Mexican flag burned at a High School...

Not to specifically pick on you, but...

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

We are not closed to immigrants at all! America was built on Immigrants who have accepted their new home with grace. Assimilating into the country and helping to make it what it is today. Many Mexican immigrants refuse to do that, which is detrimental. These are the same ones who fly a Mexican flag in a school.

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Revisionist. "American" (often the self-proclaimed "morally superior" bunch) efforts to "assimilate" (discarding "un-American" practices, the term of which changes continuously) the immigrants, and the immigrants' efforts to preserve their native culture--not too mention the violence often involved in nativist riots--are, if I am so bold to claim, an integral part of American history.

The Mexicans are just today's Irish, Eastern Europeans, Japanese, etc.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Flying one over your house is just as disrespectful, in my opinion. It signals to me that this person is an ungrateful twit. But it's their right to be an ungrateful twit, especially in their own home. Which makes it all the worse, I suppose, since they're taking advantage of American rights and generosity.

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Well, you could actually care less...

...flags are what you think what they are, nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Flying the CSA is harmless. It doesn't exist any more. Mexico, however, is very real and very nearby.

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Are you indirectly claiming that there's actually a plausible threat of the Mexican takeover of American lands!?

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Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

As of being a "little piece of Mexico"... a third of the US population speaks spanish. A flag or the absence of one doesn't change anything. A third of the country is a little bit more than a little piece.

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Question; when you say that 1/3 of the US speaks Spanish, are you refering only to Meixicans, or are you lumping people who learned it as a second language into the same group, despite the fact that they are in no way connected to Mexico?

Flying the CSA is harmless. It doesn't exist any more.
Damn , I could have sworn that you had confederate political parties over there , you know the ones that want southern independance , use the stars and bars instead of the stars and stripes .
Better tell them that they lost their war just like the mexicans and they had better get rid of them flags eh :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

What a coincidence. I happen to be living in America, and wouldn't like it to be turned into another Mexico.

:help:

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The connection with a bunch of coloured rags somewhat eludes me.

I'm also somewhat less than convinced by the "hyperpower under siege" postulation and mentality involved.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

A foreign flag should NEVER be flown in the United States at a public school over the US flag or instead of the Stars and Stripes. What's you opinion?

Your article has a 16 year old saying that he heard that the flag was higher , is there any comfirmation on that actually happening ?

Capo , you talk of treason and such . There was this fire truck in a Columbus day parade , it had a pair of those flags that you fix on vehicles on its roof , stars and stripes flavour of course , and on the side that I was on it had a huge stars and stripes covering a good part of the side (I guess it had a matching one the other side ) , on a big staff flying above them all was the Italian flag , isn't that treasonous ?

Flags , patriotism , what a load of crap:no:

Flag burning patriotism , small minded feckwits , you see extremist idiots doing it all the time :shrug:

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Was it a Parade, or something meant to be permenant?

Also, was the Firetruck a public building?

Two very different things.


In other news, can I come to Finland, take down the finnish flag over whatever you have as a congress/whitehouse type deal, and fly the Stars and Strips?

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Flying the CSA is harmless. It doesn't exist any more. Mexico, however, is very real and very nearby.

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How is that flying a flag, carrying a certain sign, or shouting certain things, will change your country from USA to Mexico? Really the strange connections that can be done when one is willing to look for them. And advice on further discussions, culture is not something stagnant and something that you can ancor forever, as a tradition, traditions are part of culture, however that doesn't mean that certain traditions cannot live together with others. Your culture will change, probably assimilating mexican and canadian culture, mexican culture will (and is in fact already merged in plains like music) assimilite yours, my culture will take a portion of every culture around the world. Today we live on that world, we've to accept that times of isolation and rigid traditions are over, probably forever. Is this really something to worry about? No, your economy will still be the same, and you and other "natives" would still believe in your ideals and practice your traditions, there's nothing on multiculturalism that obstaculizes that.

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Originally Posted by solypsist

public schools still fly confederate flags - and yet i see no outrage over that. i imagine if someone took one of those down and burned it there'd be many irateusers here wanting the burner jailed. this sort of thread is rife with potential double standards.

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True. However, and you may correct me if I am wrong, I believe this flag is flown below the U.S. flag.

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Originally Posted by GoreBag

Anyone who cares is a douche.

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Yes, this whole thing Americans have with flags is too bizarre to bother.

Don't know why he'd put the flag up in the US. I don't think it's wrong, but I don't see any point. It's just stupid.

I don't know if you should go as far as burning it though. Maybe taking it down, don't know. I wasn't in the situation.

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Mexican flag burned at a High School...

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Good

Mexico has a flag?

I'm going to start a rumor that there are a lot of free flags and tanktops being given away in Mexico, and when the foreign occupiers all run across the border to get some free flags we can, like, shut the door real quick and lock it.

And I think the confederate flag thing varies from area to area, county to county and state to state, but for the most part you will be hard pressed to find confederate flags flying on public buildings.

By most states own rules a capitol flies all the flagsx that have flown over the territory, so it is somewhat ridiculous to leave out the confederate while including the cherokee, the seminole or whatever. If you dont want to hurt anyones feelings, then change the criteria of what flies where, dont just ominously omit one flag while pretending you are following tradition. Change the rules. And if those are the rules, and a mexican flag flew over the territory then so be it, but never to be flown over the national and current state flag.

Anyway, flag burning is a protected from of speech, no matter how tacky. If we can villify our own country by burning its flag, we should certainly be able to villify others by burning theirs. The line has to be drawn at personal property laws though, as you dont burn someone elses flag.

I left skid marks in American flag swimming trunks once, is that treason?

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Originally Posted by Big King Sanctaphrax

Is it just the Mexican flag you feel this way about, or does that include others too?

If I moved to the US, for example, but flew the Union flag over my property, would you consider that disrespectful?



How on earth can you deserve a race riot?

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Good points. And how about the Confederate flags, huh? :inquisitive:

EDIT: Did not read post above me before. Sorry. And, no I don't think that would be considered treason Major Dump.

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Originally Posted by Alexanderofmacedon

Good points. And how about the Confederate flags, huh? :inquisitive:
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different conotations. If they wanna fly a mexion flag fine but below the american one. The only flag that is allowed to be raised just as high is Texas!

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Flying the CSA is harmless. It doesn't exist any more. Mexico, however, is very real and very nearby.

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This perspective interests me. The topic at hand, I would argue, is about the symbolism that flags embody. They derived from heraldic emblems, and continue to be invested with that 'us' as opposed to 'them' significance. Regiments in the British Army, for example, still use colours (battle standards) to represent the soul of both current members and their illustrious forebears, and battle honours are proudly sewn into them. Like all symbols, they are invested with as much significance as the group whch adopts them wishes. I would have died for my colour (were they still taken on the field - I'm not that old ~;) ) more so than for my 'country' as the regiment was my family, but most people would not invest such signficance into an ancient piece of cloth.

However, I don't think anyone can deny that they are very powerful symbols, even if you personally do not accept them. Just think about one's emotional reaction to the flag of Nazi Germany - an extreme example perhaps, but illustrative. In the north of my country, flags as symbols of identity for republicans or unionists are widely used, widely abused, and are incredibly provocative to even peaceable communities. Even for me, happy in my free republic, the sight of the Union Flag flying in Ireland gives me a brief twinge of patriotic angst, and I'm several generations away from when it mattered. My grandfather killed and died to get rid of that piece of cloth, but his grandson shouldn't really care, should he? But that old grainy film of the Union Jack being replaced by the tricolour at Dublin Castle still means a lot, to me at least - and this is a very weird state of affairs, for I have served the British flag as well as the tricolour. Ah well, no-one said patriotism was a rational thing ~D

So I can well understand the emotions provoked by seeing the flag of a nation which is causing some contentious issues being flown over a building like a school, and why it is right to remove it forthwith, though without the provocation of burning it. (I like Lemur's perspective of it being respectful though :2thumbsup: )

So, taking this viewpoint further, I have always been intrigued by the apparently acceptable use of the Confederate flag. As an outsider, remember, it strikes me that it is the symbol of a movement that sought to destroy the USA, caused a war that killed many thousands and represents a racist doctrine that must be deeply offensive to many citizens of the US, black and white. To me, an Irishman interested in the US, it is deeply offensive whenever I see it, and is still used in many parts of Europe as a neo-nazi emblem. In the US, which actually suffered the effects of what it represents, it should be reviled as much as the Nazi flag is reviled in Germany, surely?

If we accept the symbolism of flags in terms of representing our countries and values (and therefore defendable, and to some extent sacred) then the Confederate flag should be anathema to all US citizens, and because of its racist symbolism to many fellow citizens (one side of whom may use it as a rallying call for their evil, the other side who are reminded of cruel times) certainly not harmless in any way. :inquisitive:

A question:
Does it exist any symbol in America that says "proud Hispanic American"?

Because I've got a feeling that the Mexican flag is used like that in those parts.

I dont care what it means, you dont fly it above the national and state flag. And then you dont whine when it gets burned amidst all the ruckus that is going on now. Putting it above the national and federal flag at a time like this is inviting a confrontation, its entrapment almost. Boohoo a flag got burned, well the protestors held up traffic, lets call it a draw, K?

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

The lesson to be taken from our acceptance of the CSA Flag isn't a difficult one. The men fighting for the CSA were Americans, whether they thought it at the time or not. And while the years following the war were to be difficult for everyone, we've come to understand this far down the road that the Confederate Flag is just another American flag. Perhaps symbolizing the very will of the American people to fight for what they think is right, among other (sometimes less savory) symbolisms. It is not the flag of another nation, it's a flag of America.

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I can see your point, but I would argue that it is not the flag of the United States of America. Indeed, it was the symbol of a group of Americans that wanted to be other than that which the United States represents - to be another nation entirely. Why is that different in symbolism to Mexicans pleading the 'reconquista' notion and using their flag? After all (if I may split hairs to make a point ~:) ) Mexicans are Americans too.

I don't have any problem with people flying foriegn flags on private property, some people are proud of their heritage and want to fly a flag let them I say. In public schools though the only places I don't mind seeing foriegn flags are in language classes and history classes, otherwise they shouldn't be there despite the pride of whichever student or factulty memeber puts it up.

As for burning it, I don't really care. If people can burn American flags in the US for whatever reason than the should also be allowed to do the same of foreign flags and so long as it's your flag you're burning (your own property, not stolen from someone else).

And there are Union Jacks flying in the US, it's part of the flag of the State of Hawaii. King Kamehameha liked the design when Captain Cook was flying it and adopted it into his own flag. As for the Confederate flags that still fly I thought that the only ones that are still flown over public buildings are the ones that are still part of state flags like the Union Jack is in the Hawaiian flag. I know many states have changed their state flags in recent years to remove the conferate flag but I believe there are a few that are still there.

you dont fly it above the national and state flag.
Putting it above the national and federal flag
If they wanna fly a mexion flag fine but below the american one.

Any confirmation that it was above the US flag yet , or is it just what some kid heard ?



we've come to understand this far down the road that the Confederate Flag is just another American flag.
The Mexican flag is just another American flag , so it the Canadian one .

Haruchai , talking of flags . how do you feel around the 12th when you see tricolours being raised as high as posible up in the 6 ? How do you feel when those highly hoisted flags go up in flames ?
Do you get really elated , do you get really annoyed , or do you just think what a bunch of muppets ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

[B]Haruchai , talking of flags . how do you feel around the 12th when you see tricolours being raised as high as posible up in the 6 ? How do you feel when those highly hoisted flags go up in flames ?
Do you get really elated , do you get really annoyed , or do you just think what a bunch of muppets ?

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I think the muppet thing, just as I think of myself as a muppet for my occasional flashes of nationalism. Ireland has always been cursed by attachment to the past, and I am guilty of that romanticism more than I should be. The 6 have the opportunity to achieve a united Ireland through persuasion and democracy nowadays, and flaunting the tricolour on what is still British soil until they achieve that objective is insulting to the Brits.

Much more important than any of this nasty symbolism is the reality that the border is just a fantasy used by extremists. We're both in the EU, almost everyone travels across the 'border' with as much fuss as it takes to get into Yorkshire from Lancashire. (Probably less ~D ). I run my business in both Eire and the UK.

But I am proud of my country, her struggle for freedom, and my family's part in that. I hope I never let that pride make any one uncomfortable, or allow my nationalism to cloud clear thinking (for more than the odd moment when I sing the national anthem at Twickenham just before beating the English). :bounce:

Well, I don't know how everyone else feels about this, but it makes me laugh when they fly Wisconsin's flag as high as the US flag, if I'm correct, I can even remember several occassions when it has been flying higher than the US flag. Down w/ the Federal government I say. Err... wait, there seems to be a bit of disparity in some opinions... I guess more people like our Federal government than I can remember.:laugh4:

Haruchai , when you have that odd clouded moment do you sing a soldiers song in the language that it was written or that into which it was translated ?
Damn , that patriotism can get confusing .:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Haruchai , when you have that odd clouded moment do you sing a soldiers song in the language that it was written or that into which it was translated ?
Damn , that patriotism can get confusing .:laugh4:

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Imagine that both your parents have different native languages too, and therefore you have 3 native languages (your dad's, your mom's and your own), and patriotism becomes even blurrier. Or hairier. I never know which one defines patriotism better.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Haruchai , when you have that odd clouded moment do you sing a soldiers song in the language that it was written or that into which it was translated ?
Damn , that patriotism can get confusing .:laugh4:

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Yeah, well I said that patriotism wasn't necessarily logical :2thumbsup:

And I sing in Gaelic. And then I sing 'Ireland's Call' in English. And then I would cheer a really good English try (if they ever score one) and go and buy a round or two of beer for my English friends. And I do that when they trash our first Grand Slam opportunity for fifty years at Lansdowne Road. ~:mecry: ~:cheers:

Patriotism can have positive effects too, as long as no-one uses it as an excuse to get out the rocks and pointy sticks.

someone raised the mexican flag as an act of protest and it was summarily brought down and destroyed as an act of counter-protest. case closed. let's move on.

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

I dont care what it means, you dont fly it above the national and state flag. And then you dont whine when it gets burned amidst all the ruckus that is going on now. Putting it above the national and federal flag at a time like this is inviting a confrontation, its entrapment almost. Boohoo a flag got burned, well the protestors held up traffic, lets call it a draw, K?

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Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia

In other news, can I come to Finland, take down the finnish flag over whatever you have as a congress/whitehouse type deal, and fly the Stars and Strips?

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*shrug* You could try. I daresay the impeccably dressed security personnel would politely but firmly stop you though, and if you made a ruckus the cops would take you in for the night for disturbing the peace or something. The only reason it'd piss me off would actually be the fact I detest US national symbols somewhat more than most others.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

*shrug* You could try. I daresay the impeccably dressed security personnel would politely but firmly stop you though, and if you made a ruckus the cops would take you in for the night for disturbing the peace or something. The only reason it'd piss me off would actually be the fact I detest US national symbols somewhat more than most others.

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I'll bring a division of conscripted infantry with me.

Well, just so you know, there's at least a battalion or thereabouts more or less permanently stationed near the capital, and as might be imagined specifically trained for urban combat. And a naval base or two right off the coast.

Although I suspect the cops would arrest your whole lot, thinking them to be some sort of unregistered demonstration...
:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia

I'll bring a division of conscripted infantry with me.

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also that is a rather childish approach.