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I've been following with interest, though I haven't posted yet, but having read the latest I think it has to be option 2. Proven loyalty is worth the price - especially when the politics are complex and allegiances can can shift. Von Wallenstein's moitives must be suspect, and no sense in risking offence to the Catholic League if there is a good alternative in Buquoy.
Agreed. Wallenstein will not benefit you in the long run. Better build an army now which you can use and trust instead of having to get rid of it in the future.
The Catholic League's support for you is vital to your empire's success. We should not risk incurring needless injuries on the relations. You are already its practical leader, why weaken it for your benefit?
Choice 2. Like Flavius said, loyalty is worth the price.
Yes by far option 2 is the safest way. We need somebody we can count on later when things might become tough.
2) A Belgium General for the Dutch operations! :idea2:
Wallenstein is not as bad as you all may think. He is a genious and he is able to raise abd feed troops out of nothing! But that is exactly what we need in case we get in trouble. So give him respect, maybe more land and a cousin to marry and keep him as reserve.
I agree, no. 2 but still keep Wallenstein happyQuote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
I disagree.Option 1. Do we want to have ourselves a lapdog or a General.We are facing one of the greatest,if not greatest military mind of his time Gustavus Adolphus.What we need is a military genius.Wallenstein.
I say go for Wallenstein as well. Rumours of fraud and a lust for power - sounds like our sort of guy!! hey this is the 30 year's war! Belgium is famous for chocolate not generals.~:cheers:
Chocolate and beer my friend, chocolate and beerQuote:
Originally Posted by King Kurt
and with him under our tutelage, by the time we've finished, generals too! ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr White
How could I overlook Stella Artois - how remiss of me!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr White
They also gave the world the idea of having mayo with chips - a surprisingly good combination.~:cheers:
please don't get me started on the whole french fries thingy. Just because some Americans saw some Walloons ( French speaking Belgians) making fries they thought it was a French invention.
And on the beer thing, Stella is just one of our beers. Try some Leffe or Duvel. Or voted the best beer in the world (but almost impossible to get because it is brewed by monks who only brew enough to live off) West-Vleteren. No offence but until you drink a real Belgian beer and not a normal ale you don't know what good beer is.
Argh, I would have voted for Wallenstein. He was a most gifted general and was really only matched when Sweden entered the war. If the war is going to be as tough as we suspect he would have enough to do than scheme against you.
Mr. White give me a sharp bitter Pilsner anyday over a the overly sweet liquid fruit brews...
A beer is only as good as the taster thinks. Just like truffles, and Beluga kaviar is not tasty to most of us, but some it is.
Very wellm I am convinced, please disregard my vote in the first post, though I'll vote an inconsequential one here for Wallenstein. I suppose we can take the risk, though I suggest keeping a very close eye on him.
What would be the details of the deal? About the extend of Wallenstein's soldiers' "rights?" It might affect the looting and foraging and such.
I would opt for no 1 - Wallenstein, mostly since he is a genious when it comes to recruiting and maintaining large armies. Still I would keep him under controll, constantly.
Another thing - I think that if the previous option is kept in good way i.e. less formal alliance with Poland and some 'real' money for recruitment etc. Sweden can be eliminated from the 30 years war completely, in fact Gustavus Adolphus can never leave its territory dying somewhere ( he was wounded twice, and almost captured twice as well during the war vs. Poland).
The confined, swamp-like ( so called Zulawy in Vistula's mounth were very similar to the Netherlands - in fact Dutch settlers and refugees were living here) area of Royal Prussia can become the grave of the Swedish army.
Without numerous German mercenaries Swedes cannot even dream of winning a decisive battle and by keeping them busy in Germany you can cut offf this source.
BTW Maybe my impression is wrong, but it seems that some of you believe that overwhelming Poland is a question of time.. :no:
Sweden alone cannot even dream of it, in fact very limited victory in the war vs. Poland ( 1625-29) was pretty suprising and came as a result of numerous off-battle reasons including French diplomacy.
Accoring to the Swedish sources I have read Sweden lost more than 40 000 dead during this war comparing to the 50 000 lost during the whole 30-years war ! Of course the seconfd number doesn't possibly include the losses among the German mercenaries, but still it was a hard war and a standstill in military terms. :wall:
Regards Cegorach :book:
P.S. I need someone from Finland to do few easy translations for Pike and Musket mod - any volunteers ?
The spanish experience with the dutch show that is not a good option. LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix has proposed good plans against the dutch but the surprise always jump: because is a slow war, another enemy can attack when we are weakened, and we can lost an effort of years in few days. Don't think that a combined force of imperial and spanish armies can break the dutch resistence, they are of iron, their lines of defence are a very strong combination of rivers, dikes, canals and fortress, and the lost of a few fortress is not important for they, as you see, when Spinola taked Breda it was irrelevant for the war, and Breda was one of the most important fortress!! Another example, when Louis XIV attack to the dutch the french army was defeated because the dutch broke the dikes, and the army of the Sun was by far more powerful than the armies of the TYW . For defeat to the dutch, we need a fleet (for brown water and for blue water), and the spanish are weak in that front (powerful, but they need cover thousand milles of sea, weak in the northern seas)
I can see to Wallestein and Spinola lost their time in a mudy swamp.
The best option is Poland.
A messenger is sent out to Karel Bonaventura Buquoy to offer the position of commander of the imperial forces. Within a week you hear back from the messenger that Buquoy will meet with you by the end of the month.
Meanwhile you receive news from Maximillian that the negations are mixed. The Poles seem open minded yet still they are suspicious of your intentions.
Three weeks latter. Personally going out to greet him you reevaluate your decision. Was this the right general? But in war you can not go back once you’re committed down one path.
You meet with Buquoy the next day. Tilly the commander of the forces of the Catholic league is camped outside the Lower Saxon Circle, an area loyal to Christen IV. Tensions are high and you begain to think the army may be needed soon.
“My Emperor, it is good to see you again, it has been along time since White Mountain”, Buquoy stated, opening the meeting.
“Indeed it has, and now we stand against an alliance of nations determined to pursue our destruction. I need your service as a general, you have served me faithfully before. I pay well; at the end of this you will have new lands and fortunes.”
“Standard terms?”
You pause to think, the standard terms he is talking about is the right to plunder any hostile area once the order for invasion has been issued along with your financial support.
“Yes”, you respond plundering could cut the cost and worst case you can give orders to leave the province untouched.
“Good, I accept, now how many men do you want me to raise”
Now is where you decide your strength. A bigger army would be more powerful yet have more complicated supply issues and upkeep. Were a small army would be much cheaper.
1. Raise 15,000 men a small army which would properly take up around 1/4 of your treasury yearly to raise and pay upkeep.
2. Raise 20,000 men an medium size army which could pose a threat to any germen princes and some national armies. Upkeep would be around 3/8 of your treasury
3. Raise 30,000 men taking up 2/3rds of your treasury. This could pose a large threat to any army if commanded by the right general.
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there are still some problems with that the conversation is nowere near were i wanted it to be, but i couldnt improve it in any other way.
No. 2 seems enough if we pursue a defensive strategy. Then we can fill up with mercenary forces in a matter of a few months if needed, and there's no need to use more money than necessary at this stage. No. 1 is too small IMO, we need regulars too, no. 3 seems a little too much for the treasury, especially as we're already sending money to support the Polish.
If we however choose some offensive operations in the Netherlands no. 3 seems good. The Dutch regions are rich and could possibly give some money in return from plundering, but now that we've decided to let the general and soldiers have everything they can find and plunder, the no. 3 option would mean a severe blow to finances and possibly also remove the possibility of hiring any larger force of mercenaries later. The question then seems to be: 1. should we carry out any operations against the Dutch? and 2. would an offensive against the Dutch with large parts of a 20k man army be enough to achieve any results at all? 3. is our fleet good enough for the type of war that would await in the Netherlands, should we decide to attack? 4. are our forts along the Dutch border strong enough to hold (without too many men) a Dutch counter-offensive if we would be forced to withdraw and face enemies on another front (for example Denmark)?
If it's ok I'll leave the decision on whether I'll choose 2 or 3 until I've found more information about our fleet, the possibilites of an offensive against the Dutch, and whether the others would support my plan. But IMO 15k men is in any case too little.
I would go forr no. 2. 20,000 is a standard sized army for the day, not too small to be overwhelmed and not too large that it will drain your country of all your ressources.
Agreed, with #2 we get both men and keep significant amounts of money. That is important when we don't really know what we will face, or even where we will face it.
I'd second option 2 - at this stage we need to keep some flexibility, and committing more of the treasury would be a risk, but we do need enough of an army to make an impression.
After some consideration I decide to settle with no. 2. Even if we go to war with the Dutch no. 2 is better than no. 3. So there's actually no urgent need for any more information for making this decision.
I agree with the guys above option 2.
Good reasons. Let's follow the path of the Buddha and go with moderation: No.2. Standard and not overwhelming, flexible, but not weak. In cases of danger we can always hire more.
I think this question should not be asked alone. To decide how powerful an army must be we need to know what we are going to do with it, but that seems undecided as yet.
Good arguments!
I go for 1). Keep the army as small as possible. We haven't decided what we need it for. If we attack anyone we will have allies and mercs. What we really need is money! So keep the army as small as possible.
Maybe this war is one by the person who can afford an army at the end!
I am changing the rules so that there is no post limit for deciding which choice to go with so feel free to post even if your not in the first three.
“Around 20,000 men, I want enough funds to hire mercenaries if need be,” You reply.
“A fitting number my lord enough to crush the heretics and finally purify Christianity, with the help of the catholic league.”
“Be worn destroying the heretics will still be difficult at best”
“I am always careful. With your permission my emperor I have other matters to attend to”
“Dismissed”, you answer.
Slowly but surly your army is built over the months. Your treasury takes a large hit as you pay the cost to raise your army, Frustrations in Poland emerge as Maximillian reports that they refuse to form an alliance unless if you personally meet with the polish king.
Rumors surround the country side of France, Mansfeldt, a renowned mercenary captain, is rumored to be raising a army for the English.
Mean while the Danes are trying to rally some of the German Princes in the Lower Saxon circle. A grave thing especially if they succeed.
You now much decide.
1) On the Poles
A. Go your self, You could finally secure the alliance that you feel you need. The only worry is that the nobles might take it as a sign of weakness.
B. Insist on Maximillian finishing the negations, you risk losing the poles cooperation but they could be made to decide.
C. Call Maximillian back and end any negations the price might be too much.
2) On the Germen Princes
A. Outlaw any Germen prince negating with the Danes, It would be harsh but it may be necessary.
B. Demand Denmark stop on threat of war. War will come any way since Christian is the proclaimed champion of Protestantism.
C. Do nothing
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Sorry this one took so long, Real life had kept me busy with the end of semester and all.
1 C Do we really need these upity Poles - they will fight the Swedes anyway, so snub them - that will get them to the table when they need our help. Any way, cash is getting short - better it was spent at home.
2 A Time to whip these minor Princes into shape - let's have a little iron hand in iron glove.~:cheers:
I agree with 1C 2A. 2A might except the reasons mentioned abgove also show the princes that the Danes aren't trustworthy as allies, or alternatively it'll force Denmark to attack us to show they're trustworthy allies. In the former case we score, in the latter case we also score - we don't have to worry too much about Danes in a land war, and hopefully the danish will weaken themselves so much that they won't be back in in a long time. It's a good way of avoiding a coordinated attack between several protestantic countries later, with the Swedish or Danish stepping in to help the other and appear as a savior. 2B - going against the Danes with threat of war - would be an empty threat as they know we can't hurt their heartlands on the islands. Empty threats will just weaken the respect for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kurt
1 C - Can't risk being away negotiating with the Poles while the situation is heating up, need to be at the centre. And if they haven't agreed with Maximillian yet there seems little point in leaving him to continue with the discussions - we don't want people to assume they can just tie up our time with meaningless negotiations - eventually they have to make up their mind.
2 A - Assert our authority over the princes. Either a or b could end up with war against the Danes and princes, (and opting for C would be a complete surrender of authority) but a seems better at reducing the Danes' chance to gain allies.