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Never seen those, they need so much of a buildup that the AI never reaches them and even I can´t build up that much before my game ends. Surely they´re not quite that good?
The same goes for a couple of other Late era units as well, even pikemen - the basic variety, mind you - need a fortress to be buildable. I think those Late era units might be something I´ll try myself on MTW modding, as a rule they´re not quite that good to require such limitations.
They're high class units but still overrated. I use them as anti cav flankers, I prefer Janissary Infantry as my all round infantry in the later High and Late eras.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
Pikemen are really not worth the effort IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
Not another camel preacher :no: :sweatdrop:Quote:
Originally Posted by CheziScrotus XVI
Yes they're great vs cav, but CS does very well vs them outside the desert.
While almost every troop is good vs MS, MS isn't really bad vs any troop and very cheap. Practical counters vs halbs and CFK:s thanks to that price.
They're even oddly enough better vs high valored golden armoured heavy cav than CS :inquisitive: .
Camels should decimate MS in the charge, simply because camels are a cavalry and MS are basically an AP sword infantry, with no vs cavalry attack/defense bonuses. Though at a higher valour the MS should win.
p.s. my camel comment was tongue in cheek. ~;)
Although that could happen, the most likely scenario is that the MS will simply chop up the camels with a kill/loss ratio slightly higher than 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravel
With a poor charge, the MS even stand a good chance on winning vs 1 higher valour camels.
Tested on flat ground with arid terrain ~;)
To support that:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside
Bedouin camel warriors: attack 2, defence 0 (IIRC, charge is 5), 40 men per unit
MS: attack 2+AP, defence 3 (IIRC, charge is 2 or 3), 60 men per unit
There's no way camels can win in frontal combat.
If your speaking of 1 on 1 flat terrain melee scenario, then the MS would indeed win.
Camels? Where's Mithrandir?
Which effort, the modding or the buildup?Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravel
I´m currently trying my hand at Pike warfare in my Spanish game, and I think - while they need too much of a buildup to be justified - they still do a very good job, if you use them properly, which takes a little time to get used to. They´re no spears, so they´re not supposed to act like them, nor are they polearms. They´re their own class, and a formation of six pike blocks moving forward in a single line is both an impressive sight as well as a hell of an equalizer. They just push everything out of their path.
Yep, Pikes are great, however with the exception of a single case I didn't bother modding them in or building up but tried Pike&Musket:TW instead where you basically start out with loads and loads of (heavily oversized) pikemen units which gradually become outdated....but in the beginning they're deadly, not quite so of course if everyone employs them.
However in vanilla and most other mods, they suffer from being severely undermanned IMHO. 4 ranks give a bonus and only 100 men in the unit: that asks for being wrapped - by units such as spearmen (ridiculous. I even lost my first proper pike battle due to this.) add to that their rather unsatisfying morale (standard pikes in any case) plus their sky-high requirements and they're pretty much superflous. with proper teched up pikes or swiss ones especially it's somewhat different, but still the manpower issue remains. Only MedMod adds 20% to the pike's unit size because of this shortcoming, but it can also be modded in manually of course.
but :focus: : I once defeated a Swiss army led by a capable general with, among others, 3 units of insurmountable armoured pikemen with a last minute rag-tag army ....okay I outnumbered them 2,5:1 or something and lost more than 2/3 of my troops but the match winners were two units of militia sergeants - granted, with all kinds of upgrades but still MS. While being extinguished themselves they held off two of the three armoured pikes and even managed to kill the Swiss general in the process. yay!
oversimplified conclusion: pike :surrender: before MS.
no seriously. they just aren't worth the effort most of the time.
The buildup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
Depends on the fatigue as well ~:).Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Templar
The difference in charge could mean the militia sergs rout on impact if their morale is already low...
~:eek: WHAT!! ~:confused: Do you mean ... :no: camels no win? :shame:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside
~:mecry:
Although Ironside is probably right he is probably hoping Mithrandir does not see his post.
I agree with Ciaran about the pikes. They have a horrendous buildup and must be used differently than any other unit types, but they can be a lot of fun. I much prefer Swiss pikes to vanilla (armoured or not). They have the right numbers to form up into even blocks when six ranks deep and their morale is sky-high, as well as their other stats being very nice as well. I'd usually line up five of them in a massive phalanx block and steamroller right across the map. The key to not getting wrapped is the larger group formation. You can wrap around one unit, but five is a little harder, especially with polearms to watch the flanks and CMAA behind the phalanx to fill in any gaps. Lower build requirements might help, though, especially for the AI which hardly ever fields any.
