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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good
x-dANGER, what you said is this:
That's pretty close to saying the Israeli civilians deserve to die when a Palestinian terrorist blows up a bomb in a bus or cafe.
And if Palestinians protested their mistreatment peacefully, non-violently, like Gandhi, they'd win in about two months. But everytime they kill someone the Israelis do. It's a circle of violence that won't end until one side stops. I personally think the Palestinians should first.
Finally, x-dANGER, I am curious. What would you have Israel do? What would satisfy you in this mess?
lars - thanks for the wiki. I was searching for "Balfor" without the "u." :sweatdrop:
But I had already agreed that it is un-accepted above that.
I really can't think of anything good.. The one lonely way to make things fair again, is to give Palestine to Palestinians again, that is fair to Palestine. But then, Israelis.. I can only think that it is sad for those little children to go out of their (AS they know) home.. I lived that experience, and nothing can be worse than that for sure. But, is the grief of a million more expensive than the joy of millions? For me, no. It is expensive for Israelis new generation (The old one.. Nah, they have taken it by force and had homes when they did all what has been done), but then, it brings joy into my soul, and every other muslim's, and is more likely to merge the 2 halves of the world into 1 united one, relieving all the conflicts in the current world, and uniting the focus of all nations to help those in Africa.
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
Where would they go?! :inquisitive:
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
Back to where they came from? Europe? Their homes?
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
You realize that there are some 5th and 6th jewish families in Israel right? They bought land from Arab Palestinians in the 19th century. You gonna kick them out too? No I think that the original partition plan made the most sense, just with continuous territory for both Jewish and Arab states.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:U...stine_1947.png
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
They bought it from? If from Palestinians, keep them in, from UK, UK should take care of them.
@That partition gives more land to Jews than original people, which won't resolve anything, but lead to a civil war in a few months.. Sooner or later. It will be like Iraq, but on worse standards.
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by x-dANGEr
Back to where they came from? Europe? Their homes?
Here's an idea. Let's send the Jews and Arabs back where they came from, and give the land back to the Canaanites (Phoenicians). Build a new capital for the returning Phoenicians, and call it New City, or Kart Hadasht in the Canaanite language. Surely you have no quibble with the Right of Return.
Before you ask, I'm not a fan of Likudnik policy, but I'm even less of a fan of the arguments you are proposing. There are Israelis who were born there and have lived there all their lives, and who know no home other than Israel. The Israeli repression of Palestine is fundamentally racist, but your proposal of sending them "back where they came from" is even more so. Would you and other Palestinian Arabs (for so I presume from your posts) consider removing to the sands of Arabia where your ancestors came from?
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
Give palestine back to the Palestinians? No Palestinian state ever owned it.
The Israelis bought the land, and are, even now, withdrawing from some of the west bank in an effort to get peace.
The faction preventing peace is the Palestinian people, who want to see Israel destroyed. If they stopped trying to murder as many civilians as they could, there would be peace. Israel is not trying to destroy the Palestinians for revenge or religion.
Crazed Rabbit
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by Pannonian
Here's an idea. Let's send the Jews and Arabs back where they came from, and give the land back to the Canaanites (Phoenicians). Build a new capital for the returning Phoenicians, and call it New City, or Kart Hadasht in the Canaanite language. Surely you have no quibble with the Right of Return.
Before you ask, I'm not a fan of Likudnik policy, but I'm even less of a fan of the arguments you are proposing. There are Israelis who were born there and have lived there all their lives, and who know no home other than Israel. The Israeli repression of Palestine is fundamentally racist, but your proposal of sending them "back where they came from" is even more so. Would you and other Palestinian Arabs (for so I presume from your posts) consider removing to the sands of Arabia where your ancestors came from?
But as I said, it is a small price for how many conflicts that would solve.
@Crazed Rabbit: Whom did they buy it from..
I can't buy the white house from you, can I?
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
I don't know how many conflicts it would end - we had plenty of excuses to kill each other before the nation of Israel. :juggle2:
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by x-dANGEr
But as I said, it is a small price for how many conflicts that would solve.
If you think sending the Jews back where they came from is a good idea, first bodily move all the Arabs in the region back to Arabia, then we'll move the Jews back to wherever their nomadic ancestors first lived. Give the land we call Israel or Palestine back to the Canaanites who originally lived there before Joshua arrived on the scene around 1200 BC. If you take the right of habitation back more than one generation, then at its furthest point neither Jews nor Arabs belong there. And the Dome of the Rock should be turned into a Temple to Baal, or something similarly indigenous to the Jebusites. Would this be OK with you?
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
As long as Israel has their military stranglehold on the land, than the land is theirs. If the Arabs were able to conquer Israel (or Palestine) again, then it would belong to them.
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by lars573
Israeli (which is how you say it not Israelian) nukes came from either the US through France or just from France with US permission. And Israel is the lesser of 2 evils because there official policy is to try and avoid civilian deaths when possible. There is a difference between a Hamas agent blowing up a home made bomb on a bus full of commuters and an Israeli shell going off target.
The FAS site has all the information you could possibily need on just this. But in short its France with America turning the blind eye. No permission given by the US, but no sanctions demanded by the United States either.
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by x-dANGEr
They bought it from? If from Palestinians, keep them in, from UK, UK should take care of them.
Just brilliant - why don't the two people living on the land in Israel and Palenstine just learn to get along.
That would actually be the best solution to the issue.
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by Redleg
...why don't the two people living on the land in Israel and Palenstine just learn to get along.
Redleg's solution is ideal, although perhaps too idealistic. Still, I'm an optimist...
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by Redleg
Just brilliant - why don't the two people living on the land in Israel and Palenstine just learn to get along.
That would actually be the best solution to the issue.
The only way that would work is if only Muslims could be elected president. All muslims beleive the have an inalienable right to be ruled by a muslim. It's the reason Pakistan was unwilling to be part of India.
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
Israel was and still is in breach of UN resolutions, they are the best example of a country that should be invaded and have the goverenment removed but won't for political reasons.
They should go back behind the Green Line, the 1948 borders.
This was all done to get Hamas to retaliate, and sadly it has worked, there goes the moral high ground boys.
Still no one listens when the US is in the bully's corner.
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by lars573
All muslims beleive the have an inalienable right to be ruled by a muslim. It's the reason Pakistan was unwilling to be part of India.
Hmm.. an absolute statement (a generalization), followed by one anecdote (a questionable one as well)...
Not very convincing... :no:
By the way, there are Muslims in America (they may be in Canada too :shocked:), under a Christian president...
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
And in Britain who believe that they should be running things (in Britain). It's in the Qur'an that Muslims have the right to be ruled by fellow Muslims.
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
The faction preventing peace is the Palestinian people, who want to see Israel destroyed. If they stopped trying to murder as many civilians as they could, there would be peace. Israel is not trying to destroy the Palestinians for revenge or religion.
It's rare that I find myself in agreement with Rabbit, but this is the kernel of the problem. The majority of the Arab states around Israel have threatened its existence more than once, and the political representatives of the Palestinians have done the same - and continue to do so.
Israel has a perfect right to exist. It exists, and has powerful allies. It's not going to go away way. Deal with that first and foremost.
As a democratic country, Israel should be held to a much higher account than it currently is by the international community. They should not be quite so paranoid, because the most powerful country on the earth guarantees their existence. They can afford to be more generous and merciful - and they can afford to end the occupation in line with UN resolutions.
However, until the Arab states and Hamas unconditionally accept the right of existence and guarantee the security of the state, the Israelis will not be able to relax and form a two-state solution of any kind.
The ball has always been in the Palestinian court. If they downed arms and protested the brutalities of the occupation through peaceful, non-violent means, they would have their state within a few years, perhaps months. US public opinion would change overnight if they saw tanks shelling civilians - if there had been no suicide bombings of any sort prior.
Palestine could be won with a flower, but never a bomb.
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
Slight problem there Banquo , if Israel accepts the UN resolutions and complies with them , then it effectively ceases to exist .
You write about the PA accepting unconditionally , yet surely the resolutions must be a condition .
Right of return and the rights of IDPs must be settled , but there is no solution , Israel has always , despite the very favourable/extremely unfavourble citizenship rights , had a problem with population . It goes all the way back to the alleyah and continues today with the wave of eastern european migration . It is one thing to get people of the Jewish faith to come to their new homeland to become citizens , it is another thing entirely trying to get them to stay once they have citizenship .
One symptom of this is the very pressing problem with the depopulation of areas of Jerusalem which traditionally have had a long standing Jewish majority .
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
And where goes my rights? And the rights of fellow 3 millions in Jordan alone? What is my fault that my home was stolen and snatched from me? What wrong have I done that I haven't seen my home more than 4 months through my whole life? Try to see the window from both sides, and don't be so biased. (I may be biased myself, but it just can't turn into my head to have an explanation for all this)
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by Tribesman
Slight problem there Banquo , if Israel accepts the UN resolutions and complies with them , then it effectively ceases to exist .
You write about the PA accepting unconditionally , yet surely the resolutions must be a condition .
Hmm, that's interesting. I had better go and read the UN resolutions again. Thanks for the heads-up. :smile:
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by x-dANGEr
And where goes my rights? And the rights of fellow 3 millions in Jordan alone? What is my fault that my home was stolen and snatched from me? What wrong have I done that I haven't seen my home more than 4 months through my whole life? Try to see the window from both sides, and don't be so biased. (I may be biased myself, but it just can't turn into my head to have an explanation for all this)
If you haven't seen a place more than 4 months through your entire life, it hardly counts as your home. In any case, do you want to speak up for the poor Canaanites who had their home usurped by those nasty Jews and Arabs?
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
Then I have no home? Taken that all my family is back their, and wherever I go I will be treated in a 'less-that-citizen' matter?
Talking about Canaanites is really irrelevant to the whole subject, don't you think?
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by x-dANGEr
Then I have no home? Taken that all my family is back their, and wherever I go I will be treated in a 'less-that-citizen' matter?
Where do you live at the moment? I was born elsewhere, and spent the first few years of my life there (rather more time than you spent in Palestine), but I regard Britain as my home as the majority of my life was spent here, and I grew up here. When I go back to my birthplace, where the majority of my extended family is, I am treated as a foreigner, but then my life and theirs have little in common, so I probably am a foreigner.
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Talking about Canaanites is really irrelevant to the whole subject, don't you think?
If you want habitation rights to go back beyond a generation, how far back do you go? The Zionists who claimed Israel for themselves had very little moral basis beyond history, but their descendants are there now, and they have more right to the land of Israel/Palestine than you personally do, having lived there all their lives. Sort out some kind of compromise or compensation with the older generation, but your suggestion that your voice has more weight than those of Israelis born and bred there is nonsense, and your suggestion to deport them is racist nonsense.
I'm rather liking my suggestion actually. Deport the Jews and Arabs back to where they came from, and turn Israel into a haven for Canaanites, with New City ("Carthage") as their capital. No more war or strife then, since AFAIK no-one identifies themselves as Phoenicians any more, and hence the resultant country will be empty of people. Perhaps some enterprising modder can base a mod on the New Canaan - Sheep: Total War.
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by lars573
And in Britain who believe that they should be running things (in Britain).
I'm afraid this statement has the same flaws as the previous one. Also, most political groups in Britan believe they should be running things; it wouldn't surprise me that Muslim political groups would do the same...
Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
It's in the Qur'an that Muslims have the right to be ruled by fellow Muslims.
Would you first show me this statement in the Quran?
Second, it's also in the Jewish Law that Jews are in exile until God takes them out of it. Therefore, a Jewish state cannot exist. This is the position that ultra-Orthodox Jews take in their opposition to Israel (aside from it being secular). Yet other Jews choose to live in Israel anyway. :shocked:
Also, it is in the Quran (several verses about "not trangessing limits" in war), and further elaborated by Islamic jurists (http://www.mereislam.info/articles/D...A-Al-Akiti.pdf) that civilians are not supposed to be killed in warfare, yet Muslim terrorists do so anyway... :shocked:
Flawed reasoning once again...
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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
Israel has a perfect right to exist...
Yes, because it has secured itself with military prowess. That's the only reason any country has the 'right to exist' though...
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Originally Posted by Pannonian
If you haven't seen a place more than 4 months through your entire life, it hardly counts as your home.
How are you to be the judge of this? It was also the home of his parents presumably; would it still 'hardly count' as their home then because they lived their for years and not months?
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Originally Posted by Pannonian
In any case, do you want to speak up for the poor Canaanites who had their home usurped by those nasty Jews and Arabs?
First, your account of the history of the area is very oversimplified, and it's structure can easily be misleading.
We will just start with the Canaanites as the first people in the area. For simplicity, we will ignore the opinion of a few scholars and go with the account of the Israelites conquering Canaan. Then we will have the Neo-Babylonian conquest. Then the Persian conquest. Then the Macedonian conquest. Then the Roman conquest. Then the Arab conquest. Then the brief Crusader conquest followed by an Arab retaking which later gave way to the Ottomans. Then the British taking and Mandate...
Also, you are in a completely different position than him. I would be certain that, had your land been taken from you, you wouldn't really be worried about ancient history as much as the current problems. Did the Jewish settlers speak up for the Palestinians when their land was forcibly taken from them? No, and I wouldn't expect them to, and that in no way takes any sympathy for them from me. Likewise, I also feel sympathy for x-dANGEr and his predicament...
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
Just one note: Israel hadn't secured itself military-wise, it was secured through the whole west world, which justifies any hate from muslims to the west; if any. If it is all about military, I don't think Israel can't stand against all the Islamic countries, now can it? The perfect solution is to merge the 2 countries, and all live happily. Though, as said it won't be acceptable by muslims to be rules by a non-muslim, if Jews agree to be ruled by a muslim, then it would be the ideal solution. Though, that is if the old generations don't plant hate in the new offspring, but rather corporation, happiness and understanding the differences as factors of completion, rather than contrary. But, it simply won't happen, better said, can't happen.
What I suggested was a bit extreme maybe, but just as extreme as the birth of the whole country Israel, and extreme problems are only handled by extreme solutions. Tell you what, forget about those who die each day in Palestine. What about all those 'lost'? The army patrol stops, go into the home next door, takes Khalid, Mohammed and Ibraheem, and sets off for a one way journey.. What about that?
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by x-dANGEr
Just one note: Israel hadn't secured itself military-wise, it was secured through the whole west world, which justifies any hate from muslims to the west; if any. If it is all about military, I don't think Israel can't stand against all the Islamic countries, now can it?
Well, Israel has defended itself from massed attack by its neighbours before. And the muslim world does not speak with one voice on the matter - both Egypt and Jordan have recognised Israel's right to exist. Turkey and Indonesia too, IIRC.
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Originally Posted by x-dANGEr
The perfect solution is to merge the 2 countries, and all live happily. Though, as said it won't be acceptable by muslims to be rules by a non-muslim, if Jews agree to be ruled by a muslim, then it would be the ideal solution.
There are plenty of Israeli arabs who are muslim and quite happy to be citizens of that country. European muslims appear to be quite happy to be ruled by non-muslim governments. So I don't see your argument.
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Originally Posted by x-dANGEr
What I suggested was a bit extreme maybe, but just as extreme as the birth of the whole country Israel, and extreme problems are only handled by extreme solutions.
No, you're wrong. The Palestinian people should not resort to extreme measures - they are heavily outgunned, and can never win militarily. You need to get over it, and protest non-violently. Extreme solutions just cause more deaths.
Quote:
Originally Posted by x-dANGEr
Tell you what, forget about those who die each day in Palestine. What about all those 'lost'? The army patrol stops, go into the home next door, takes Khalid, Mohammed and Ibraheem, and sets off for a one way journey.. What about that?
You may be surprised, but I am a strong supporter of the justice of the Palestinian cause. I am deeply saddened that Israel, a country that should know more than any about how a dispossessed people feels, resorts to extra-judicial murder, kidnapping and other human rights violations. Nonetheless, they would be put into a far more difficult moral position if Palestinian terrorists stopped attacking their civilians.
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
Are you forgetting the 7 day war? Israel did defeat most of the Arab countries.
And those countries need to remember that if they want any new stuff from the USA or their pet the UK they can't attack israel. Of course Chinese tech is improving, so that threat might decrease.
~:smoking:
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Re: Hamas ends the Charade
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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
I'm afraid this statement has the same flaws as the previous one. Also, most political groups in Britan believe they should be running things; it wouldn't surprise me that Muslim political groups would do the same...
It was your statement that muslim groups in non-Muslim countries don't think they should be running things.
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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
Would you first show me this statement in the Quran?
If I had one I would. The passage was shown to put muslim political agitation in a certain light.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
Also, it is in the Quran (several verses about "not trangessing limits" in war), and further elaborated by Islamic jurists (
http://www.mereislam.info/articles/D...A-Al-Akiti.pdf) that civilians are not supposed to be killed in warfare, yet Muslim terrorists do so anyway... :shocked:
Flawed reasoning once again...
And it says in the bible that Christians aren't supposed to eat anyhting but fish on Fridays. Picking and choosing what you follow and how is part and parcel of religion.
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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
Yes, because it has secured itself with military prowess. That's the only reason any country has the 'right to exist' though...
Might makes right. All nations have gone through that sort of foundation phase. The US, Canada, the Uk every nation.
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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
How are you to be the judge of this? It was also the home of his parents presumably; would it still 'hardly count' as their home then because they lived their for years and not months?
Or his home could be where his Grand-parents were forced to flee from in 1948. Something like 4 million Arab Palestinians fled to Gaza and the west bank when the Arab nations attacked Israel during it's independance war.
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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
First, your account of the history of the area is very oversimplified, and it's structure can easily be misleading.
We will just start with the Canaanites as the first people in the area. For simplicity, we will ignore the opinion of a few scholars and go with the account of the Israelites conquering Canaan. Then we will have the Neo-Babylonian conquest. Then the Persian conquest. Then the Macedonian conquest. Then the Roman conquest. Then the Arab conquest. Then the brief Crusader conquest followed by an Arab retaking which later gave way to the Ottomans. Then the British taking and Mandate...
Also, you are in a completely different position than him. I would be certain that, had your land been taken from you, you wouldn't really be worried about ancient history as much as the current problems. Did the Jewish settlers speak up for the Palestinians when their land was forcibly taken from them? No, and I wouldn't expect them to, and that in no way takes any sympathy for them from me. Likewise, I also feel sympathy for x-dANGEr and his predicament...
Actually in all probability the Muslim Palestinians are the Canaanites. In the same fashion that the Egyptians were culturally assimilated into the larger Arab whole so were the inhabitants of Palestine. Just as they had with Roman culture after they conquered the area.
