Re: U.S. Embassy Report on Iraq -- Not So Upbeat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joker85
I would be interested in your serious answer to his question then since your first was a joke. You said the President should ask Americans to make sacrifice aside from joining the military, he asked you what sort of sacrifice(s). I am interested in hearing your answers.
Joker, I gave a serious answer after Xiahou took the War Bonds seriously:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Tax cuts in the middle of wartime are insane. Funding a war entirely on debt when it is not strictly necessary to do so is insane. I believe this fiscal nonsense was propogated for purely political reasons, i.e., we don't want to upset the voters by asking them to actually pay for the war. Let's just shove that off on future generations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
No, the mistake was mine for expecting a serious answer from you.
Sometimes lemurs are serious, and just as often they're silly; both states can be enjoyable. Didn't mean to make you grumpy.
Joker, Xiahou, is there anything else in this topic you'd care to comment on? Or is this entire thread going to be about "what exactly do we mean by ask for sacrifice"? Do you have any thoughts on the embassy report? On conditions for Iraqi workers who commute to the Green Zone? Do you believe the President's pitch is correct or flawed?
Re: U.S. Embassy Report on Iraq -- Not So Upbeat
So why ration gasoline? Why not just have everyone line up for lashings every Sunday- Im sure that'd remind them.
Oh dear , more mindless crap , or could you tell me how the war has affected prices at the local S&M club ?
Then again perhaps the few rogue elements from the nightshift have pushed up demand on their return , you know you must follow market values , supply and demand , pehaps you could import some Iraqis who developed a love for being abused :idea2: , that might stabilise the market .
Re: U.S. Embassy Report on Iraq -- Not So Upbeat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Joker, Xiahou, is there anything else in this topic you'd care to comment on? Or is this entire thread going to be about "what exactly do we mean by ask for sacrifice"? Do you have any thoughts on the embassy report? On conditions for Iraqi workers who commute to the Green Zone? Do you believe the President's pitch is correct or flawed?
The lack of a call for sacrifice from the president was listed as one of your biggest complaints about the administration not being honest and putting forth "delusional" "sugar-plum fantasies". I just wanted to know if you had anything specific or realistic in mind or were just repeating the all-too-common talking points.
As to your original post, of course things are difficult in Iraq. What are these delusional fantasies that you think you keep hearing?
Re: U.S. Embassy Report on Iraq -- Not So Upbeat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
What are these delusional fantasies that you think you keep hearing?
Good lord, so I'm supposed to list a bunch of quotes, starting with Cheney's "last throes" and leading up to the mantra of "progress" coming from the White House, and then you're going to deconstruct each example and explain how they're not unrealistic and I'm biased, or perhaps too dim to understand their cryptic import?
Pardon me if I don't play. If you don't see a disconnect between the Admin.'s rhetoric over the last three years and observable reality, I don't have the energy to get into a lengthy back-and-forth about it. Too little common ground, and you sound as though you're in a mood to contest everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
As to your original post, of course things are difficult in Iraq.
LOL! And here I thought you were going to adopt a dour tone. Very funny, very dry.
Re: U.S. Embassy Report on Iraq -- Not So Upbeat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
1. Ill have to remember that one next time global warming comes up.:wink: Seriously though, I can't believe you dont see that tax cuts can spur economic growth.
Here's a story from IBD that outlines the difference in US tax policies vs other countries- pay particular attention to the pretty chart.
2. This one is easy- as Ive said, the government is now taking in more revenue than it did pre-cuts. If the revenue growth didnt offset the losses from the tax cuts, revenue wouldnt have grown would it?- it wouldve shrunk. :dizzy2:
Neither arguments prove what you want them to prove, because you've taken as your baseline the year 2000. That's like trying to argue the Nazis helped the American economy in the 1930s because they got into power then, and the American economy gradually improved. If your baseline is the great depression, ANYTHING is going to look like an increase. How about if we extend the analysis to 1992? What do things look like then?
I'm not arguing tax cuts are bad, or that they can't help the economy. But they are not the panacea for all economic problems some conservatives think they are. Hence, misleading studies that take the year 2000--the bottoming out of the economy and the bursting of the tech bubble--as the beginning of their analyses. Moreover, the US went from record budget surpluses to record deficits in less than 4 years. Are you saying this is all due to increased spending? That trillions of dollars of tax cuts benefitting mostly the top 1% of the population, had nothing to do with it?
Re: U.S. Embassy Report on Iraq -- Not So Upbeat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Here's a story from IBD that outlines the difference in US tax policies vs other countries-
pay particular attention to the pretty chart.
(emphasis added)
May I point at my sig for another "pretty chart" ? I consider it a good reductio ad absurdum of how you can use pretty charts to prove connections between virtually anything...
Yar.
Re: U.S. Embassy Report on Iraq -- Not So Upbeat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
Neither arguments prove what you want them to prove, because you've taken as your baseline the year 2000. That's like trying to argue the Nazis helped the American economy in the 1930s because they got into power then, and the American economy gradually improved. If your baseline is the great depression, ANYTHING is going to look like an increase. How about if we extend the analysis to 1992? What do things look like then?
Both the real and nominal GDPs are substantially higher then 1992....what are you trying to get at? The point of the article was basically this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by article
Moreover, the gap between European rates and U.S. rates is widening. This in large part explains the disparity in economic performance (see chart).
The US economy's growth, with much lower taxes, is outstripping that of the EU- which has a much higher tax rate.
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I'm not arguing tax cuts are bad, or that they can't help the economy.
No, you're just arguing that they were bad in this case and that they didnt help the economy- despite strong economic growth that has occurred since then. :dizzy2:
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But they are not the panacea for all economic problems some conservatives think they are.
I don't think they are either, although I am generally in favor of being able to keep more of my own money. :wink: But, there is some point where a cut in tax rates will not stimulate the economy enough to generate revenues greater than what is lost. However, this was not that point.
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Hence, misleading studies that take the year 2000--the bottoming out of the economy and the bursting of the tech bubble--as the beginning of their analyses.
Let me refer to the article once more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by article
Perhaps the most famous, by Harvard economist Martin Feldstein, found that high rates of taxation cost countries more than $1 in output for each dollar of added taxes imposed. Likewise, World Bank studies of dozens of economies going all the way back to 1983 find pretty much the same thing.
Before we get bogged down in minutia let's keep in mind the original claim I was responding to that "cutting taxes in wartime is insanity". Since these tax cuts, we've experienced strong economic growth and sharp increases in federal revenue... how is that insane?
Re: U.S. Embassy Report on Iraq -- Not So Upbeat
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you also have a really mind-boggling foreign debt...?
Nevermind now that this affluence you speak of appears AFAIK to be rather unevenly distributed.
Re: U.S. Embassy Report on Iraq -- Not So Upbeat
Also, the massive budget surpluses have turned to massive budget deficits while the tax cuts were being enacted and taking effect. How exactly do you explain that? We're not talking a few hundred billions here--the cost of the war on terror--we're talking about a few hundred billions EVERY YEAR-- that is how much the US is now going into debt, from a period of surpluses.
Re: U.S. Embassy Report on Iraq -- Not So Upbeat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
Also, the massive budget surpluses have turned to massive budget deficits while the tax cuts were being enacted and taking effect. How exactly do you explain that? We're not talking a few hundred billions here--the cost of the war on terror--we're talking about a few hundred billions EVERY YEAR-- that is how much the US is now going into debt, from a period of surpluses.
I believe you'd find revenues were falling even before the tax cuts due to a weakening economy. Also, and this should be obvious, a tax cut will not generate an immediate revenue increase- there is a lag before the economic expansion generates revenue to offset the cuts.
The real problem is runaway discretionary spending (pork) and new entitlements. Over the last few decades federal revenue has roughly tripled- however, spending has qudarupled during the same time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you also have a really mind-boggling foreign debt...?.
We have alot of debt to be sure, but let's keep some perspective while we're piling on US financial policy. Our total debt as a percentage of GDP is not so different than that of some of our European counterparts.
Re: U.S. Embassy Report on Iraq -- Not So Upbeat
As this thread now seems to be a focus on the US debt and tax cuts, I'm curious if anyone got a good link on how much influence the money that gets injected into the system by going debt has.
I mean unless I'm missing something, this years debt will be about 20% of the total GNP. :dizzy2:
It has to affect the total GNP in some way.
Re: U.S. Embassy Report on Iraq -- Not So Upbeat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
We have alot of debt to be sure, but let's keep some perspective while we're piling on US financial policy. Our total debt as a percentage of GDP is not so different than that of some of our European counterparts.
I'm guessing the emphasis is on "some". Which would presumably be the ones in direr financial straits.
And wasn't the American system, at least according to what I've taken your position to be, supposed to do better than that...? :inquisitive:
Re: U.S. Embassy Report on Iraq -- Not So Upbeat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside
As this thread now seems to be a focus on the US debt and tax cuts, I'm curious if anyone got a good link on how much influence the money that gets injected into the system by going debt has.
I mean unless I'm missing something, this years debt will be about 20% of the total GNP. :dizzy2:
It has to affect the total GNP in some way.
Some information is available at this site
http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/
This one from the above mentioned site - might provide the information you asked about
http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opd.htm
Re: U.S. Embassy Report on Iraq -- Not So Upbeat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Thanks for the links. Although it didn't contain what I was looking for, the only thing I found yet was on wiki about GDP (appearently GNP is an old name) mentioning, among the critizisms against GDP, that GDP is getting higher when going into debt and lower if the state is investing thier budget surplus outside the country.
It did contain this pearl though: :2thumbsup:
4.2) How do you make a contribution to reduce the debt?
Please follow these important steps to make a contribution to reduce the debt.
1. Make check payable to the Bureau of the Public Debt.
2. In the memo section of the check, notate Gift to reduce Debt Held by the Public.
3. Mail check to -
ATTN DEPT G
BUREAU OF THE PUBLIC DEBT
P O BOX 2188
PARKERSBURG, WV 26106-2188
Seems that they'll get about 1,5 millions this fiscal year in this way. ~;p
Re: U.S. Embassy Report on Iraq -- Not So Upbeat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside
It did contain this pearl though: :2thumbsup:
4.2) How do you make a contribution to reduce the debt?
Please follow these important steps to make a contribution to reduce the debt.
1. Make check payable to the Bureau of the Public Debt.
2. In the memo section of the check, notate Gift to reduce Debt Held by the Public.
3. Mail check to -
ATTN DEPT G
BUREAU OF THE PUBLIC DEBT
P O BOX 2188
PARKERSBURG, WV 26106-2188
Seems that they'll get about 1,5 millions this fiscal year in this way. ~;p
Wow, that's idiotic. :laugh4:
