Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
Had a few hours to kill over the weekend so I tried making it harder for the AI to kill off my Generals in Denmark. I had border forts in all provinces and also left assassins in each province. (I only had 5)
Sure enough, every one continually sent assassins up my way and I was losing a General or Governor about every second turn. Sure most were taken out by "Bodyguards" but I thought that I would not lose so may guys.
Plus every emissary I sent out to gather Princesses would last about 5 turns max before they too ended up dead.
Note that I am only playing on Early/Easy and it is Vanilla MTW. I was also allied to pretty much every other faction.
I figured that I would fight fire with fire and send out some of my own assassins (well infact not send out but kill off emissaries and the like in my own provinces). They too also got creamed (especially if the emissary or whatever moved out of my province and the assassin followed.
So I trained up a unit of peasants and sent some assassins to kill them off to get some valour. My peasant killed 3 in one go!!!! (no border fort was in the province at the time). :skull: :skull: :skull:
End of Assassins. What am I doing wrong????
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Diablo
Sure enough, every one continually sent assassins up my way and I was losing a General or Governor about every second turn. Sure most were taken out by "Bodyguards" but I thought that I would not lose so may guys.
The "bodyguards" scroll is just a standard text. It means nothing, other than that an assassin was captured in this province.
Quote:
I figured that I would fight fire with fire and send out some of my own assassins (well infact not send out but kill off emissaries and the like in my own provinces). They too also got creamed (especially if the emissary or whatever moved out of my province and the assassin followed.
So I trained up a unit of peasants and sent some assassins to kill them off to get some valour. My peasant killed 3 in one go!!!! (no border fort was in the province at the time). :skull: :skull: :skull:
End of Assassins. What am I doing wrong????
The A.I. knows when you target its ships or agents and will move them away (provided they are not on a mission), in the latter case often to a province with border forts. Low-level assassins are very clumsy and will often get killed, either by the target itself or by border forts. Also, targetting the same unit leader several times will result in him getting anti-assassin vices. You just have to keep on trying, though it does sound you are singularly unlucky. If you have VI installed, you may try and upgrade your alehouse so you get higher alour assassins.
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
No I don't have MTW VI installed and I can not find it in any shops. Seems it is too old now and everyone is playing RTW and BI.
It does not seem that assassins are all that good in Vanilla MTW then. (well at least hard to get valour up).
I would normally only use them to take out high level opposition generals and maybe royalty to put factions into civil war.
Just one last question - do assassins help to stop other assassins when they are in your own provinces, but the province already has a watch tower or border fort?
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
If you want to get VI, look on amazon.com - mine's in the mail as I write this
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
Thanks for that Clovis. I may have to do that! Seems that Assassins are not much chop till they get some valour.
My Vanilla MTW also explains why I was not getting to the rookery part of the tech tree and was not getting the valour bonus from Syria when playing as the Egyptians...
Not sure what is says about me but the thought of sending squads of assassins to mop up the enemy has high appeal.
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Diablo
Just one last question - do assassins help to stop other assassins when they are in your own provinces, but the province already has a watch tower or border fort?
I don't think anyone has ever done the math, but yes, I suppose so. However, they don't seem to valour up when a border fort is present. A watchtower does nothing to stop spies or assassins, though.
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
I don't think anyone has ever done the math, but yes, I suppose so. However, they don't seem to valour up when a border fort is present. A watchtower does nothing to stop spies or assassins, though.
That's correct. If there's a border fort in a province, it gets first crack at capturing enemy assassins, and none of your agents get any experience for the kill. If there's no border fort, then I believe the counter-agent "ladder" goes: spy--> assassin--> emissary. In other words, if you have a province with no border fort, the spy will get credit for capturing enemy agents. If you don't have a spy there, then the assassin will get credit. If there's neither a spy nor an assassin available, then the emissary will get credit for the "kill".
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martok
If there's no border fort, then I believe the counter-agent "ladder" goes: spy--> assassin--> emissary. In other words, if you have a province with no border fort, the spy will get credit for capturing enemy agents. If you don't have a spy there, then the assassin will get credit. If there's neither a spy nor an assassin available, then the emissary will get credit for the "kill".
Are emissaries able to detect spies :dizzy2: ?
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
Are emissaries able to detect spies :dizzy2: ?
Hmm, now that I'm not sure of. I would theorize that they can, since they can also catch assassins. I've never tested this, however, so your guess is as good as mine. :shrug:
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
The problem with "testing" these things is that it is only ever a percentage thing. I would like to know if it was cummulative.
Thus if you had a border fort (say 80%) + assassin (additional 15%) + spy (additional 4%) = 99% chance of catching assassin/spy. Then you need minus a certain percentage for the valour of the assassin/spy.
(note the %'s above are just for example are are totally ficticious :laugh4:)
I would be good to know if it is cummulative as some governors (with v. v. high accumen) would be well worth the extra protection particularly in key provinces (like Sweden or Const. etc.)
Is there anyway to tell without trial and error???? :help:
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
It doesn't work cumulatively, as far as I know. The border fort is the first layer of defense. If that fails then it's down to the Assassins, Spies and Emissaries (though I'm not sure about there being a priority with these, their effect is not cumulative either). Emissaries can catch assassins and spies in a province though I've never seen them gain valour from doing so (except for when they were the target and managed to foil the attempt on their life which is not the same thing as counterspying). I've often had a valour 0 spy in a province with a valour 1 assassin. A rival agent is caught, and the assassin goes up to valour 2, the spy remaining on 0. So it seems that the highest valour spy/assassin has the greatest chance of catching rival agents. To me it seems that, in this capacity, Spies and Assassins are equal. Spies still make better counterspies though due to their happiness boosting effect.
The ideal way to valour up your assassins is to never build border forts. You should keep one or two assassins in a port province with one emissary as bait. This will bring in the rival assassins. Same thing works for spies.
The bodyguards scroll indicates that the agent was caught by his actual target, and not the counterspies in the province. Emissaries and bishops gains valour for failed attempts on their lifes, generals can gain v&vs.
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martok
Hmm, now that I'm not sure of. I would theorize that they can, since they can also catch assassins. I've never tested this, however, so your guess is as good as mine. :shrug:
They only catch assassins when an assassination attempt fails. They never catch spies, so I don't think they can detect either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheziScrotus XVI
The bodyguards scroll indicates that the agent was caught by his actual target, and not the counterspies in the province. Emissaries and bishops gains valour for failed attempts on their lifes, generals can gain v&vs.
Then there have been a lot more attempts at my generals' lives than I was aware of. I always thought the scroll just meant someone had been caught, never mind how. (I am really paranoid about spies so I always build border forts or station counterspies quickly).
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
They only catch assassins when an assassination attempt fails. They never catch spies, so I don't think they can detect either.
I'm not sure about emissaries either. If you check their status when they're just sitting in your own provinces they are stated to be "counterspying" just like spies and assassins, so this would indicate that they can detect and catch rival spies and assassins, though I can't say that I've seen it happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
Then there have been a lot more attempts at my generals' lives than I was aware of. I always thought the scroll just meant someone had been caught, never mind how. (I am really paranoid about spies so I always build border forts or station counterspies quickly).
I may be confusing something here, so bear with me. By the "bodyguards scroll" I'm referring to the "your general/emissary/bishop/princess etc reports an attempt on his/her life / managed to evade death at the hands of an assassin" type of thing. I can't remember the exact wording because I always play with non critical messages turned off these days. This message refers to one of your agents/priests/generals escaping being killed and instead turning the tables on their attacker. The generic "spy/assassin caught, believed to be working for the [faction]" messages refer to your counterspies/border forts catching rival assassins spies before they have a chance to execute their mission, or those that are just trying to pass through. (I'm also paranoid about security, but I find that if I start producing spies and assassins early, and get at least a spy in each province, I then don't need border forts, though I may build them in the late period to offset the bloat effect if necessary.)
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheziScrotus XVI
I may be confusing something here, so bear with me. By the "bodyguards scroll" I'm referring to the "your general/emissary/bishop/princess etc reports an attempt on his/her life / managed to evade death at the hands of an assassin" type of thing. I can't remember the exact wording because I always play with non critical messages turned off these days. This message refers to one of your agents/priests/generals escaping being killed and instead turning the tables on their attacker.
I meant the "Your bodyguards have captured and killed an enemy assassin. He is believed to work for faction X."-scroll. Since the scrolls mention quite explicitly when an assasination attempt has been made I supposed that this one just ment that an assassin had been captured, never mind how.
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
One last Assassin question.
When you set your Assassin(s) onto a target (be it diplomat, pesky alim or whatever) that WAS in your province, is there anyway to make sure that the Assassin does not follow the target into another factions province and get slaughtered by the border fort or whatever??
I find it annoying the way they do that.
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
Not to my knowledge, agents follow their targets wherever the latter go unless you abort the agent´s mission.
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
That is correct. Unless you abort their mission, assassins will follow their target wherever he/she goes. Assassins aren't smart enough to avoid border forts on their own. ~;p
Re: MTW diplomacy trouble
I immediately build border forts in every province and don't recall ever having a general killed by an assassin. i've only played 3 campaigns (noob!) so far, but it sounds to me like border forts are effective. Later in the game as I expand a bit I usually end up putting a spy in almost every territory as well, and about half my territories get an assassin. I try to assassinate every 'enemy' or unsavory person that wanders into my territory as well :)