Ajax
Hmm. Pikes should be used like riot-police tactics. To push the barbarians in the direction you want them to go. Treat like a mobile wall with very fragile corners, pretty much exactly the way ajaxfetish said. If your using just 1 or 2 units of pikes then you need to either rethink your tactics or go back to what you know best.
To desperately try to tie this back in to topic. How well would MS fare against Pikes, full frontal, unit to unit? Would they be able to work there way in to any reasonable effect, or would the Pikes stall them long enough for them to get squished by the Pikes or something else?
Hard to say, if they manage to take the pikes in the flank or rear, they´ll probably beat them. Head on, they might have difficulties.
Ajax: In my current game I don´t own Switzerland, so no Swiss (Armoured) Pikes for me :no:
But fully upgraded, even the vanilla pikes pack quite a punch, if used correctly. In contrast to spears, I´ve found, you should order pikes to attack occasionally, as long as you make sure you keep the line of your pike units intact, the line formation key is your friend - give the order to attack for one pike unit, then select the others , then hit "1" and they´ll form up in a neat line on level with the fighting unit.
Regarding the numbers, on Medium they have the same 133 men as spears.
One-on-one I think a lot depends on how many ranks into which the Pikes are formed. On 4 ranks deep or less, the Militia Sergeants seem to hold their own quite well against plain Pikemen - things get tougher for them when 5/6 ranks are used. Since MS get no rank bonus, if not threatened by cavalry they can readily use 2 ranks or less, and overlap the ends of any individual deep pike unit. If faced with integrated formations of several pike units, this edge is minimized. But considering the low costs and tech requirements for MS, I find them very useful (especially in Early) as general-purpose, do-it-all infantry. They aren't too great at anything, but don't suck either, and are cheap! Can't say that about Pikemen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior
My latest tactic has been grouping a MS and a FMAA together, pointing them at a target and letting them go. Full front, flank or otherwise they tend to do pretty well. Full front was pretty wasteful, I lost the most that way, but one battle I took a pair and sent them into the right side of a mass of enemies trying to fold up a spear unit last night.
As soon as contact was made the green part of the kill ratio bar started to jump. Within a minute what was left of the mass was in full rout. I had some Jinnies scoop up the rest, for a mass execution later.
I like pikes too, and as long as they are sufficently armored, they can be a great force to reckon with. Problems arise when they get shot up:oops: ; aganist the AI I find the xbow cav and some arbalests shoot them up big time, whittling down their numbers to a manageble level, if they don't rout first.
Another problem sometimes is their movement rate, as armored up they move slow. Great for defensive battles, just camp and conquer:2thumbsup: !
This thread has got me thinking of my concept for a peasant army Portugal game. Since in XL they get a 100 man MS type unit I wanted to have decent armies of low maintenance troops. Basically I want to play a mercantile campaign, GA style. Unfortunately the Elmos have been declaring war on me forcing me to force them out of Iberia and kill a couple of their kings. Now they're down to about 200 men in Morocco after a nasty civil war. I just hope that my defensive, peasant armies can keep the Spanish at bay while I tech up my trade infrastructure.
Militia Sergeants kill horse. It's as simple as that. Armored, or unarmored, it doesn't really matter. See horse. See MS charge horse. See horse die. And don't blink.
MS have one single flaw: low morale. If they get flanked, they will break and run. So yeah, I can see ho charging them with a sacrificial unit of horse, and then flanking them with a *real* unit of horse can get them killed, but that's really not a good use for horse, light or heavy. Halberds btw, will also run in this scenario.
And Camels, these poor guys stand literally no chance vs MS, unless their numbers are ridiculously superior.
I agree on morale but churches and the etc will help out on that end. Never train units without the backing of the local Church. For a mere 200 (or is it 400?) Florins you've considerably increased your staying power.
Militia Sergeants are AP infantry, not anti cavrly infantry, like Chivalric Foot Knights, Halberdiers, Swiss Halberdiers, JHI and Billmen. What makes MS so effective is their AP attack, and half decent armour.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg