Elephants: Balanced or not?

Er...I think we are all kind of deviating from the original intent of the post.

Wether or not elephants would or would not obey their masters or if they really would "run amok" is for another thread perhaps?

The original reason for the topic is about the Elephants current state in EB, and wether or not they are too weak etc etc.

It would be more helpful I think, that if you think they are currently correct in EB as it stands that you say so and your reasons why you think they are right.

But if you think they are represented incorrectly in game at the moment, state your reasons why and a possible solution/suggestion.

Obviously I have no power to enforce that you keep the thread "on topic", i only appeal that you do so, as i'm sure the EB team will take more notice and find it easier to gauge what most people think by keeping it constructive.

After all we all want a good game no?

Here was my suggestion for change from earlier:

Normal Elephants (unarmoured)- Have the correct stats, however their upkeep cost seems to be a bit exaggerated, as the cost of housing and feeding them would not be that great (how much did a bale of hay cost in ancient times?), and only their handlers would require any pay from the army.
Their recruitment cost seems to be right though, I can't imagine they were all that common.

Armoured Elephants- Stats seem to indicate they are not correct, as it would be almost impossible to penetrate the armour even with a well aimed javelin (in my opinion. look at well armoured troops ingame). Upkeep and recruitment costs could do with a little rise (cost of armour etc etc), to balance things out should the EB team decide to implement these suggestions in game.


Please discuss, and pick apart my suggestions if you believe they are not valid. But remember to add your own suggestions so that the next person to post can pick them apart and add his/her own suggestions and so on and so forth.

If we keep to this we may all come to the right conclusion in the end, without having to trawl through all the "this idea sucks!"replies.

Cheers

I think that even the unarmoured elephants are a little to weak- IIRC they don't have any armour at all right? That would mean that a 4hp elephant gets killed by 4 well placed arrows. Elephants have pretty thick skin - sensitive though, wich is why elephants would panick after being showered with projectiles - that would protect them from serious injury from arrows. Javelins would be better.

It's worth remembering though, that the Seleucids only used their elephants as an anti-cavalry screen at their flanks. The prevalence of skirmishers in the east probably would have had something to do with this.

I actually like elephants as represented in the vanilla game. I want them to be combat monsters that give you fits. Even as such, there are relatively easy ways to deal with them (e.g. let them chase a skirmisher to the edge of the map, effectively neutralising them for much of the battle). I think they should be rare and expensive as they are now, but tough enough in the game to justify that cost.

It probably does not matter too much to the human - maybe they can use them well enough to avoid missiles etc - but elephants under the AI will just die too easily if you make them very vulnerable to missiles (a human will make them an "all tubes" target) and that will be anti-climatic.

I realise this is a subjective gameplay point of view, not one based on history. But my sense of history is that elephants often made an impression on enemy generals as a problem unit to square up to, regardless of how they actually performed in battle.

We need threats from the AI - gestatae, hetairoi etc are the kind of units that make the battles fun and sometimes scarey. Elephants should join them.

I agree Simon. I think they should be beefed up though. I don't know all the elephant types but armoured should be considerably stronger. Someone posted earlier that Javelins should'nt be able to penetrate the armour so easily and i agree. Wen i battle Phyrrosand his (Indian?) elephants i get scared for a minute drop a volley maybe two and they're dead or routing. Elephants should be rampaging thoruogh my lines. (well i'd rather not have it off course~;) ) It seems it only depents if you have javelineers or not which is i find odd. Could you not give armoured elephants the 'frighten skirmishers' trait or something?
So you're skirmishers can take 'um out but also rout easier.
On hp it is now 4 and was 15 in original RTW maybe 8?

grtz kod

I got a ton of great usage from Pyrrhos' start elephants. They are terrific for smashing up Mak phalangitai if there are no skirmishers around. I keep them in the back if there are some of those present and just let their archers shoot. I finally lost them in an ambush where I destroyed a huge makedonian army with only a few units - but those elephants did their job up until they finally got caught up by a skirmisher unit that my general had routed - and then it recovered itself and I didn't notice it (fighting in forests).

So I guess I'd be for giving them just a little better hp, but not much better.

I totally agree Teleklos (for unarmoured elephants), apart from the fact that javelins should not be able to pierce armour so easily.

If you look at the rest of the armoured troops in game, they are not vunerable at all to javelins really. (don't even get me started on the naked guys who have no armour, yet are still unaffected by 200 javelins, each 3.5 feet long, being thrown into their midst :0). Being on drugs doesn't stop sharp things from piercing naked flesh! )

So...common sense would suggest that armoured elephants should get the same (if not more) benefits/protection as armoured troops, as they are both wearing armour.

If you don't agree with the above statement, then you at least have to admit that a rampaging behemoth, that is 10ft tall and weighs in at 2/3 tonnes (add an extra 1/2 tonne for armour) and runs about 40mp/h (EDIT-40kp/h for sheep) stands a better chance at surviving a javelin than a naked, ramapaging, drug addict, that weighs in at about 14 stonnes and runs about 20mph? (not even in a straight line he is so wacked)

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Originally Posted by Megalos

If you look at the rest of the armoured troops in game, they are not vunerable at all to javelins really.

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This may be true, but if so, it seems more worrying than the fragility of the pachyderms. I would have thought javelins were nasty weapons, regardless of armour. I've heard they could pierce almost all armour. Indeed, light infantry might even be better at handling javelin fire because they can dodge and weave to avoid them (javelins are slow, but have great penetration). Yes, a big heavy shield might protect you, but often that would be end of the shield - or at least, that was the intent of the pila - and given that the game can't represent that, some direct casualties would seem to be warranted. But, I don't want to drag this off-topic.

Intuitively, lots of javelin armed skirmishers do seem a reasonable response to elephants. It's just that in the game, it is anti-climactic.

I don't think the elephants should get extra hp. Elephanting in melee is now balanced I think, and that would screw it up. Rather, some of their defense skill should be changed into armour (their "natural armour", thick skin). Result: performance in combat is uneffected, but the little monsters are now less vulnerable to missiles.

After checking in custom battle: 2 Elephant units - Indian and armoured indian were killed by 1 unit of basic HA on flat groud, almost without losses. It doesnt seem to be right.

I would agree that Elephants seems useless in EB.
They can even be easily killed by Arkontisais, peasants without much trainning. As there are always a lot of javelins in each army, there is no way to use them. I know that it is intended that javelins should be used against elefants, but historicaly I don´t think that peasants can wipe them out so easily as in EB.

Well, it's incorrect to say "there is no way to use them" as I have used them to great effect against infantry - you just have to keep them away from quick skirmishers with ranged weapons. Still I agree that there should be some changes in their stats.

Playing as Epirhotes i sold my arm and leg to keep them in my army.
And they where winning battle afther battle afther battle.
Incredibly strong unit. But you cant just shout charge and hope elaphants will win the day singlehanded.
But i to agree that they stats should be altered A LITTLE.

Just a quick thought...what would the effect be, if you took the "bonus vs elephants" attribute away from skirmishers?

If this made the balance between elephants and skirmishers even, then there would be no need to adjust any stats, thus leaving the balance that is already there between infantry and elephants untouched.

Even if it's not balanced at first when you do this, you could go on to give missile troops negative effects vs elephants until the right balance was there....

Just a thought anyway...

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Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX

You've made this argument before, it's disputed by a ton of military historians as well as plenty of ancient sources in a lot of contexts, and frankly I don't buy it. Animals aren't machines, despite the ideas you put forward in your car analogy.

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Now,with qwerty's suggestion as to our anologies he believes we make, we will pit the two "machines" together in a royal rumble

Car vs. Forest elephant

http://www.break.com/index/elephantattack.html

Good stuff :laugh4:

Also, elephants should be giving the modifier "Causes fear to restaurant owners"

http://www.break.com/index/elephant1.html

and now imagine what that would be like when all thats between you and the elephant is a shield and an pointy stick

the discipline potential of elephants..

http://www.break.com/index/coolelephant1.html

and when they run amok..

http://www.break.com/index/madelephant.html

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Originally Posted by O'ETAIPOS

After checking in custom battle: 2 Elephant units - Indian and armoured indian were killed by 1 unit of basic HA on flat groud, almost without losses. It doesnt seem to be right.

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Well that is a very inaccurate test. You can not hope to defeat any unit single-handedly with just the mear pressence of Elephants. That was what was so backwards about the power of Vanilla elephants. Just as in history, Elephants do not make an army. Hannibal used Elephants to probably the greatest effect of any general in history. And he did it on the knowledge that they were simply an excellent, horrific addition to his already excellent army.

Elephants in EB, just as in history, need to be supported by a variety of troops. And depending on who you are fighting, and with what units, you have to protect them, and possibly even prevent them from entering such dangerous battles, again just as in history.

Overall, I am happy they are not the tanks they were in Vanilla (although I played Carthage a lot and LOVED their tankness). However I do feel they are somewhat underpowered. As much as I have used them to effect, I still believe they are either a couple hit points off, or are completely overpowered by 200 men units of scirmishers. I believe they need to be adjusted.

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Originally Posted by O'ETAIPOS

After checking in custom battle: 2 Elephant units - Indian and armoured indian were killed by 1 unit of basic HA on flat groud, almost without losses. It doesnt seem to be right.

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Not at all. The point of horse archers were to stay away from slow things, and elephants are slow. Horse archers are the best way to kill elephants.

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Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

Not at all. The point of horse archers were to stay away from slow things, and elephants are slow. Horse archers are the best way to kill elephants.

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But the ele has tower with archers. I was standing still with HA and elephants were aproaching. Routed about 30 metres from my men, rest killed in rout. I needed 2-3 HA's to fight "nudists" on the other hand.

I was quite sure my HA's will win, but killing 2 units of ele (one armoured) loosing 2-3 men without avoid tactic (cant. circle) seems strange. And if you compare costs ...

I ALREADY MADE THEM TOUGHER! IN THE NEXT PATCH THEY WILL BE STRONGER!

:laugh4: :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by O'ETAIPOS

try to beat or starve elephant - he will simply kill you!

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In India, wild elephants captured to serve and help foresters in their chores were, captured before they reached adulthood, bound to a tree and forcefully put into an unconfortable position (one leg up) and sleep deprived (20 villagers shouting all night long, all month long) and starved until they are broken into submission. From here on, the training could begin.

Broken is the key word here.
The images were hard, I have the image of an elephant crying and moaning burned deep within my mind.
What's why I interrupted too.

seen on some -12 rated documentary shot in the late 90s on French learning TV La Cinquieme (probably bought from TLC or the like)

Please, let the poor Hannibal rest in peace when it comes to elephants. He was a great general but had little time to use elephants. Contrary to some belief none of his elephants died during the crossing of the alps. They died exept one (Surus, the Indian) after the battle at the Trebia because of the cold winter and perhaps exhaustion. At Zama Hannibal had to use 80 recently captured and very illtrained forest elephants; they killed a lot of Roman soldiers but were finally beaten by Scipios cunning preparations.

The true elephant users were others, the Indian kings, the Successors, esp. the Seleucids, Pyrrhos, sometimes the Romans (!), the Sassanids, the Mughals etc.. Some big battles were decided by elephants, sometimes they failed totally.

I'm also of the opinion that elephants are not so well depicted in EB now. They are much to weak. It is indeed very difficult to kill an elephant with small missiles. So the elephant losses were minimal on the fields. Elephants however can be scared by the pain they receive if hit by missiles. Either they flee or run amok. The more they were trained and had trust and a good connection to the mahout the better they could stand the pain and horror of the battles. The hp should be raised therefore.

Armoured elephants should be much harder to kill even.


Some additional remarks in no special order:
1. I never heard of the use of bush elephants for warfare. Do you have a source for this? I think only African forest elephants and Indian elephants should be in the game.
2. Playing as Ptolemaioi I could recruit elephants in Meroe. At least the description of the build MIC says that. But the unit does not appear in the towns unit roster and so is not recruitable. What is to do?
3. It's a pity that Epeiros cannot longer recruit armored Indian elephants. I would like to insult you therefore but unfortunately you are right in doing this, because Pyrrhos seems to have used unarmored ones and the crazy plan to breed a herd in Epeiros of course never succeeded. The only successful breed ever seemed to be the later Roman herd of African forest elephants (even today breeding of elephants in Europe is extremely difficult).
4. I saw that close combat cavalry with + factors against elephants exists in EB. That is not very realistic because horses are frightened by elephants and even well trained horses were easily killed by elephants if they dared to come close.

Are EB members all of those who have that nice EB-marked picture where says EB Member?:inquisitive:
If so, How is it posible that you do not agree on such important thing,

I was so afraid of that elephant of Pyrros at my Pela:ahh: , but than I almost by chace killed them all in just two-spear drops by ONE! of my javelinman unit..I mean w..what?!?


And let me add that Europeism in history will not bring any solutions to debates like this one.. If there were some of our Asian friends here (that now about history of warfare) -- they would say somthing smarter, but here am I and I will say what I know - shortly.

Elephants in India and SE Asia were ridden before horses (not literaly) in Europe, and by the time horses were used by nomads to rundown Roman Empire -- Elephants were drinking tea i China (:clown: )... Besides, elephants were are even in some battles of today in rebel states of Indian peninsula, and in 18 and 19 century -- they were able to whitstand some serious gunpower before they would fall...:juggle2:

I san not belive that one of my javelin unit can beat elephants so easy:no:

Anyway, + 1 hp for elephants would do great

be well my friends!

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Originally Posted by Megalos

I totally agree Teleklos (for unarmoured elephants), apart from the fact that javelins should not be able to pierce armour so easily.

If you look at the rest of the armoured troops in game, they are not vunerable at all to javelins really. (don't even get me started on the naked guys who have no armour, yet are still unaffected by 200 javelins, each 3.5 feet long, being thrown into their midst :0). Being on drugs doesn't stop sharp things from piercing naked flesh! )

So...common sense would suggest that armoured elephants should get the same (if not more) benefits/protection as armoured troops, as they are both wearing armour.

If you don't agree with the above statement, then you at least have to admit that a rampaging behemoth, that is 10ft tall and weighs in at 2/3 tonnes (add an extra 1/2 tonne for armour) and runs about 40mph stands a better chance at surviving a javelin than a naked, ramapaging, drug addict, that weighs in at about 14 stonnes and runs about 20mph? (not even in a straight line he is so wacked)

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Maybe the skirmishers aim for the riders, not the elephants themselves - it's not like the guy can move from where he's sitting... :beam:

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Originally Posted by blank

Maybe the skirmishers aim for the riders, not the elephants themselves - it's not like the guy can move from where he's sitting... :beam:

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Very true. However, I wrote that well over a year ago, and was not as clued up in regards to the game engine limitations. ~;p

What bothers me is that my best weapon against eleohants has previously been slingers. Haven't tried it in 1.0 though. When playing the Macs, Epirus always attacked Pella with her elephants, but one unit of slingers always cut them down with three to four volleys. Maybe now it's a little different...

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Originally Posted by Megalos

If you don't agree with the above statement, then you at least have to admit that a rampaging behemoth, that is 10ft tall and weighs in at 2/3 tonnes (add an extra 1/2 tonne for armour) and runs about 40mph

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What planet do you come from where elephants run 40mph?

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Originally Posted by Sheep

What planet do you come from where elephants run 40mph?

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Downhill with a head wind perphaps?