Accurate city maps

I've no idea where we could find something like plans for steppe villages, but if you'd like to try some of those as being simpler at first, the regular houses might be replaced by things like the yurts I mentioned. I would recommend taking a look at this absolutely amazing photo gallery here: http://www.reportages-pictures.com/Mongolia.htm

Some galleries in it are better than others, but many are superb and they can give you some ideas. I'll get our steppe guys to post any ideas they might have here for you.

Hi, that site is indeed very good. I will add a few more images on the general disposition nonetheless and such, nonetheless.
https://img449.imageshack.us/img449/...camp1kx.th.jpghttps://img449.imageshack.us/img449/...amp24sq.th.jpghttps://img117.imageshack.us/img117/...00036pz.th.jpg

And now some suggestions/requests. I will sort of go wild with them, I warn you. You just trim them down to what you find reasonable...

It seems that in the period in question our nomads used tents set on the ground, but also, perhaps even more commonly, tents mounted directly on top of wagons pulled by one up to four pairs of oxen (depending on tent size). It would be, very, very nice if you could mix in the camp the fixed and "mobile" tents and more than one size of either. Below there's a toy model of one of the mobile tents.
https://img457.imageshack.us/img457/...gon16tv.th.jpg
Of course the proportions are badly distorted in that model. Basically, the frame seen in the back of the wagon, would support a smallish tent, otherwise similar to the fixed ones. For the overall size of the thing, think something roughly like the wagons in westerns. The wagon's body wuld be made of wickerwork, if that sort of information is needed...

Now, in our period there seems to have been slightly different tents designs in use in different areas of the steppe. In the eastern portions the flat-topped kind you'd see in most pictures would have been prevalent, but in the west there is evidence for something more "conical" as shown in the pic below. btw, the "thin line" is a long cavalry lance leaning on the tent. It would be a very nice detail to put some of those...
https://img325.imageshack.us/img325/...ent23de.th.jpg
I don't know if it is possible to have an "eastern" and "western" nomad village. That would be terrific. If not, then I'd suggest mixing the two tent designs.

Thank you.

We have at least one member (eadingas) who would be absolutely ecstatic to work with you, giving you detailed information about city plans for you to implement.

Again, if you have the skill and desire to do this, it is definitely something that we lack and would make a very real difference to our team.

Angadil-

The first picture you posted is very unclear. It looks like a stable/holding pen for live stock. Stone wall.

Im sorry but im not really sure what youre describing with your mobile tent and the toy doesnt help at all. If you could draw a quick sketch that would be very much better.

To my knowledge of settlement plans, each culture can have only one settlement plan for each level of city. This is a limitation you should keep in mind. For each plan i make, i must remove a vanilla plan. Remember that cultures span across factions which could lead to potentially unwanted results depending on which factions you have assigned to each culture.

My other limitation is that because we cannot yet edit the .bpi files for buildings we cannot create collision data for new buildings. This means i need to use already existing collision data from stock buildings. This may or may not limit me in the way of modelling.

For a map of the settlement i dont want an actual historical map. I just want a quick sketch of how you would like the settlement to be laid out.

The nice thing is that we will have a totally separate culture for a nomadic steppe faction - so you don't have to worry about messing up another culture's buildings or town layouts.

There should be a lot of spacing in these - as much as possible without causing any problems. I don't know if that is achieved with really really wide paths through the middle of the settlement or by having the buildings just really far apart, but we need lots of room for horse movement and no real places where someone could set up traps in narrow streets. We really just need three levels of towns for this culture, though maybe we could reserve the fourth level for some regular settlement buildings to be added for a certain type of population. I'd suggest keeping levels 1, 2, and 3 very spread out and with huge paths to the middle of the town.

We can also reduce the number of buildings overall for this culture type - as there are not as many people in each town. So cutting down on the number of structures is fine. If a layout is required, I've taken a large town layout for the eastern vanilla culture, and put down more roads on top of the current ones (blue), and even widened some of them (purple). So big roads are important, and many. And the houses being spread out (black dots?) are fine. Even like this, it's too cramped, but this at least expresses some of the changes we would like to make I think.
https://img460.imageshack.us/img460/...ppe19ig.th.jpg

edit: For reference, so I don't need to collect these images again, here are some of modern day nomadic layout of yurts in some nomadic communities:

http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...es/ppage38.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...es/ppage33.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...es/ppage74.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...es/ppage75.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...es/ppage14.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...es/ppage15.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...ges/ppage2.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...ges/ppage3.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...es/ppage44.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...es/ppage51.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...es/ppage72.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...s/ppage103.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...ges/ppage1.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...es/ppage29.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...es/ppage34.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/M...ges/ppage3.htm
(last one more a pastoralism settlement)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shifty157

Angadil-

The first picture you posted is very unclear. It looks like a stable/holding pen for live stock. Stone wall.

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Well, that's what it is. What I was trying to show is that a few tents tend to be clustered around a holding pen and that a whole village is formed by aggregating several of this basic subunit. I hope this may be clearer in the pic below.
https://img333.imageshack.us/img333/...amp31jt.th.jpg

Quote:

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Im sorry but im not really sure what youre describing with your mobile tent and the toy doesnt help at all. If you could draw a quick sketch that would be very much better.

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I'm totally helpless when it comes to drawing, sorry... But it be something roughly like this:
https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/...camp6zd.th.jpg
Of course the tent itself n would not be like that, but quite similar to the "non-wagon" ones. I hope this other pic also helps me to explain.
https://img333.imageshack.us/img333/...tent8pb.th.jpg
Of course, this is a monster, we'd be speaking of something 1-2 pairs of oxen would pull. I hope that now it will be easier to see what the toy represents? It's not that different from a wagon from a western movie with a tent in its rear half.

Hope this helps?

A quick yurt i put up in the game. As you can see i am not a very good skinner. Regardless. Tomorrow ill start laying out the actual settlement consisting mostly of these yurts for now. Ill model the other type of yurt as well. And ill take a stab at the wagon-yurt at some point. But this all i managed to do today.

https://img157.imageshack.us/img157/9796/yurt019gj.jpg

I think a "yay!" is called for :2thumbsup:

shifty - that is already very sweet! Seriously. If we can get that and a few other random things you saw from around the camp, easy stuff only though - nothing too intricate - we can make a huge difference in the believability of the surroundings for these factions.

The sweetest thing is that they are so simple. These yurts aren't that complex, their temples are just mounds really with a stone pillar or two or some rocks arranged on them, maybe a few fences - or low stone walls which already can be found in other parts of the game. These sort of things would make all the difference in the world. Thanks again for helping on this!!

That's really cool. I am glad the EB team has found someone to do this for them. After the new steppe villages are complete will you work on other buildings?

This is excellent, IMO.:2thumbsup: And if the current straw-roof structure was substituted by some sort of holding pen for livestock, I think it would be even better.

Thank you, shifty!

Very nice work Shifty, you have my thanks as well.

Thank you everyone. But ive barely even scratched the surface. Ill be cheering with you when ive finished up the first settlement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tk-421

After the new steppe villages are complete will you work on other buildings?

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I probably will. I figured this would be a perfect place to start because it isnt too difficult and i can learn my way around the different tools and files. But the real reason that i got into settlement editting was because i wanted to see Athens with an Acropolis . . .

But thats a ways off. For now ill stick with my yurts. (Yurt is my new favorite word by the way.)

You should be eating mongolian bbq to compliment the yurts! Delicious stuff, and occasionally connected with yurts (in popular imagination, at least, though I doubt there's any real connection). besides, I'm POSITIVE that's what the mobile yurts were designed for: mobile mongolian bbq. mmm!

Very nice work on the yurts ! I hope to see them in the mod soon !

Completely redone skin and model. I like it much better now.

This is a flattop yurt. All yurts have a large hole in the center of the roof which is a side effect of the way they are constructed although the hole is useful for light and ventilations etc. This particular version has an animal hide tarp tied over the hole perhaps to protect against rain. Im planning a yurt without the tarp as well as a yurt with the more conical roof. There will also be bigger prettier ones for the more important people.
https://img336.imageshack.us/img336/122/yurt013ji.jpg

Very nice.:2thumbsup:

Awesome! :2thumbsup: ~:thumb:

Wow indeed! :2thumbsup: I'm anxious to see more and dying to play with your work!

To shifty.

I am from Mongolia. During summer breaks I lived in those yurts if you call that. In Mongolia people move from one place to another every month or two looking for a better pasture. And winter seasons they move to next to a higher ground to prevent northern cold wind. the yurt is made of timber and cottons, there's no metal at all. Wall is made of extentable woods that can be bent like this
/\/\/\/\/\/
/\/\/\/\/\/\/
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

to


---------------------------
---------------------------
---------------------------

that. THese walls are called "hana"

These walls create a circle connected by a door. On top of these wall you have about 108 pikes that create a conus. These pikes, we call them "uni", connected to perfect circle semiglobe, we call it "toono".

-
/ \
/ \

After connecting them by cables or hooks, we cover it with heavy duty water proof material (it's called "esgii") and the yurt is complete. The whole procedure takes about 20 minutes. But in western Mongolia you have bigger yurts compared to eastern mongolian design. Because western Mongolians use at least 5 walls (hana) while easterns use 3 to 5 walls (hana). Mongolians prefer private space so much that you will not see the next yurt about 15 miles or more. In some remote areas you can't meet anyone for 2 days if you travel. People used to it and don't think it's far away. Unprepared and new truck drivers sometimes die during winter seasons. every year lot of people get lost and die in desert area, the south of Mongolia.

The yurt setup is pretty simple. Some poor families don't have floor just plain earth. Some families can afford wooden floor and it's expensive. From now on I am gonna call yurt as "ger" like we do. Inside "ger", there's fire place right at the center. Western part of the fireplace belongs to Male members and east part is female's part. Even when they eat they don't cross each others territory. North part where they place their highly praised items like portrait of a general or Buddha or Genggis Khan or some important figure they worship. To Mongols Genggis is not mere a mortal. They think he was sent by god to punish the southern evil force and unite warring clans under one flag to fight their common enemies, the city people. Those glorious days are long gone and still some hardcore Genggis worshippers can be found.

If there's any need of Nomad culture issues I could contribute some information since I was born and raised in that.

The top of "ger" is not completely covered and only half during day times. Northern forest people have very ancient type of "ger". These northern people called "reindeer people" and they just find some comfortable dry place and connect pikes, "uni", and cover it with animal skin or whatever. We call it "urts" and urts is not comfortabe to stay. The urts has no ventilation access because they put stone or heavy stuff on the edge of the animal skin to prevent any heat loss. But you can build one under 2 minutes. Some of these reindeer people live in Siberia, Russia. Even some in Alaska, close to northern pole with bears. I dont like urts, ger is much more comfortable in any way.

Thank you, nemesisvsbrad. Insight from someone with first hand experience is always interesting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nemesisvsbrad

The top of "ger" is not completely covered and only half during day times.

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So, does that mean the animal hide tarp on top of the latest ger version (happy to switch to "ger") and the side poles stretching it would not be adequate?

:2thumbsup:
Best of luck, it's already looking promising!

About the .bpi files, didn't the Zhan Guo team manage to do something with that? At the very least they created ramps up to walls for troops to move on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

About the .bpi files, didn't the Zhan Guo team manage to do something with that? At the very least they created ramps up to walls for troops to move on.

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Indeed the Zhan Guo team did create an editor to edit the .bpi files quite some time ago. They have yet to release it or any of their other knowledge to the general community even though they promised to do so. This isnt so big a deal for me yet though because i can generaly find an exisitng .bpi file with the dimensions that i need.


nemesisvsbrad
Thank you very much. Some actual information is very useful as all i have to work with are some pictures. I saw the ger with the tarp over it in a picture and although (like you said) i figured this wouldnt normally be the case i felt that it was reasonable to assume that these tarps would be used when it rained or snowed to keep the inside dry. The tarp is also a simple way to create more visual variety among the various ger so that they dont all look exactly the same.

