“Cheers!” Ziveli!:laugh4:
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“Cheers!” Ziveli!:laugh4:
Yes, but it was Milosevic who started it all, yadda, yadda... That kind of talk only serves to distract from the point, it being that Milosevic was tried as an individual, as he should have been, and it would have been nice if he lived to be sentenced for what he, as an individual, did.Quote:
As Tudjan said once…
“Milosevic who started it all, yadda, yadda”: Can be discussed if you want. Don’t think that the military bases attacks were started by Milosevic, nor the smuggling of weapons… One wrong don’t make the other wrong better…
Do tell, I am always interested by your first hand accounts of what went on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
if there are all these arguments and misconceptions then mabey he is not so tyranical as they say:martass:
Exactly, and that's why they should be discussed separately. Otherwise it's just a smoke screen to distract from the point of what deed(s) he really did do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
If I were to say now that nobody did anything before Milosevic started to rouse the people up in Kosovo meetings in the late 1980s, we would not be talking about the issue at hand, but instead we would be squabbling endlessly and basically not moving on (and this is one of the important causes for continuing tensions - that's why it would have been good if he got his verdict, to close that page in history for his victims). Furthermore, we would be sliding towards the dangerous area of mass guilt as opposed to the individual one. This sort of poking at each other could go on and on without any real purpose, save that nobody reading it would actually think about Milosevic's crimes any more.
“nobody did anything before Milosevic started to rouse the people up in Kosovo meetings in the late 1980s” Well, except that the Albanians were on the path for up-raising, because they wanted their independence. We can say, of course that Milosevic, from good communist became good nationalist. But to say he started it, no. He jumped on the train and used id.
“Furthermore, we would be sliding towards the dangerous area of mass guilt as opposed to the individual one” I agree with that. However, there is an actual procedure from Bosnia against Serbia where Bosnia wants Serbia responsible for the aggression (say the war) and the “genocide”. Nothing said about the Croatian-Bosnian War, and the Bosnian versus Bosnian (Abic vs Izetbogovic). To held Serbia responsible is an attempt from individual to mass guilt.
“This sort of poking at each other could go on” And it will until real justice for all victims will be done. That is why I was in favour to judge Milosevic in Serbia. Because at the end of the day, his victims were in majority Serbs, Serbs expelled from Croatia, Serbs expelled from Kosovo, from Bosnia, bombed and isolated by 10 years blockade.
It could have been done with Croats and Bosnian witnesses. I don’t think that Kostinica nor Draskovic have love for him. He tried to kill the last one, like he killed his allies Arkan and Stombolic.
Because they died before, the other two procedures never started. So, who should have been found guilty: the only one still alive: Milosevic. Unfortunately, he died. He is out of reach, like the two others.
It will be up to historians to debate now. But politic and media made their choice.
I am sad that Milosevic died. I was curious what he had to say, but also what the prosecutor had to say. Because I watched the beginning of the procedure, and let me tell you it was absolutely crap. Milosevic was in command, and you could see the face of Carla Del Ponte (even if the case was built by Louise Arbor). That is why it took so much time. They had to restart all.
And now, pfuff, no more. After the suicide of Babic, now the death of Milocevic, it will be very difficult to convince Karadic and Mladic to surrender, don’t you think so?
So, I agree basically of what you said. But still, the crimes, all the crimes won’t be investigated. That a shame.
“nobody did anything before Milosevic started to rouse the people up in Kosovo meetings in the late 1980s” Well, except that the Albanians were on the path for up-raising, because they wanted their independence. We can say, of course that Milosevic, from good communist became good nationalist. But to say he started it, no. He jumped on the train and used id.
“Furthermore, we would be sliding towards the dangerous area of mass guilt as opposed to the individual one” I agree with that. However, there is an actual procedure from Bosnia against Serbia where Bosnia wants Serbia responsible for the aggression (say the war) and the “genocide”. Nothing said about the Croatian-Bosnian War, and the Bosnian versus Bosnian (Abic vs Izetbogovic). To held Serbia responsible is an attempt from individual to mass guilt.
“This sort of poking at each other could go on” And it will until real justice for all victims will be done. That is why I was in favour to judge Milosevic in Serbia. Because at the end of the day, his victims were in majority Serbs, Serbs expelled from Croatia, Serbs expelled from Kosovo, from Bosnia, bombed and isolated by 10 years blockade.
It could have been done with Croats and Bosnian witnesses. I don’t think that Kostinica nor Draskovic have love for him. He tried to kill the last one, like he killed his allies Arkan and Stombolic.
Because they died before, the other two procedures never started. So, who should have been found guilty: the only one still alive: Milosevic. Unfortunately, he died. He is out of reach, like the two others.
It will be up to historians to debate now. But politic and media made their choice.
I am sad that Milosevic died. I was curious what he had to say, but also what the prosecutor had to say. Because I watched the beginning of the procedure, and let me tell you it was absolutely crap. Milosevic was in command, and you could see the face of Carla Del Ponte (even if the case was built by Louise Arbor). That is why it took so much time. They had to restart all.
And now, pfuff, no more. After the suicide of Babic, now the death of Milocevic, it will be very difficult to convince Karadic and Mladic to surrender, don’t you think so?
So, I agree basically of what you said. But still, the crimes, all the crimes won’t be investigated. That is a shame.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrvojej
Was that a mistake or abysmally bad argumentative style?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Damn time the U.N. killed that idiot. Can't believe anyone would defend that b*****ds life, swear i'd like to see someone defend Sadam Hussiens life. Nothing like justifying dictators actions to start your sunday morning.
He was a mass murderer. I'de hate to see your community if mass murderers are considered good men.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
In the words of a great man i know...
"Milosevich died last Friday and i had no idea....Shows how much i care"
Exactly. However, the argument that some crimes are excusable or justified because of other crimes was on minds and lips of many of the sickos who ended up ordering or committing the atrocities. Making crimes relative to other crimes only makes them look less terrible. And that's why such deeds should not be compared to each other, but rather viewed for what they were, and not how they compare on an imaginary scale of inhumanity. It sucks that he died before the verdict was reached, since his verdict would potentially help many to get over such circular arguments and leave the past where it belongs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus