Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
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Originally Posted by English assassin
Of course, the symptoms that can be used to support a diagnosis of AD/HD exist. But there are at least two questions unanswered in my mind. First, do they have one underlying cause, and second, aren't we just medicalising part of the spectrum of normal human behaviour?
The first question cannot be answered for the majority of psychiatric disorders. Are you saying that they are all meaningless? The second question is valid however, and I agree in sofar that a lot of what is called ADHD is just childish excitability. But in my post above I described how ADHD (specifically the AD part) can make life very difficult. In such a case, it is not normal behaviour that is being medicalized.
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Originally Posted by English assassin
The sad fact is drug companies are primarily interested in making money. If they can do that by making a drug that cures a dangerous disease, then, sure, they will. They aren't actively evil. But its easier to make money with drugs that only control, rather than cure, chronic "diseases" in wealthy populations. And when the "disease" covers most of the population, they are quids in.
Quite right, but if there wasn't a demand for these pills the companies would never produce them. I really doubt Novartis developed Ritalin with the intention of giving parents an easy solution for their child's dislike of school. It is ignorance and pride, not commercialism, that drives these excesses.
As for your final question: yes, you are right in saying that these feelings are part of life. But when do you call an emotion excessive?
:bow:
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
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The first question cannot be answered for the majority of psychiatric disorders. Are you saying that they are all meaningless?
Well, I do have a reductionist prejudice I admit. My degree was in biochemistry and a number of relatives work in Parkinsons research and I suspect that, emotionally, I do think that if you can't point to the molecules "causing" the disease its not a real disease.
Which, rationally, I acknowledge is not the case. Parkinson's itself being a counterexample, at least in the early years after its first description.
But happily that is not at issue here, because I am mainly concerned with the prescription of ritalin. Now that is a fairly well characterised drug with a specific mode of action, vis reducing the re-absorbtion of dopamine, and to prescribe it for ADHD the doctor is necessarily saying that a signficant cause of ADHD symptoms is caused by dysfunctional levels of dopamine (or its agonists). (Or in any case that those symptoms can be ameliorated in this way)
So that's quite a specific claim, not only that there are a body of symptoms commonly encountered together that we label ADHD, (and that's is open to some question) but also that those symptoms have an underlying organic cause.
Which I doubt.
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
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Originally Posted by doc_bean
Err..you forget you're doing a test or something ?
You have absolutely no idea what it is like. To get distracted beyond your own ability, constantly trying to put yourself back on course, and the little things keeping pulling you back away. The kid next to you playing w/ his pencil, the hum of the air conditioning, anything and everthing. The most frustrating part about it is not being able to control what you focus on. When you do not have to do school work, or any other thing related to human survival (beside eating), this is fun and free to 'give in to'. While you have work you want to do, it is horrible.
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Originally Posted by English Assassin
First, do they have one underlying cause, and second, aren't we just medicalising part of the spectrum of normal human behaviour?
Studies have shown that it is linked strongly to genetics. No, it is not normal to be absolutely driven mad by the ittle things around you that everyone else ignores. It is a surprise that I have not often erupted in class screaming in frustration.
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
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Originally Posted by Kanamori
You have absolutely no idea what it is like. To get distracted beyond your own ability, constantly trying to put yourself back on course, and the little things keeping pulling you back away. The kid next to you playing w/ his pencil, the hum of the air conditioning, anything and everthing. The most frustrating part about it is not being able to control what you focus on.
I have this often when I have to study, as do a lot of people I know. I do get 'tunnel vision' when doing an exam and can focus for a few hours straight without noticing anything that happens around me. After that I'm exhausted for the rest of the day though.
But you're right of course, i don't know what it's like to be you or anyone else, neither do you know what it's like to be me. I'm just trying to understand here.
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
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Originally Posted by English assassin
But happily that is not at issue here, because I am mainly concerned with the prescription of ritalin. Now that is a fairly well characterised drug with a specific mode of action, vis reducing the re-absorbtion of dopamine, and to prescribe it for ADHD the doctor is necessarily saying that a signficant cause of ADHD symptoms is caused by dysfunctional levels of dopamine (or its agonists). (Or in any case that those symptoms can be ameliorated in this way)
So that's quite a specific claim, not only that there are a body of symptoms commonly encountered together that we label ADHD, (and that's is open to some question) but also that those symptoms have an underlying organic cause.
Which I doubt.
We don't know the exact molecules behind clinical depression either, but that stops nobody from proscribing medicines that block monoamine (mostly serotonin) reuptake against it. Yet, it is quite debatable whether serotonin is responsible for depression, or even that depression has an underlying organic cause. I could make the same claim for the antipsychotics used against schizophrenia.
For me there is no question about it: ADHD does exist. Yet, from the sale of Ritalin I would think that it is, more often than not, diagnosed when it isn't there. I am not talking about childish excitability, I am talking about grown adults hardly able to do their own household chores because they have to act on each impulse.
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
AD/HD is there, but not to the extent that society tells us. Apparantly, becasue I am not interested in chemistry, and do not pay attention half the class, I have AD/HD, and should be on drugs. What I have is not AD/HD, its simply bordom and lack of interest.
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
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Originally Posted by Kanamori
Studies have shown that it is linked strongly to genetics. No, it is not normal to be absolutely driven mad by the ittle things around you that everyone else ignores. It is a surprise that I have not often erupted in class screaming in frustration.
What you explain sounds a bit like OCD, which I have quite a bad case of. If the smallest thing is out of place, such as a pencil placed on a tilt, I cannot concentrate at all until the pencil is straight.
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
What's the topic again? Oh yes, AD/HD... Well like I said, i like Boobies and i still can't find my car keys. Those meds are starting to work. What a minute, this isn't myspace.com!!! Oh well, time to go... wait, what was I going to do. Oh sweet, I just found my keys!!!
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
I have to wonder why I haven't put you on ignore before. It's not as if anything useful or anything that amounted to an argument is ever posted by you. All you know how to do is insult, and you are the pudgy moron that looks like he came from a family of inbreds.
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
As some of you have said, physicians out there are just looking to make money. The same way Orthadontists claim the majority of people need braces, even though they may not, in an attempt to rake in the riches.
I'm not doubting the fact that it is a real disorder, I know a couple of guys with it ... and sh** do they have it. But it does not exist at the broad level that physicians claim it is at.
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
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Originally Posted by Kanamori
I have to wonder why I haven't put you on ignore before. It's not as if anything useful or anything that amounted to an argument is ever posted by you. All you know how to do is insult, and you are the pudgy moron that looks like he came from a family of inbreds.
Thanks, sounds like you have sand in your vagina.
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
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Originally Posted by Kanamori
Is your problem with the medication, or the doctor? My guess is the medication, but why? The fact that it is a stimulant? I doubt it could be good for the heart to take day in and day out, and really I'm not found of it at all. Is it abnormal for stimulants like mehylphenidate to calm down people? Studies have shown that medication is more effective than behavorial treatment.
My problem is with the doctor. A physician doesn't have the education necessary to apply a diagnosis like ADHD. He can probably recognize a schizophrenic as well as a psychologist (though I have doubts about that) but he can't tell whether someone's attention is pathological or not. Of course, psychologists can make mistakes with that quite easily too (especially where financial interests are involved) but you don't go to a veterinarian either when you need your teeth fixed.
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Originally Posted by EA
Of course, the symptoms that can be used to support a diagnosis of AD/HD exist. But there are at least two questions unanswered in my mind. First, do they have one underlying cause, and second, aren't we just medicalising part of the spectrum of normal human behaviour?
As Ludens already said, it is normal for psychopathology that we don't know whether the symptoms have a common cause. We would be very happy if we had a ethiological approach in psychopathology but we have to live with what we have and we simply don't know enough for that. But if someone harms himself because the heating told him to, then it's not sensible to say "sorry, we can't help you because the cause of schizophrenia isn't known yet". We treat him the best we can. Psychotherapy is based on the - somewhat naive - assumption that symptoms that appear together will also disappear together when we find the right therapy (which is mostly found empirically).
The question whether something is normal human behavior or not is related to that. As I mentioned in several threads about forms of sexuality, there is no clear-cut objective criterium that seperates normal from diseased in psychology. We have to decide for ourselves. In the case of ADHD we can connect it to distress. If the attention problems of a child are so serious that he or she is compromized in normal social functioning then something has to be done about that. You can say that ADHD doesn't exist and claim that the child is instead "dumb", "energetic" or "just a child", but none of them are actually a solution to the problem, are they?
Of course, we have to agree first that there is a problem. If you say that children with severe attention deficits will be fine and I can't convince you that we should call it "ADHD". But if we agree that there's a problem we should talk about a solution and not in the first place the ethiology of the problem (although knowing that would of course help). Research has shown that children with attention disorders can be helped a lot (and to me surprisingly much more than with psychotherapy) with medication. Of course, a lot of children that are diagnosed ADHD would probably be better off if the attention problems of the parents were fixed than with medication, but that doesn't mean that the diagnosis itself doesn't make sense.
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
Recently a woman used fish oil to treat her daughter's 'disorder' and now the Australian government is looking into using it instead of 'medication' as it worked wonders with her behavioural problems. This has been known for years but...
There are so many preservatives with side effects that it's not surprising children suffer from these things. So, if it's chemical and therefore drug related, it's not much of a disorder. Just a label to make drug companies and their lackeys rich. 'Natural Flavours' is just a label too. Read the back of the product to be certain.
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
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Originally Posted by SomeNick
So, if it's chemical and therefore drug related, it's not much of a disorder.
I don't quite understand that one. What would it be if it is not chemical, mechanical?
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
He probably means that the preservatives put in food are not natural occuring chemicals in the human body so he labels it 'chemical' as in external.
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
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Originally Posted by doc_bean
Now I sometimes have to learn a few hours on just a simple and small word list.
Just sometimes ? That's normal, I could never focus on those...
Well sometimes is a big understatement.
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If you pass without studying you don't need to study, losing attention because something is just plain boring is perfectly normal. Learning something you already know is boring. Using your criteria here pretty much every uni student I know has (had) ADHD.
Strange it happens with french too and I can barely write a setence without 20 errors in it (grammar/spelling/words....)
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Happens to me too, learning can take a lot out of you, I once lost 5kg in two weeks during an exam period, eating normally (slightly more fastfood than normal). Feeling tired and needing sleep is perfectly normal.
Since you were 8 years old?
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I had big problems with '+' and '-' too, I lost three points on an exam for that once :embarassed:
Once again, pretty normal, it has improved for me somewhat over the years. It's considered a common mistake for engineering students, and we're suppsoed to be math-heads. Do not worry.
3 points/once vs 20%/daily
...
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Err..you forget you're doing a test or something ?
well, I would call it that but it isn't far from it. Even now (while typing) I've been doing things and been thinking about the wierdest things. It wouldn't surprise me if this post alone is going to take 20 minutes.
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You have absolutely no idea what it is like. To get distracted beyond your own ability, constantly trying to put yourself back on course, and the little things keeping pulling you back away. The kid next to you playing w/ his pencil, the hum of the air conditioning, anything and everthing. The most frustrating part about it is not being able to control what you focus on. When you do not have to do school work, or any other thing related to human survival (beside eating), this is fun and free to 'give in to'. While you have work you want to do, it is horrible.
And it far worse then that. And not only when doing your homework. It's easier for me to stay awake whole night then falling a sleep. I think and do the strangest things when trying to get to sleep. It is hard to not think and do something. The day that I can think about nothing or even just one thing I'll eat my shoes (except if they give me some drug or something.) Can you believe I was thinking about black holes right now and about a story I recently heard. Damn now I'm even making strange noises with my fingers (you know slapping them against you cheeks).
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I forget anything that doesn't interest me, unfortunatly, that includes most people (faces and names) and where I put my keys...
I forget a lot, not just stuff that I don't care about. I forget about anything I can.
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If you've got ADHD, then based on your post, so do I.
Ofcourse I don't know you but I guess you don't.
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
Is AD/HD a disorder - yes it is.
Is AD/HD a disorder that is over diagnosed and over-treated with medication. The answer is the same - a resounding yes.
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
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Happens to me too, learning can take a lot out of you, I once lost 5kg in two weeks during an exam period, eating normally (slightly more fastfood than normal). Feeling tired and needing sleep is perfectly normal.
Since you were 8 years old?
I sleep 9-10h a day normally, I still feel tired from time to time.
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I had big problems with '+' and '-' too, I lost three points on an exam for that once
Once again, pretty normal, it has improved for me somewhat over the years. It's considered a common mistake for engineering students, and we're suppsoed to be math-heads. Do not worry.
3 points/once vs 20%/daily
...
Well, we don't have that many tests anymore :2thumbsup:
I've rarely had a math test where i didn't make a mistake like that.
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If you've got ADHD, then based on your post, so do I.
Ofcourse I don't know you but I guess you don't.
Well I don't know you, you don't know me, hard to diagnoses people that way, even if we would be doctors. I'm pretty sure I don't have ADHD, you might have, I don't know.
Just out of curiosity, can you keep concentrate for a relatively long time (say 20 minutes) when something interests you ? Like a good book or a movie or a game ?
Re: Is 'AD/HD' a disorder?
rarely, but sometimes it does happen but when it does people can stand in fornt of me screaming an I wouldn't notice but that's verry rare. (when I was little and played the gameboy it happened a few times). But usually no, for example during a Rtw battle I think "what the ****** was I doing again...hmmm...oh yeah I was flacking that un...owh my cavalry is routing? oop I forget to pull them back.
But I usually still beat the AI ~:dizzy:
