To be honest I'm very concerned. Anyone read Guns, Germs and Steal?
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To be honest I'm very concerned. Anyone read Guns, Germs and Steal?
Very, very bad idea. First off all, europeans didn`t came in contact with the aztecs until the begining of 16th century, and that is when the game ends. Also, aztec army was much weaker than any european army, so it would be impossible to balance it with other factions.
Vikings discovered America long before spain, but they only discovered greenland and some lands abit further south. They didn`t come in contact with any significant nation. There ships, although they were the best ships in the world at that time, couldn`t establish a constant link with america.
So, discovering of america by the vikings didn`t have any impact on the course of history.
The possibility for colonization of such a distant land came with the invention of a new type of ship, the caravel, and that was in 15th century. So, including aztecs would be a mistake by my humble opinion.
I think in gameplay terms for the battle side of the game it will add a new twist to the game and will make a great challenge to play as the Aztecs who will have no cavalry and no gunpowder weapons so will struggle with the technologically superior forces...
However, on the strategic map I'm curious to see how they intend to fit them in and make them useful, it labels them as a playable faction but I can only realistically see them being used for multiplayer battles anyway. Unless this game is going to be EVEN bigger then we're hoping for...
They weren't labeled as playable faction. There were just listed in list of 21 factions that will surely aprear in M2TW.
They also said that which factions will be playable with be decided later.
Even if they are not playble fro the start, I would think it dosen't take long untill you have a mod that unlock the Aztecs (among others) for single player.
Depends.
If they technicly don't exist as faction until mid of 14th century, then it can make problems.
(look all those how to unlock Romano-British threads for RTW:BI).
Heh, I come back to the org and look what I find! The peoples' general attitude regarding realism/gameplay/involvement etc. has not changed. I don't see any reason why this is a bad idea. It isn't inaccurate, it isn't a definite sign that the game will be inaccurate, and this feature can only mean added fun, enjoyment and extra life to the game.
It's a shame that many of the most hardcore total war fans still do not really understand what the game is about; the games in the total war series are about changing history, not about following strict historical rules. I wholeheartedly agree with Kraxis here, why does Columbus have to go to the Caribbean in 1492? Someone could arrive a lot earlier and a huge colonial warfare system could develop long before the end of the campaign. I think this feature will add huge new areas to the later stages of the campaign when it will be boring, just about huge powers fighting for control. In fact, I may will even look into modding the game to extend this feature even wider. Colonisation is one of the things I have always wanted to do in a Total War game, and I am not just talking about creating huge mediterrannean empires with the Italians.
I have to admit though that I am quite worried that CA will not pull it off properly (but that's only because I am looking forwards to this feature). But then again, they are CA and they have done things more quality-important than this before.
the aztecs should work hopefully i really want to play them because i want to know more info about them and stuff.
Discovering the America's may be useful for rejuvenating interest in the late campaign.
I don't think making the Aztecs playable would work, unless it was only as a mini-campaign.
Books are quite helpful... :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by littlegannon
It's all about making games educational nowadays.
Yes, I can already next type of games CA is going to make: Total Algebra :laugh4: . Including a faction in the game just because samoone want to know more about them is really stupid, expecially when you can find more data about aztecs on the internet within a few minutes. I`m really interested in the history of eskimos but doesn`t mean I want eskimos as a faction in mtw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craterus
Don't you think it may be the case that they were added too make MTW II different from MTW? Personally I don't like the idea
......Orda
Of course then we'll all be arguing what fractions to include...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Brilliant. :medievalcheers: :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by lanky316
The idea that aztecs could stand up to European technology is very ahistorical. Not only were the Americans totally outclassed technologically, Eurasian diseases devastated them. It was a completely unbalanced conflict.
The idea of having a campaign in mexico with american factions could totaly work however. The Spanish could maybe be like a mongol horde but it still wouldn't be too historical since they would have to be balanced. It totally depends how they do it, CA could pull it off well.
Well, I am not sure if they will impliment it well or not but when you get down to it...
The game is from 1080-1530.
Columbus "discovered" the Americas in 1492 (possibly 1485).
The Spainish had conquored the Aztech by 1522.
Therefore the conquest of the Aztech by a european faction within the (late)time period of the game is entriely historically correct...
While all manner of other places were "discovered" during this time, they were not conquored and would not really be part of the Total War concept...
It is all in the excution, how they make it work will determine whether it is cool or not...
And rather than build churches you build human sacrifice temples, with little cut scenes of hearts being ripped out from living sacrifices.
Sounds tremendous
We should remember that "world maps" in the 1400's were mostly based on nautical observation, and 2nd century AD speculation. The globe was thought to be only 3-quarters the size we in the 21st century know it is. The Indian Ocean was described as an 'inland sea'.
Columbus pitched (to the Portugese, then the Spanish) the idea that Japan was a mere 2,400 miles WEST of Spain, and that he could, therefore arrive in India MUCH sooner, and with less peril, than caravels that had to round the Horn of Africa. The caveat being that he would possibly be out of sight of land for several days.
To implement the New World in Medieval2, with the 1400's mindset, NOT our 2006 satellite-imaged minset, CA merely needs to offset 'False India' (nowadays known as Carib/Mexico) a couple of sea provinces west of Lisbon.
To me, it's not that huge a mental leap, especially considering how in MTW1, you could travel overland, on foot, over unimproved medieval "roads" from Kiev to Moscow in 3-4 years.
And as people above have pointed out: why wait 'til Columbus and 1492? The Portugese were probing/exploring in the 14-teens.
I'm 100% against american indians being included for the obvious reason that about a half of the European states will most probably be ommited from the game.
Sorry, Czechian mates, Norwegians, Serbians, Swedes, Lithuanians, Bulgarians, Romanians etc, but your nations' territories, territories upon which your states existed in this period will be "controlled by rebels" in this game. But hey, cheer up - you get to play with the Aztecs!!!
IMO - trading the first Slavic christian civilisation, which brought Byzantium's cultural achievements and christianity to the slavic world, for ... the Aztecs can only be classified as cynical.
I used Bulgaria just as an example. Your nations by no means less important or anything.
Aztecs would seem like a hilarious choice. I mean, how would you expect realisticly barbarians, armed with flint tipped clubs, almost naked, to fare against steel swords, armour and gunpowder??:dizzy2: :dizzy2: :dizzy2:
Besides, the aztecs would be a super boring put off for the game, and including them in the main campaign would probably ruin it. Mini-campaign, ok (doesnt mean ill be playing it), but please keep them out of the game.
By using arrows and outnumbering the guys with steel swords, armor and gunpowder by about 1,000 to 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibn Munqidh
By all indications, the capital of the Aztecs was one of the largest, possibly the largest, city in the world when the Spanish found it.
Come on, folks. The history of what happened is available in any library. Cortez' small army with their steel swords, armor gunpowder and horses — somebody should mention horses — barely escaped the Aztecs at one point. Cortez only lived because the Aztec emperor gave orders that he be taken alive. Aztec warriors had him trapped at one point and would have killed him, but he managed to slip away and escape by running over the bodies of native allies, which had conveniently filled a ditch.
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As I understand the game from summaries of interviews with developers, you have to make a definite decision to research the appropriate techs to get across the ocean. Then you have to make the decision to cross the ocean, too.
So if you want to build buildings to research techs like artillery, for instance, instead of ports to research navigation, do so. If you want to stop other factions from crossing the seas and getting the gold, beat them in the 200 years we'll have before the Americas can possibly be discoveredd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti-hero
This is probably the best argument yet against the Aztecs. However, I'd have to argue that the vast wealth obtained from the Americas still justifies including them over other European possibilities. That vast wealth wasn't just gold and silver looted from the Americas, but tobacco and other trade items, which will be included in the game according to developer interviews.
Yeah, that is the best argument against the Aztecs have heard til yetQuote:
Originally Posted by Anti-hero
I think it is pretty well the only decent argument you could have against the Aztecs. As I said before, there is no reason not to include the aztecs except that you could say the manpower could be better spent (I don't believe this is true anyway, I love the idea of travelling to America)
Besides, with the extra faction slots that have been mentioned in another thread will mean that most of the factions in that list will probably be modded in anyway pretty soon after release, so if your home nation got left out its nothing to worry about really (except that you might have to wait a while)
It's nice to see people supporting my point. Even if just by recognising it as the best argument against the Aztecs.
On second thought, maybe the inclusion of the Aztecs can be best seen as another evidence that CA is focusing the game (for a second time) on Western European factions. Also, it gets really hard to depict Europe in the 16th century without mentionig America in one way or another.
So, you see - there are also pro-Aztec ponits. It's just very unfortunate that, once again, the proper depicting of West Europe will happen at the expense of East Europe.
As the saying goes - whoever pays for the show, decides the songs played. We're a weaker market. So we'll have to mod our way into East Europe looking like it should. That's the bitter truth as I see it. :(
I can’t wait for the Aztecs.
The “discovery” (like it was lost and needed finding but that is history written by the white European for the white European) of the “Americas” was the most important thing to ever happen to the Europeans. It gave them a brave new world to conquer and extinguish other civilizations in the name of trade, cultural achievements and Christian determinisms.
Go west young man. For it is there that you will find your destiny. This game does not include the American Aboriginals (Indians) but only the Central American Aboriginal Civilizations. Notice I use civilization because that is what they were, a very advanced culture no different than the eastern Europeans.
CA can not include all of the societies and important achievements, but only give an “overview” of them. The Aztecs were not the only Aboriginal culture in the Americas encountered by the Spanish as the Bulgarians are not the only eastern culture in Eastern Europe. At the beginning of the 16th century the discovery of the Americas would change the eastern world forever. I believe that is CA’s point. The great civilizations of Europe would clash for the riches and land of the Americas over the next hundreds of years ending the medieval age. The renaissance was the great re-working of man and his place in the world.
Welcome the new world with open arms for it is your destiny written by you for you. And if you don’t like it rewrite it!
The idea that the Aztecs/Mexica will take a slot the Serbs or other could possibly have, is not certain. The next game could allow possible 200 factions. I think it gives the game something of a Civ 4 tech race to see who can reach the Americas first. I would certainly love to see how Tenochtitlan will be depicted. I wonder how many factions will be able to play on the Americas map. This map will provide a ready made surface for the first American themed mods.
That is an excellent point ready made for further n american developement...eventually the mankind mod of the whole world!
Aztecs have no place in the Medieval world. The date that changed the Middle ages was 1453 (according to some scientists the Ottoman Turks forced European monarchs to look for a new route to the East) or 1492-1493 (when Columbus discovered America). After these dates the Medieval world was not Medieval anymore- the society, the economy and the policy were very different from what they used to be. But when there is the year 1530 the Aztecs should be there but not in the SP campaign (only in a separate campaign). Otherwise... well, I don't want to think about it...