My Saudi Students

Tachi, do you think that these Arabs attitudes about women have just simply changed? Or, quite possibly, the EVIL EMPIRE of the United States and Western culture has assisted this change in policy and attitude. Regardless, you would never give the West that sort of consideration. Like I said earlier, every Arab/Persian (Iranian) persons have been really nice and polite. But for you to just preach to us about how other's personal experience are wrong concerning these people only show how hypocritical you are about trumpeting your own experience as some sort of Gospel Truth on how Arabs and Muslims in general are really (in your own world of course).
So while you're riding your moral high horse like some sort of Fundamentalist Christian that you loath so much, try to be more tolerant of other's beliefs and experiences. You don't want to come off as some sort of self righteous fascist do you!?!?!?:laugh4:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tachikaze

The Saudis could have remained in isolation. The government could keep its students within its borders, insulated from foreign contact. Yet, it is actively sponsoring programs to do the very opposite, exposing young men and women to Western values, pop culture, and vices.

---

Don't they also sponsor Wahhabi fundamentalist schools elsewhere? :inquisitive:

"LeftHand, have you seen RightHand around, I've got some questions..."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tachikaze

I can't vouch for the kinds of people you hang out with. My experience with Saudis goes back eleven years and covers many more people that can fit around a dinner table in one anecdotal situation. I would say, from what you have written so far, that my pool of representatives is larger than yours, and more current. They are also not soldiers.

---

Fair enough, although I don't exactly hand around with any particular group of people. I was merely trying to be a good representative of my fellow Americans by showing a little interest in their well being and respect for their culture. That I felt misled after the request by one of their associates to provide him with narcotics I'm sure that you can understand. The fact that he was so soon sent home afterwards was enough to justiy my suspicsions. The fact that they were soldiers has some bearing on my experience, but how would I have been treated by their government if I had acted in such a way in Saudi Arabia. I would probably still be in prison or worse.

Quote:

---

It sounds like you would not trust an entire nation of people based on your experiences with one group of soldiers. Would you base your view of Americans on one group of torturers from Abu Graib?

---

I don't know, ask Al Jeezera. Perhaps if they would not represent us as nothing more than infidel "Crusaders" who deserve nothing but death merely because we aren't Muslim, than perhaps I could agree to meet them half way. Turn about is fair play.

Quote:

---

By the way, have you renounced the US invasion of Iraq?

---

I am very opposed to the invasion of Iraq on principal. I will not go so far as to renounce it because I believe that some good can come from it despite the Hypocricy of the Bush administration's claims of humanitarian intervention there. I am well aware of the imperialistic motives behind Bush's little war. I, unlike you, will probably, due to my asscociation with the military, be made to actually participate in this affair. I don't blame anyone but myself for that, but I am honor bound to see that I do all I can to support it despite my feelings.

The little group which was flying the planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were all mostly Saudi individuals. It seems that they were also "students" here as well for a time. From that day on, I have always felt that any Saudi "students" are suspect until their government comes clean with us about this "Osama" character. Somebody in that country knows exactly where he is I am sure. In the meantime I should be very cautious in my dealings with any of them.

Am I bitter? Just a little. Just be glad for your Saudi freinds that I was not the President on September 12th, 2001.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Redleg

It seems you have not read some of Rotorgun's posts are you wouldn't of wrote such a statement. :oops:

---

Thank you Redleg, I know that you and I are on the opposite sides of many arguments, but I appreciate your pointing this out. Mr. Tachikaze would be suprised to know that I am actually a liberal myself, a conservative one yes, but a liberal no doubt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vladimir

I would like to reinforce Rotorgun's statement. A disproportionately large number of foreign students, mostly from the middle east, mostly from the Kingdom of Saud, are sent here to collect information. It's been going on for a while and takes advantage of the general naïveté attitude college students and professors have on the world. These are the same type of people that wondered: "Why do they hate us?" after 9/11.

To counter that I believe that everyone should be judged as an individual and treated accordingly. However one of the greatest threats to our security, is/are foreign students.

---

Thank you Vladimir. I hate to lecture to you my good freind Tachikaze, but what he is referring to is called a fifth column in military parlance. You know, those little spy dudes you send snooping around when you play RTW ? Except these are possibly leading to the deaths of some of your fellow countrymen. Oh yes, be assured that Al Queida has infiltrated the ranks of the collegiate world.
:eeeek:

Wow you guys are absolutely wonderful, you know that? :dizzy2:

I didn't know student in colleges would become a fifth column of spies that would potentially destroy the entire US military and command by spying from other students.

Also rotorgun, just one question, what sort of narcotics did the guy ask for, and was he really interested in anything else besides narcotics?

I know alot of people who take light stuff, marijuana, qatt, hash in the army, including US navy personnel since i have trained with them in my five year career, its rather harmless.

Quote:

---

I don't know, ask Al Jeezera. Perhaps if they would not represent us as nothing more than infidel "Crusaders" who deserve nothing but death merely because we aren't Muslim, than perhaps I could agree to meet them half way. Turn about is fair play.

---

This baffles me the most, where in al jazeera do they term anyone infidel crusaders?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by faisal

I didn't know student in colleges would become a fifth column of spies that would potentially destroy the entire US military and command by spying from other students.

---

Hah ... I bet those Iranians (and other muslims ... actually they are all the same anyway) who I studied chemistry with are now (yes, RIGHT NOW!) using their acquired knowledge to build WMDs ... actually I even have the suspicion that, when we went out for a drink in the evening, they were a bit pre-occupied trying to figure out where to plant a bomb in the pub.

Sneaky guys ... if I ever meet them again :furious3:

(end of sarcasm) :juggle2:

[QUOTE=faisal]Wow you guys are absolutely wonderful, you know that? :dizzy2:[/QOUTE]
Thank you, we do what we can you know. :juggle2:

Quote:

---

I didn't know student in colleges would become a fifth column of spies that would potentially destroy the entire US military and command by spying from other students.

---

Well, that's a bit of a stretch, but in case you didn't know it, the most smallest bits of information can be strung together from many scources to make up a larger intelligence picture; the accurate picture that the Japenese had of the Pacific fleet on the verge of the attack at Pearl Harbor is one instance. I am not generalizing by saying that some of the students could very well be plants from the enemies of the United States. I apologize for seeming to stereotype. Can you account for the whereabouts and activities of every student? I daresay that you cannot.

Quote:

---

Also rotorgun, just one question, what sort of narcotics did the guy ask for, and was he really interested in anything else besides narcotics?

---

He wanted me to get him some cocaine. Oh yes, and to find him some prostitutes as well.

Quote:

---

I know alot of people who take light stuff, marijuana, qatt, hash in the army, including US navy personnel since i have trained with them in my five year career, its rather harmless.

---

Perhaps, but as I told him, it is against my religous beliefs and moral character to abide such a thing. To his credit, he did not push the issue, but I could tell that I was persona non grata with him from that moment on. I will not judge those who you have known to use drugs, and I would be naive to think that what you say is not true. I just do not approve of there use, do you?

Quote:

---

This baffles me the most, where in al jazeera do they term anyone infidel crusaders?

---

This is what they have reported Osama Bin Laden and Al Mosaui to have called us. Do you remember the graphic video of Al Mosaui beheading innocent people and Osam Bin Laden threatening us with more attacks? We are clearly referred to as "Crusaders" in several of the videos. Didn't Al Jezeera play those parts of the videos?

In any case, thank you for your stimulating questions. May God Bless you in your Naval career.
:bow:

Quote:

---

Well, that's a bit of a stretch, but in case you didn't know it, the most smallest bits of information can be strung together from many scources to make up a larger intelligence picture; the accurate picture that the Japenese had of the Pacific fleet on the verge of the attack at Pearl Harbor is one instance. I am not generalizing by saying that some of the students could very well be plants from the enemies of the United States. I apologize for seeming to stereotype. Can you account for the whereabouts and activities of every student? I daresay that you cannot.

---

But this is not World War II, the US military can't risk letting information go through to universities, unless you are saying some of the saudis were just being suspicious around some sensitive military areas, you got a point by then.

Quote:

---

He wanted me to get him some cocaine. Oh yes, and to find him some prostitutes as well.

---

Why did he ask you of all people? it just seems weird someone would ask for coke and women out of the blue and on the first day of meeting you.

Quote:

---

Perhaps, but as I told him, it is against my religous beliefs and moral character to abide such a thing. To his credit, he did not push the issue, but I could tell that I was persona non grata with him from that moment on. I will not judge those who you have known to use drugs, and I would be naive to think that what you say is not true. I just do not approve of there use, do you?

---

You know, i don't blame you, but if i was in your place, i wouldn't bust that guy's secret.

Look, even in Islam, drugs and prostitution is bad, i have morals too, but you know the saying "live and let live", thats exactly my motto in life, i don't like to jeopardise other peoples careers becuase of a minor and pointless issue like drugs and women, especially when they won't harm me. The guy you described seemed like this one who used to be in my unit, just after training he keeps to his own in a corner wanking to pin-ups of naked women in burkas and smoking pot, utterly disgusting but also harmless.

Quote:

---

This is what they have reported Osama Bin Laden and Al Mosaui to have called us. Do you remember the graphic video of Al Mosaui beheading innocent people and Osam Bin Laden threatening us with more attacks? We are clearly referred to as "Crusaders" in several of the videos. Didn't Al Jezeera play those parts of the videos?

---

Well the beheadings weren't fully broadcasted, you don't actually see people getting their heads cut off.

And unless you missed it, at one Baghdad bob claimed al Jazeera are actually US agents broadcasting pro-us propaganda. In my honest opinion they probably stumbled on the right path in that war for both sides to criticise them that hard.

The thing is Al Jazeera just broadcasts what they receive, its one form of sensationalist media if you ask me, they just don't stick to the US side of the conflict they broadcast both sides (much like the BBC). What they report does not reflect their viewpoint.

Quote:

---

In any case, thank you for your stimulating questions. May God Bless you in your Naval career.

---

Thank you :bow: not in the army anymore however, just was a voluntary period of 5 years doing humanitarian work in dangerous locations.

First of all faisal, thank you for reaching out in such a way as to restore me to some sort of rational viewpoint. I apologise to you and Tachikaze as well, if I have seemed narrow minded and bigoted. The wounds of that September morning in 2001 are very deep. I still cannot bring myself to watch any video from that day. I still weep when I see the people jumping out of the buildings every time that I watch it. I shouldn't let it cloud my reason so. Forgive me for any unkindnesses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by faisal

But this is not World War II, the US military can't risk letting information go through to universities, unless you are saying some of the saudis were just being suspicious around some sensitive military areas, you got a point by then.

---

That is a valid point, and no, I don't have any imformation regarding any such activities. I am just stating that it is only prudent for our intelligence people to be watchful. Surely anyone can see why there is such an atmosphere of suspicion? How would the people of your country react to such a situation?

Quote:

---

Why did he ask you of all people? it just seems weird someone would ask for coke and women out of the blue and on the first day of meeting you.

---

That is what I asked myself as well. It made no sense. Perhaps he saw mistook me as an easy mark.

Quote:

---

You know, i don't blame you, but if i was in your place, i wouldn't bust that guy's secret.

---

Believe me when I say that it took much soul searching for me to do so. I was aware of what trouble I was causing him when he returned home. I just felt that it was rather odd, as you yourself have affirmed. I guess I just love my country, and don't care to have my honor as a soldier and a Christian violated. It really made me feel very cheap.

Quote:

---

Look, even in Islam, drugs and prostitution is bad, i have morals too, but you know the saying "live and let live", thats exactly my motto in life, i don't like to jeopardise other peoples careers becuase of a minor and pointless issue like drugs and women, especially when they won't harm me. The guy you described seemed like this one who used to be in my unit, just after training he keeps to his own in a corner wanking to pin-ups of naked women in burkas and smoking pot, utterly disgusting but also harmless.

---

Point taken. I am sorry that I misjudged you as just another fanatic Muslim. I realize now that you are most likely a decent fellow who can forgive the faults of others. As I have said, perhaps it was my wounded honor which motivated my actions. I am willing enough to admit my own faults. I am a very proud man sometimes. It probably comes from my French ancestry.
:wall:

Quote:

---

Well the beheadings weren't fully broadcasted, you don't actually see people getting their heads cut off.

---

I have seen the uncut versions. Barbaric, to say the least.

Quote:

---

And unless you missed it, at one Baghdad bob claimed al Jazeera are actually US agents broadcasting pro-us propaganda. In my honest opinion they probably stumbled on the right path in that war for both sides to criticise them that hard.

---

How so? What do you mean here?

Quote:

---

The thing is Al Jazeera just broadcasts what they receive, its one form of sensationalist media if you ask me, they just don't stick to the US side of the conflict they broadcast both sides (much like the BBC). What they report does not reflect their viewpoint.

---

Agreed. CNN, FOX, and MSN all do the same thing as well.

Quote:

---

Thank you :bow: not in the army anymore however, just was a voluntary period of 5 years doing humanitarian work in dangerous locations.

---

Your welcome. I am glad to meet another humanitarian, despite my misgivings about the current situation. :shakehands:

Tachi Im glad you have nice students. To often in these suitations people rely on stereotypes or biggoted opinons or a snippet on a cnn they saw once on how islams eat children. Muslims do the same as well. The reason is no one is willing to man up in both countries. No one has the balls to stand up and say yes i screwed up instead we get mutual hatered and polticians who say they will drive out the infidel or destroy the axis of evil. Instead of being diplomatic talk of war and hate surronds us diplomacy be damned what once was an important step in constructive talks is now something to be stepped over. We work at for a coupla weeks and say screw it lets go git em. Both sides think the other will lose and they are both right. No one can win this the islams will not pervial. They do not have enough power to take on the west. Neither the west with Islam. Hatered of the west isnt limited to a few indivudals its an idea and a very powerful one. Its the same reason why young men join gangs here. They misplace there grief poverty and anger into some grand idea which does nothing for them. Education will help some but it cannot help all. The US Civil war ended 141 years ago and supposedly bigotry obvisuly it didnt. We will always fight this battle but we cant fight it like this

Tachi:

Living and teaching in the DC Metro area for a time, I would have to agree with you that Middle Eastern born students were usually polite, and this was true regardless of whether they hailed from Saudi, from Lebanon, from the West Bank, or from Iran (B'Hai).

The documented sexism of most muslim cultures does seem to be changing, and the students of your experience may well be (and hopefully are) the harbingers of a brighter future. Western culture too was dismissive of women until late in the 19th century, and women are only now approaching parity in salaries and opportunities. Who is to say that the muslim world is not on a similar path?

I do wish that more of the fringe elements of the Muslim world would turn away from violence in the name of religion. Western culture too had its problems with this -- for centuries -- but has largely gotten past this issue. In this, the Muslim world is lagging, but a majority of the Muslim faith almost certainly does share an abhorence of violence as a tool for promoting their faith.

I disagree with Rotor' about Iraq, because I think an "imperialist" effort would have been far better at squelching the terrorist/insurgent opposition and would have prepared for it better. Iraq seems to me to be a genuine effort to further the long-term goals of the USA, but pursued with limited knowledge of the region and a lot of minimalism -- and possibly begun based on poor data from the outset.

Rotor' is quite probably correct about the "5th column" effort he experienced. The Saudi was likely doing his job to secure an intelligence source. Even if he was not, he represented a potential security risk for the USA just by encouraging/promoting a prohibited activity. Rotor made the correct response.

Has Al-Queda "infiltrated" U.S. colleges? Probably, though AQ may well be recruiting operatives and sending them here or recruiting them after they've come here on their own. Given their mission, it would be an intelligent use of the efforts since part of the training for the operative would be accomplished at enemy expense. Does this mean that many such infiltrators exist? Almost certainly not. Moreover, terrorist organizations are almost certainly not the only players in this game. Given the nature of the intelligence game, I hope the CIA and NSA are doing their best to recruit these students as sources of information for our purposes...though I worry that we're too in love with satelite cameras and not focused enough on human sources.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

The documented sexism of most muslim cultures does seem to be changing, and the students of your experience may well be (and hopefully are) the harbingers of a brighter future. Western culture too was dismissive of women until late in the 19th century, and women are only now approaching parity in salaries and opportunities. Who is to say that the muslim world is not on a similar path?

---

I totaly agree with you here on this Seamus. The west should look to its own house first before trying to change the culture of the Middle East. Change is always difficult for any culture, especially a conservative one, and I think we should applaude the efforts of our Muslim brothers thus far. Many Muslim women seem to prefer the role that they have to remain unchanged as well. It is an issue best left for the Muslim world to deal with in their own way.

Quote:

---

I do wish that more of the fringe elements of the Muslim world would turn away from violence in the name of religion. Western culture too had its problems with this -- for centuries -- but has largely gotten past this issue. In this, the Muslim world is lagging, but a majority of the Muslim faith almost certainly does share an abhorence of violence as a tool for promoting their faith.

---

Thank you for reminding me of my poor manners in not remembering this. I have read some of the Koran (Praise be upon it), and its teachimgs are by and large peaceful.

Quote:

---

I disagree with Rotor' about Iraq, because I think an "imperialist" effort would have been far better at squelching the terrorist/insurgent opposition and would have prepared for it better. Iraq seems to me to be a genuine effort to further the long-term goals of the USA, but pursued with limited knowledge of the region and a lot of minimalism -- and possibly begun based on poor data from the outset.

---

As always Seamus, you are the consummate gentleman when you do disagree. I shall respect your difference of opinion with grace. Despite my feelings of bitterness over the whole mess, I do fervently hope and pray that "All things work for good, to those who love the Lord" will apply to our efforts throughout the region.

Quote:

---

Rotor' is quite probably correct about the "5th column" effort he experienced. The Saudi was likely doing his job to secure an intelligence source. Even if he was not, he represented a potential security risk for the USA just by encouraging/promoting a prohibited activity. Rotor made the correct response.

---

Thank you. :bow: I was really only reacting the way I have been trained to. I'm sure that all can understand my viewpoint. At the time, it had no bearing on the way that I felt towards the other Saudis present. I actually felt a bit ashamed for them that one of their comrades had acted in such a fashion. May God forgive me if I made an incorrect judgement.

Quote:

---

Has Al-Queda "infiltrated" U.S. colleges? Probably, though AQ may well be recruiting operatives and sending them here or recruiting them after they've come here on their own. Given their mission, it would be an intelligent use of the efforts since part of the training for the operative would be accomplished at enemy expense. Does this mean that many such infiltrators exist? Almost certainly not. Moreover, terrorist organizations are almost certainly not the only players in this game. Given the nature of the intelligence game, I hope the CIA and NSA are doing their best to recruit these students as sources of information for our purposes...though I worry that we're too in love with satelite cameras and not focused enough on human sources.

---

Once again Seamus, you have eloquently presented what I so poorly, in my brusk, soldierly manner stated so poorly. That I stereotyped the entire Muslim world in the process was unforgivable. I allowed myself to be governed by my passions instead of my intellect. Yes faisal and Tachi, I did overstate the case. I never meant to imply that every Muslim visitor to our shores is an espionage agent. I only wanted to point out that it is one way that Al Quieda, and other such groups could infiltrate our society. I am sorry that our country must make things inconvenient for your students Tachikaze, but there is too much at stake for us to fail to protect ourselves because of it. Please convey this sentiment to your students, and ask for their patience and understanding. I will pray for them in my daily orations to my God.

Quote:

---

How so? What do you mean here?

---

Well i might be exaggerating, but they seem to be unbiased concerning journalism, much like the BBC, in my opinion that is.

Quote:

---

Your welcome. I am glad to meet another humanitarian, despite my misgivings about the current situation.

---

I'm glad this turned out so well :bow:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by faisal

Well i might be exaggerating, but they seem to be unbiased concerning journalism, much like the BBC, in my opinion that is.

---

Of course. How could I miss something so obvious. :stupido: I do remember seeing a special about Al Jezeera awhile back, and they did have a segment where opposing sides got to air their differences. I was a little surprised to learn that this was allowed. I do feel that, like western journalism tends to have a western bais, Al Jezeera does tend to appeal to your Muslim culture more. It is inevitable.

Quote:

---

I'm glad this turned out so well :bow:

---

We are much in your debt as you did a great deal to bring such an outcome about. Thank you for guiding me back to a more objective point of view. As I looked over my earlier posts for this thread I realized how bigoted I must have appeared. It is only through intellectual dialouge that our cultures will come to a better understanding.

Salem al lekum (not sure of the spelling here) ~;)

Has it ever occurred to anyone in this thread that these Saudi students are just like good, decent people everywhere else on this planet, regardless of ethnic or political background?

Let me clearly state that this is the result of the actions of one individual. While not a Saudi, this story has relevance to our topic:

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/in_th...?doc_id=372835

Quote:

---

On February 28, Al-Arian -- formerly a tenured associate professor of computer engineering at the University of South Florida -- entered a guilty plea to conspiracy to procuring "funds, goods, or services to or for the benefit of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a Specially Designated Terrorist [Organization], in violation of 18 U.S.C. §371."

---

I LOVE this statement by the judge:

Quote:

---

Dr. Al-Arian, as usual, you speak very eloquently. I find it interesting that here in public in front of everyone you praised this country, the same country that in private you referred to as "the great Satan." ...You are a master manipulator.

You looked your neighbors in the eyes and said you had nothing to do with the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. This trial exposed that as a lie.... The evidence was clear in this case that you were a leader of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad...

When Iran, the major funding source of the PIJ, became upset because the PIJ could not account for how it was spending its money, it was to your board of directors that it went to demand changes. Iran wanted its representative to have a say in how its money was spent. To stop that, you leaped into action. You offered to rewrite the bylaws of the organization...

But when it came to blowing up women and children on buses, did you leap into action then? ... No. You lifted not one finger, made not one phone call. To the contrary, you laughed when you heard about the bombings, what you euphemistically call "operations"...

And yet, still in the face of your own words, you continue to lie to your friends and supporters, claiming to abhor violence and to seek only aid for widows and orphans. Your only connection to widows and orphans is that you create them, even among the Palestinians; and you create them, not by sending your children to blow themselves out of existence. No. You exhort others to send their children... You are indeed a master manipulator.

---

I'm sure he was polite and respectful as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

Has it ever occurred to anyone in this thread that these Saudi students are just like good, decent people everywhere else on this planet, regardless of ethnic or political background?

---

You are aware of the problem, aren't you DemArch ~:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rotorgun

The west should look to its own house first before trying to change the culture of the Middle East. Change is always difficult for any culture, especially a conservative one, and I think we should applaude the efforts of our Muslim brothers thus far. Many Muslim women seem to prefer the role that they have to remain unchanged as well. It is an issue best left for the Muslim world to deal with in their own way.

---

This is, perhaps, the most intelligent thing I've read in this thread.
:bow:

Oops, another one:

Naughty Teacher!

Quote:

---

BRISBANE, Australia, May 11 (UPI) -- A high school teacher has been arrested in Brisbane for allegedly planning terrorist attacks.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rotorgun

First of all faisal, thank you for reaching out in such a way as to restore me to some sort of rational viewpoint. I apologise to you and Tachikaze as well, if I have seemed narrow minded and bigoted. The wounds of that September morning in 2001 are very deep. I still cannot bring myself to watch any video from that day. I still weep when I see the people jumping out of the buildings every time that I watch it. I shouldn't let it cloud my reason so. Forgive me for any unkindnesses.

---

First of all, thank you for taking the time to clarify things. It's good that forumers understand each other as best as possible.

I don't watch videos of the WTC attacks. I am overcome with emotion at the very thought of people plunging to their deaths. Except for one magazine cover photo I accidentally saw, and the tiny person that can be seen falling while the second plane hits, I have been lucky not to actually see any of those images.

I lost someone I knew when the Tower Two collapsed. However, I believe she died suddenly before she was aware of what hit her.

In spite of all of that, I don't connect those horrors with hatred of the criminals that committed them. I think only of the victims' and families' fears and pain. I don't care about the nationality of the attackers. To me, they are criminals who don't represent any nation, religion, or culture.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Redleg

What you are seeing Tachikaze is a bubble. Find out the social-economic status of your students, and you might discover the validity of your point.

---

I'll bet the number of Saudis that fit in the "bubble" I'm seeing is much larger than the bubble the Al Qaeda members occupy.

People in the US are much more willing to generalize the tiny terrorist bubble than the bubble of my students. They seem to be predisposed to believe the negative images of Saudis, and Arabs in general, than the positive ones. The government reinforces and feeds this.

One of my students comes from a farm. I don't know his economic level, but he is certainly no urban managerial type.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tachikaze

First of all, thank you for taking the time to clarify things. It's good that forumers understand each other as best as possible.

I don't watch videos of the WTC attacks. I am overcome with emotion at the very thought of people plunging to their deaths. Except for one magazine cover photo I accidentally saw, and the tiny person that can be seen falling while the second plane hits, I have been lucky not to actually see any of those images.

I lost someone I knew when the Tower Two collapsed. However, I believe she died suddenly before she was aware of what hit her.

In spite of all of that, I don't connect those horrors with hatred of the criminals that committed them. I think only of the victims' and families' fears and pain. I don't care about the nationality of the attackers. To me, they are criminals who don't represent any nation, religion, or culture.

---

Now this is brilliant! Classic! If I ever need to prove to someone that academics are oblivious to the world around them, I will quote you. If you won't open your eyes to horror, don't look at politically incorrect indicators like ethnicity and religion, and think of these people as criminals, then there is no taking you seriously on this matter.

First: Shielding yourself to horrific actions won't make you more objective because your emotions may influence your reactions. Judging by what you said am I correct in thinking that you avoid pictures of the NAZI holocaust for the same reason? The only thing this will lead you to do is ignore reality. Not seeing the images will only make the actions easier to deny.

Secondly: For some misguided reason you choose to ignore indicators that can tell you about a person's intent. Do you do the same for others who commit such heinous acts like child molestation and rape? You can’t consider EVERYONE a suspect so you need to look for indicators. Whether they are age, gender, ethnicity, or religions beliefs there must be some way to narrow the scope of your investigation. By that same token, such characteristics as those must only serve to aid an investigation and must not be used to determine guilt. The DC sniper case is a prime example: The “experts” were predicting a white male when the culprits were two black, Muslim males.

Finally: Criminals are they? What set of laws do they fall under? Who’s jurisdiction? Are they presumed innocent until proven guilty as in American law, or should they be judged by the laws of their home country? I think you’ll find it difficult to prosecute the 9/11 hijackers. Who should we go after then? Should we have the NYPD or FBI go and arrest Bin Laden? These terrorists, or unlawful combatants, operated under the protection of a foreign government and therefore outside our jurisdiction. Good luck with the World Court. The only way the case will be tried there is if we capture these people. Besides, anyone that goes before the court is more likely to die of old age than face justice. This legal approach is the one we took after the ’93 Trade Center bombings and was a failure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tachikaze

I'll bet the number of Saudis that fit in the "bubble" I'm seeing is much larger than the bubble the Al Qaeda members occupy.

---

I would hope so.

Quote:

---

People in the US are much more willing to generalize the tiny terrorist bubble than the bubble of my students. They seem to be predisposed to believe the negative images of Saudis, and Arabs in general, than the positive ones. The government reinforces and feeds this.

---

Speak for yourself - I don't generalize Saudi's nor Arabs. I weigh the actions of the individual more then the content of the group. Your making the same generalization of Americans that you believe is happening toward another group.

Hello Pot meet Kettle.

Quote:

---

One of my students comes from a farm. I don't know his economic level, but he is certainly no urban managerial type.

---

You might want to ask what type of farm, and where he falls in. You might be surprised.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vladimir

Now this is brilliant! Classic! If I ever need to prove to someone that academics are oblivious to the world around them, I will quote you. If you won't open your eyes to horror, don't look at politically incorrect indicators like ethnicity and religion, and think of these people as criminals, then there is no taking you seriously on this matter.

First: Shielding yourself to horrific actions won't make you more objective because your emotions may influence your reactions. Judging by what you said am I correct in thinking that you avoid pictures of the NAZI holocaust for the same reason? The only thing this will lead you to do is ignore reality. Not seeing the images will only make the actions easier to deny.

Secondly: For some misguided reason you choose to ignore indicators that can tell you about a person's intent. Do you do the same for others who commit such heinous acts like child molestation and rape? You can’t consider EVERYONE a suspect so you need to look for indicators. Whether they are age, gender, ethnicity, or religions beliefs there must be some way to narrow the scope of your investigation. By that same token, such characteristics as those must only serve to aid an investigation and must not be used to determine guilt. The DC sniper case is a prime example: The “experts” were predicting a white male when the culprits were two black, Muslim males.

Finally: Criminals are they? What set of laws do they fall under? Who’s jurisdiction? Are they presumed innocent until proven guilty as in American law, or should they be judged by the laws of their home country? I think you’ll find it difficult to prosecute the 9/11 hijackers. Who should we go after then? Should we have the NYPD or FBI go and arrest Bin Laden? These terrorists, or unlawful combatants, operated under the protection of a foreign government and therefore outside our jurisdiction. Good luck with the World Court. The only way the case will be tried there is if we capture these people. Besides, anyone that goes before the court is more likely to die of old age than face justice. This legal approach is the one we took after the ’93 Trade Center bombings and was a failure.

---

I can't be shielded from the images of the WTC demolition. I watched the whole thing as it happened.

The reason is not that my emotions will control my actions. It is because I am too sensitive to the suffering of others to watch it. I don't make a point of looking at auto accidents, for instance.

Emotions should not be a factor in how we regard the attacks. The emotional impact does not change what the highjackers did. I know people got terrified; I know people got blown to pieces; I know people got burned alive; I know people got crushed. The same could have happened of an airline pilot accidentally flew into a skyscraper.

But, I'm a person who feels that attempted murder warrants the same penulty as a successful murder. In other words, it's not the result that determines the seriousness of a crime, it's the intent.

We are talking about Saudi Arabia in this thread, and there is no evidence that the Saudi government or its people supported the attacks. The highjackers were criminals. They commited a crime, not an act of war. Whether they were sheltered by the (non-Arab, non-Saudi) Taliban government or not, I haven't seen evidence that they sanctioned the attacks as a government who engages in a war does.

Whether or not the hijackers can be successfully prosecuted or not, they are criminals. They were not acting in the employ of a national government, and certainly not the Saudi government.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tachikaze

Religious

Every day, five times a day, the Muslim students in my school wash their hands, feet, and faces, find an empty classroom (usually mine), put down a rug, turn towards Mecca and pray together. A husband and wife pray at a separate time and room.

This selfless activity touches me. While the rest of us are out satisfying our hungry stomachs, they take the time to pray patiently in a communal way before eating.

---

I'm curious. Do they pray 5 times a day while at school? Or is it more spread out, say twice at school, once before, once after, once before bed? And if they do pray at school, are they ever late and need excuses to get to class?

Azi

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azi Tohak

I'm curious. Do they pray 5 times a day while at school? Or is it more spread out, say twice at school, once before, once after, once before bed? And if they do pray at school, are they ever late and need excuses to get to class?

Azi

---

I have already noticed that I worded my earlier post incorrectly. They pray twice at school, once before school, and twice afterwards. The prayer at lunch time is apparently of special importance, for it is more organized and communal.

They normally are not late for class due to their prayers. If a Saudi student is late, they don't tell us the reason, so we can't excuse them for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tachikaze

I can't be shielded from the images of the WTC demolition.

---

I beleive the proper term is "attack".