Is the rhythme method responsible for millions of dead babies?

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Originally Posted by Me

I don't see that this article addresses the Catholic position on contraception. It appears to be a more general argument against a possible anti-abortion stance. The position doesn't engage the central point of the Catholic stance. If the piece was looking to effectively challenge Catholic teaching on the issue, it has not done so.

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

It's not targeted at the catholic church, it's merely a contemplation on the rhythme method as contraceptive.

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If the article doesn't address the Catholic Church's stance then why the question: "What do you think, should the (C)hurch advise the use of condoms instead?"

Because the Catholic church is the most relevant one. It's a monolith religious organisation that recommends the rythm method as the only acceptable contraception. Some protestant churches might be doing the same, but they're smaller and their word has much less leverage.

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I don't see the joke. Are you suggesting that these assumptions - which are clearly stated as assumptions, hence the question mark in the title - are unlikely?

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For the first assumption, there is very littles scientific evidence to back up the figure of "more than half". It is, however, safe to say that sometimes fertilisation does not lead to implantation. The second assumption is udoubtably true, even for the sympto-thermal method, a method of which the author seems unaware. The third assumption is crucial to the argument but is not based on any scientific evidence at all. Conceptions that occur following intercourse before the identified safe period will be due to the survival of sperm and earlier than predicted ovulation. Since the sperm only contributes genetic material, it is difficult to see how the sperm being "old" as the article describes it could affect implantation unless you are arguing that the genetic material itself is degraded. However cells maintain undegraded genetic material for periods much longer than a few days. Conceptions resulting from intercourse later than expected will be due to unusually late ovulation. There is an argument that the lining of the womb is less than optimum at this stage, but there is little to back this up since the shedding of the lining of the womb does not start until well after any chance of implantation. This does not stop the author from pulling a figure of twice as many embryonic deaths for late and early conceptions from absolutely nowhere. The argument is only as good as the assumptions on which it is based, and the third assumption is shaky to say the least.

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Wouldn't the same concerns apply to that method?

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To the extent that it applies at all, yes. I only mentioned it to make sure that everyone knows that the rhythm method is not the one advocated by the Catholic Church.

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Because the Catholic church is the most relevant one. It's a monolith religious organisation that recommends the rythm method as the only acceptable contraception. Some protestant churches might be doing the same, but they're smaller and their word has much less leverage.

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It didn't work!:wall:

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Originally Posted by Pindar

If the article doesn't address the Catholic Church's stance then why the question: "What do you think, should the (C)hurch advise the use of condoms instead?"

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Well, had I said "What do you think, should the Buddhists advise the use of condoms instead?" instead, it would have been a crude way to start a discussion, don't you think?

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Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester

For the first assumption, there is very littles scientific evidence to back up the figure of "more than half". It is, however, safe to say that sometimes fertilisation does not lead to implantation. The second assumption is udoubtably true, even for the sympto-thermal method, a method of which the author seems unaware. The third assumption is crucial to the argument but is not based on any scientific evidence at all. Conceptions that occur following intercourse before the identified safe period will be due to the survival of sperm and earlier than predicted ovulation. Since the sperm only contributes genetic material, it is difficult to see how the sperm being "old" as the article describes it could affect implantation unless you are arguing that the genetic material itself is degraded. However cells maintain undegraded genetic material for periods much longer than a few days. Conceptions resulting from intercourse later than expected will be due to unusually late ovulation. There is an argument that the lining of the womb is less than optimum at this stage, but there is little to back this up since the shedding of the lining of the womb does not start until well after any chance of implantation. This does not stop the author from pulling a figure of twice as many embryonic deaths for late and early conceptions from absolutely nowhere. The argument is only as good as the assumptions on which it is based, and the third assumption is shaky to say the least.

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Well, DNA is very susceptible to damage from environmental influences and since sperms lack any sort repair system other cells have, they aren't made for long-term use. That's why the male organism creates and discards millions of them every day. Since the sperms in question would be out in the open, I don't find concerns about their quality so out of the question and the estimation of twice a chance of misconception to be plausible. But I have to ask a few biologists.

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

Well, had I said "What do you think, should the Buddhists advise the use of condoms instead?" instead, it would have been a crude way to start a discussion, don't you think?

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I don't follow. The paper isn't focused on the stance of the Catholic Church, but the post notes the paper and then asks about the stance of the Catholic Church: is there a connection? If not, then why the use of the one to inform the other? It doens't seem any more relevant than if you had choosen a Buddhist sect's sexual protocals.

I don't know what would be crude in asking a simple question on condom use or anti-abortion positions. Crudity is usually found in the form not the substance of expression.

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Originally Posted by Pindar

I don't follow.

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You don't need to. Just stay where you are. ~;)

Isn't the rythm method Onanism, and hence strictly speaking against the will of God?

~:smoking: