553 years ago...

Finally checked my sources...the population was at least 50,000, probably closer to 60,000, but mostly merchants, academics, and impoverished former landowners and the like. Not very 'trainable', I suspect. They had about 5,000 Greek troops and a couple of thousand European mercenaries including an Italian siege expert, but by the last few days of the siege this must have dropped considerably, so 4,000 professional soldiers might be right. I expect the civilian population helped where it could, but the Turks were sending in Janissaries and the like, so civilians would not have been much use.

They REFUSED to help. They didn't agree with the Emperor because of the unification with the Catholic Church.

Anyhow, the number of Greeks was about 4000 men and some 4000 mercenaries also to defend the city. Mehmed II had about 80.000 men to attack the city. :skull:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

They REFUSED to help. They didn't agree with the Emperor because of the unification with the Catholic Church.

Anyhow, the number of Greeks was about 4000 men and some 4000 mercenaries also to defend the city. Mehmed II had about 80.000 men to attack the city. :skull:

---

Ah, that's right...bit silly of them really. The Emperor had tried to strike a desperate deal with the Catholic church in return for aid...

Thanks for the numbers!

Very interesting situation, far more complex than it appears.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

...the great Constantinople, capital of the Eastern Roman Empire and later, Byzantine Empire, was conquered by the Ottoman Turks, under the rule of Mehmed II the Conqueror(Fatih). :shame:

Let us comemorate this moment, as it is definitely a turning point in world history. :book:

---

Tuesday is when it happened and in Greece tuesday is an unlucky day

actually what friday the 13th is for europeans Tuesday the 13th is for Greeks cause it was Tuesday when the City fell and 1+4+5+3=13
also many interesting myths followed the fall such as the ''stoned king'' according to it an angel took Constantine from battlefield when all was lost hiden him in a cave and turned him to stone with the promise to bring him to life the day that City will be regained. Somekind of Arthurian style legend.

Very interesting is the refference where the emperor fighting in a horde of Turks seeing everything lost cried out ''Isnt here any Christian to take my head?''. I believe one of the most lyric lines ever.
The byzantine emperors did many mistakes in the last centuries of the empire that costed dearly. Constantine's actions i thing are the best way to try right those wrongs. He cant do much. he cant do anything basically except keping a stance that reflects something of the heroic homeric/classical age. His writen response to the Sultan is not the one of a despote/emperor but closer to the ancient greek spirit that Leonidas symbolised. And his death in the battle instead of leaving like thief and abandon his people rightly puts him in the heroic pantheon.

he was brave ill give him that. Charged straight into the breach

The fall was nothing but the dying breath of a decrepit old empire. In this dying breath, however, the Eastern Romans showed some of the flair, tenacity and doggedness with which they had carved out their spot in history.

Yet it was inevitable. If not in 1453 it would have happened a few years later; it could have happened in 1405 had Timur not come along to cut a few Ottoman and Serbian heads.

It was a fitting end. The Byzantines refused to bow down to the Europeans and put aside their beliefs and ancient practices for prosperity, and kept true to their principles to the very end. The fall is that last ironic flash of Roman virtue after so long a darkness.

And since then, the Armenians were considered as loyal as Christians could be by the Ottomans... That is until the young Turks, but that is a lesson for a different day.

Actually, the legend is the called "The Marble Emperor". The angel took him in a cave, and there he turned into marble until Constantinople is back on track. Myths, myths and myths.... :book:

Quote:

---

Actually, the legend is the called "The Marble Emperor". The angel took him in a cave, and there he turned into marble until Constantinople is back on track. Myths, myths and myths....

---

IIRC, the Armenians themselves have a similar legend about their last king from the line of the House of Sassoun, one Meher, who as punishment for wounding his own father in a duel was made to spend eternity in a cave near Lake Van, and would only be allowed out again when the earth is freed of all sin...part of a fascinating set of semi-legendary stories about Armenian kings called the Saga of Sassoun. So I wonder if this is where that story comes from...?

Th3 same with the Santa Sophia legend. It's said that all of the people who were inside the cathedral when the Turks entered, they became "encased" into the altar, and they shall return when the cathedral is Christian again.

:inquisitive:

Almost every people have a story of a legendary king who will return to save/lead his people in their hour of need. Arthur is just the most famour one, mainly because Hollywood got hold of him.

The Final fall of Constantinople was a very sad day and it alway makes me emotional.

I wanna spend 29th of May 2008 in Istanbul, because it will be 555 years....

For a CHinese like me, the fall of Constantinople is an emotional event for me too.

Beautiful Byzantium, Beautiful Byzantium. Queen of Cities.

Could you imagine how glorious Sancta Sophia would be if it was given to the custodianship of the Ecumenical Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, after all, it is a museum today and not a mosque. Only bigoted and unprogressive Muslims would oppose transfer of a former church to its original use, a church. Imagine the ceiling of the dome restored to its lustrous wonder. Imagine a huge jewelled cross hanging in the air across the roof? And of course, a huge iconostasis!

It would be a great endorsement of Turkey's democracy and image around the world and serve as a big tick towards moderate Islam.

Greeks are told to forget the past, but how can anyone forget the Sancta Sophia?

Agreed, it would speak well of Turkey if they returned the Hagia Sophia to the church.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

Anything between 50,000-100,000, depending on the sources. Which was not all that many really, given the size. The population had been in decline for years after the Fourth Crusade and various plagues. London at the same time probably had 70-80,000. I have a source at home which I shall check this evening. Possibly half the population were killed or enslaved during the sack.

The Fall of Big C has always reminded me of Minas Tirith in LotR, the tail-end of a great empire, the half-empty city full of ancient buildings and wonders, the hordes at the gate...wonder if Tolkien made it a conscious parallel?

---

I'm pretty sure he was making a parallel. One empire split into two Arnor and Gondor, Arnor falls and becomes independent kingdoms fighting each other. Gonder controls Harad. Harad almost conqueres Gondor but is beaten by the cavalry charge of the Rohorrin.

Would be cool to have St. Sophia turned into a church again.

About Tolkien: It's possible. I remember the third film of the Lord of the Rings and especially how Gandalf defended Minas Tirit. Sixty years before falling of Constantonople a Bulgarian patriarch called Evtimius defended the Bulgarian capital Tzarevgrad Tyrnov ( or the city of the tzars Tyrnovo) when his master, tzar Ivan Shishman, left the city before the siege. (But the tzar was not weak he was just trying to negotiate with Hungarians.). Now Evtimius is something like a national hero and a symbol of the resistance of Bulgarian state against the Ottoman Turks. And the interesting fact is Bulgaria at that time was separated into two countries ruled by tzars and one ruled by despot.

edyz, I'm not quite sure the citizens of Constantinople were passive. As far as I know even the women and the monks ( orthodox monks) helped to the defenders. Just the Greek population was not enough ( I think 50 000 were the population in earlier period (second part of XIVth century) ). And a significant part of the citizens were non-Greeks.

Ooops, I doubled my post. Not good

About Tolkien: It's possible. I remember the third film of the Lord of the Rings and especially how Gandalf defended Minas Tirit. Sixty years before falling of Constantonople a Bulgarian patriarch called Evtimius defended the Bulgarian capital Tzarevgrad Tyrnov ( or the city of the tzars Tyrnovo) when his master, tzar Ivan Shishman, left the city before the siege. (But the tzar was not weak he was just trying to negotiate with Hungarians.). Now Evtimius is something like a national hero and a symbol of the resistance of Bulgarian state against the Ottoman Turks. And the interesting fact is Bulgaria at that time was separated into two countries ruled by tzars and one ruled by despot.

edyz, I'm not quite sure the citizens of Constantinople were passive. As far as I know even the women and the monks ( orthodox monks) helped to the defenders. Just the Greek population was not enough ( I think 50 000 were the population in earlier period (second part of XIVth century) ). And a significant part of the citizens were non-Greeks.

Double post. :grin:

Most of them helped, but many refused. Also, the Genoese sold themselves to the Turks, and much needed help was refused.

I'm pretty sure the civilians were used like in most sieges to bring water food and supplies to the defenders and help to repair the holes in the wall created by Urbans cannon.

It is a good mark for the end of the medieval period. The last ties to the classical world were severed with the end of the 'Roman Empire'. I believe the Empire of Trebizond remained independent from the Ottoman Turks for a few years after the fall of Constantinople and claimed the title of the 'Roman Empire'.

Well if it hadn't fallen the Italians would have kept up their black sea trade and probably not have felt the need to go west, Europe's discovery of the Americas might have been delayed a few years if Constantinople hadn't fallen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spmetla

I'm pretty sure the civilians were used like in most sieges to bring water food and supplies to the defenders and help to repair the holes in the wall created by Urbans cannon.

It is a good mark for the end of the medieval period. The last ties to the classical world were severed with the end of the 'Roman Empire'. I believe the Empire of Trebizond remained independent from the Ottoman Turks for a few years after the fall of Constantinople and claimed the title of the 'Roman Empire'.

Well if it hadn't fallen the Italians would have kept up their black sea trade and probably not have felt the need to go west, Europe's discovery of the Americas might have been delayed a few years if Constantinople hadn't fallen.

---

I have an interesting idea about this 'if' scenario. If Byzantium hadn't fallen at all. That means that byz would have never lost Minor Asia ( or at least that part of it depicted in MTW as 'Nicaea'). Then maybe byz society would have succeeded in creating its own bourgeois which with more help of the government can become a rivals on the powerful but separated Genoa and Venice ( who later were attacked by the new powers of Habsburgs and France for domination in Italy). So maybe the Italian hegemony will not last forever. And of course Trabzon would have been conquered back to byzantium. But this is another topic... And according to my secret plan this scenario (as a background however) will be used by me in my story 'Byzantine intrigues'( first half of XIVth century)which should have appeared in the Mead hall by the end of the year. All rights reserved :2thumbsup: .
Be free to comment ( but I hope we will not go off the topic).

In many ways, it was a good thing that the Ottomans finally took the city, for although Constantinople was the last remnant of the great Roman Empire, it was nothing more than that, a mere shred of the glory it had once possessed. For centuries before the city fell to Mehmed's cannons, the city was already about as dead as something can get. Years of abuse by Crusaders and other barbarians had made sure Byzantium could never rise again. But the Ottomans restored the city to at least some of its former glory. At least Constantinople was now stable under the rule of the formidable Ottoman Empire. Who knows what might have happened to the city if the city hadn't been conquered, but the truth is, it was, and it's still one of the greatest cities on the face of the Earth, even after 1.7 millennia.

I hope this doesn't cause any outrage, it's just my opinion.

You are correct. The Ottomans took the decaying old city, sacked by Crusaders and grown delapitated under the Palaeologids, and gave it a new shine, a new life, a new population. Istanbul as it is now is a beautiful, thriving, cosmopolitan city, a testimony to the vibrancy that the Ottoman conquest gave the city.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Wizard

You are correct. The Ottomans took the decaying old city, sacked by Crusaders and grown delapitated under the Palaeologids, and gave it a new shine, a new life, a new population. Istanbul as it is now is a beautiful, thriving, cosmopolitan city, a testimony to the vibrancy that the Ottoman conquest gave the city.

---

For a second there I thought I might get swamped by enraged Byzantine revivalists (if there is such a thing). At least I'm not alone in my views.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spmetla

I believe the Empire of Trebizond remained independent from the Ottoman Turks for a few years after the fall of Constantinople and claimed the title of the 'Roman Empire'.

---

Also, the name "Rum" (as in the MTW province) indicated "Rome", didn't it? The Rum Sultanate must have fancied itself the empire's true successor, like so many other little states.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Wizard

You are correct. The Ottomans took the decaying old city, sacked by Crusaders and grown delapitated under the Palaeologids, and gave it a new shine, a new life, a new population. Istanbul as it is now is a beautiful, thriving, cosmopolitan city, a testimony to the vibrancy that the Ottoman conquest gave the city.

---

Yeah, but many parts of the city look like ****. :shame:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Yeah, but many parts of the city look like ****. :shame:

---

You'll find nasty places in all the large cities you ever visit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Yeah, but many parts of the city look like ****. :shame:

---

Those are parts that Constantinople could only ever dream of expanding into (okay, so they didn't because of strategical considerations, but that doesn't matter right now).

Mostly I think Istanbul is much more a city than many in Europe. It ranks amongst my favorite in the world, and I've visited many of the greats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spmetla

I'm pretty sure the civilians were used like in most sieges to bring water food and supplies to the defenders and help to repair the holes in the wall created by Urbans cannon.

It is a good mark for the end of the medieval period. The last ties to the classical world were severed with the end of the 'Roman Empire'. I believe the Empire of Trebizond remained independent from the Ottoman Turks for a few years after the fall of Constantinople and claimed the title of the 'Roman Empire'.

Well if it hadn't fallen the Italians would have kept up their black sea trade and probably not have felt the need to go west, Europe's discovery of the Americas might have been delayed a few years if Constantinople hadn't fallen.

---

The Italians didn't go west, and the exploration of the Americas was because Europe wanted to find an alternative route to China and India, so as to break the Italian monopoly on silk and spices.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Perplexed

Also, the name "Rum" (as in the MTW province) indicated "Rome", didn't it? The Rum Sultanate must have fancied itself the empire's true successor, like so many other little states.

---

Rum I believe did come from Rome, but that was because it referred to the conquest of the formerly "Roman" territories in Asia, besides it was named thus before the sack in 1204, thus it could not be considered a succesor state.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by King Henry V

Rum I believe did come from Rome, but that was because it referred to the conquest of the formerly "Roman" territories in Asia, besides it was named thus before the sack in 1204, thus it could not be considered a succesor state.

---

Yeah, I was reading up on it and you would seem to be right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by King Henry V

The Italians didn't go west, and the exploration of the Americas was because Europe wanted to find an alternative route to China and India, so as to break the Italian monopoly on silk and spices.

---

Indeed, it was allegedly a great disappointment for Europe to find a continent blocking the path to Cathay.