined that CA would also drop the combat penalty for stacked units which makes things even worse...
Thats one of the thing that bothers me too, its doesn't seems realistic for man to fight better in a compact manner especially stack pikes and stack cav...but if I look at the bright side, at least they(pikes) are now more vunlerable overlapping attacks and morale penalties.