Your information is great and i appreciate it very much. If you ever have any more information i would always be happy to hear it. If you took any pictures during your times living in a ger then i would be happy if you could send those to me.


On a more general note. Ive hit a busy point in my schedule so for the next few weeks things will slow down a bit but after that i should be able to put time in on a daily basis.

[QUOTE=shifty157On a more general note. Ive hit a busy point in my schedule so for the next few weeks things will slow down a bit but after that i should be able to put time in on a daily basis.[/QUOTE]
You'll be missed! We all think that this is a really promising project and what you have produced so far is certainly excellent. Of course, RL takes precedence. Thank you and we'll be waiting.

Well i wont be gone completely. I should check the forums regularly and ill find some time to mod.

Anyway. Im having a problem. Whenever i save a new texture the alpha map will not show up in game. The .dds settings are correct as i never change them. When i check the skin using the .dds thumbnail viewer the alphamaps are applied making the correct selections clear so i assume photoshop is saving the file correctly. When i get in game however the alpha maps are not applied but only the ones for textures which i just editted and saved. Older textures are still displayed correctly. Something happened between yesterday and today and im not sure what.

I am glad that shifty has accepted my offer to help on this nomad culture issue. I will try to explain following images as much as I can.

https://img151.imageshack.us/img151/...mall4vi.th.jpg

it's the original hana before it's been extended, and then


https://img151.imageshack.us/img151/...nded5zw.th.jpg

test

https://img151.imageshack.us/img151/...gger2cx.th.jpg

After you connect 4 to 5 hana's together to create a circle you connect the top with uni's like that. The other ends of the uni's connected to "TOONO" which is a perfect circle.

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/...nger7yr.th.jpg

Here you see a part of afgan ger.

https://img90.imageshack.us/img90/34...side6ke.th.jpg

This is a decoration inside a kirgiz ger.

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/...j2235yp.th.jpg

This is the worship area of a ger. Notice the uni's on top part. Dont forget to see the carpet depicting Mongol army standing front of a defeated chinese city hall. Certainly this family has some serious religious members i bet.

https://img97.imageshack.us/img97/9527/znoo2ty.th.jpg

A ger from outside.

https://img413.imageshack.us/img413/...13737qk.th.jpg

some females drinking tea, but see that uni's

more to come ...

More pics

https://img332.imageshack.us/img332/1037/uni4hu.th.jpg

Some monks, uni's look better in this pic

https://img332.imageshack.us/img332/...17114ja.th.jpg

Some womenfolks after milking mares.

https://img332.imageshack.us/img332/4925/aj736yf.th.jpg

a northern barbarian woman taking care of some businesses, see behind her a ger next to a small river. I think it's dangerious to build ger over there. In case of heavy rain, the river could cause some harm.

https://img336.imageshack.us/img336/427/aj2190ag.th.jpg

You see here a more modernized type of ger. It has concrete base so it longer a ger anyway. somehousewives socializing too.

https://img336.imageshack.us/img336/...86985cx.th.jpg

A ger in the middle of nowhere, a true barbarian nomad family.

https://img336.imageshack.us/img336/7957/2070jq.th.jpg

Double rainbow. It has no photoshop effects, no editing whatsoever.

https://img336.imageshack.us/img336/9606/aj119oe.th.jpg

A barbarian girl. She has no belt, so you know that she is a single.

https://img319.imageshack.us/img319/...16677py.th.jpg

some northern barbarians having conversation, the uni's here are not decorated so I guess this family is more likely a below middle class.

https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/99...iton1wi.th.jpg

A barbarian couple taking ride .

I'll post some more pics

These images from a russian site but I forgot from exactly where.

https://img125.imageshack.us/img125/3625/pic23vb.th.jpg

a pitched battle

https://img125.imageshack.us/img125/...abig6wp.th.jpg

horsemen

https://img125.imageshack.us/img125/...4big1aq.th.jpg

An anti-cavalry sprearman.

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/...5big2mb.th.jpg

A late period musket team