Over-rated: Any units controlled by the AI
Under-rated: Any units controlled by me
Seriously, good units in the AI's hands just take a little bit longer to die, bad units in my hands take a few more casualties before routing the AI ~:(
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Over-rated: Any units controlled by the AI
Under-rated: Any units controlled by me
Seriously, good units in the AI's hands just take a little bit longer to die, bad units in my hands take a few more casualties before routing the AI ~:(
Chariots are so overrated. And the Scythed variety are just plain useless. Uncontrollable, and they run amok far too easily. Plus the amount of micromanagement required...
In the end, they only have their fear factor.
why playing on hard?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mount Suribachi
Actually chariots are quite usefull, especially missle chariots like British Light Chariots. They have a good missle attack (10) and have 2 hitpoints. They only cost 500 Denari. When used with cantaribain circle in campaign or when it is allowed in multiplayer are very hard to hit. They can even put up a decent fight at close range. I agree scythed chariots are pretty worthless as they run amok after a few fire arrows volleys. Other heavy Chariots like Egypts are effective against cavalry and have 3 hitpoints also. Although Chariots are crap agianst speamen like triari and such.
Yeah, if I am being besieged by an army led by Scythed Chariots I know I am going to hold the town! I only need a could of poor infantry to tie them up and some missiles to rout them. I dont even bother trying to hold the walls.
I form up in the town center and because the chariots move last after the walls are down they will hit all their own troops on the way in, get to my troops first, be routed and then hit all their own troops in their out again!
The less I kill the better! So many heroic victories in the east thanks to the enemy units. So I agree, scythed chariots are overrated.
the thing i hate about chariots is that they scare people. thats normal, but almost my whole army routed be cause they were near a chariot. anyway i can always take out the fear factor if i want.
Once I besieged a city with relative few men but with a great Seleucid general. I'm deploying my troops far away from the wall-less city. Suddendly, the enemy is two bowshots away, my general gets under attack. I think: "What...." , zoom in and get the message: "Your general died a heroic death". Then I see my own chariots circling through my cavalry and I understand :embarassed:
Overated-anything in a chariot or on an elephant,
underated- the Gallic woodsmen unit, or something along those lines, its an archer unit with stealth, don't know exact name, friend has game. :furious3:
The unit you're referring to are Forresters and yes, they are the best archer unit in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Celtic_Guardian
As for the chariots? This debate is floating around a lot lately and I seem to be in the middle of it. Look at my profile and look back at a thread I made a few days ago about my epic battles with the Gauls as the Brits.
Sorry, but the bottomline is that anyone who thinks chariots are overrated, just doesn't know what to do with them.
Just to address something else I just saw on this thread:
Egyptian Chariots and British Chariots are NOT equal. British chariots are more effective and cost less because the Brits are considered THE primary chariot faction in the game. Look at elephants...sure the Seleucid army has 'em but they're stronger and cheaper when you buy them as the Carthaginians. Again, as with the Brits and Chariots...Carthage is considered THE primary elephant faction.
This is all just part of the balancing process by the devs...and I think they've done quite well (or did...doubt they've worked on it much lately).
Lastly, about chariots: Yes the Egyptian Chariots are a little overrated, although Egyptian Heavy chariots are still among the fastest kill rate in the game. British Heavy Chariots= sorry, nothing kills as much as fast if used properly. Along with the fanatical infantry...Brittania has one of the most powerful militaries in the game IMO.
Hmm anyone who said that it's impossible to defeat Roman armies online when you're not roman is wrong imo. With nicely balanced Seleucids I've been able to destroy all roman armies thrown at me (when I still played online that is)
overrated: chariots (they're quite effective if you can run through a unit but if they get stuck, game's over, so just throw some more units at them mostly)
underrated basternae
I've beaten Carthaginian and Roman armies online using barb factions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conradus
Then again, I've also lost 3000 men with this tactic :furious3:
:skull: Ouch. 3000? That's one hek of a Pyrrhic victory. Highest losses I've got in victory online is about 1800-2200
Over-rated:
Praetorian and Urban Cohorts -Like the guys who mentioned this earlier, they're just plain overkill. Plus they're so expensive to train and maintain.
The elephants and Scythed chariots- Sure they cause alot of havoc, but hit them with a few arrow and they'll make a one-eighty and hurt you.
Under-rated:
Forrester Warband- I got my ass handed to me when I fought the gauls for the first time, thanks to these guys.
Eastern Infantry/Mercenaries- I like using these as much as possible. They're a quick garrison, Calvary deterrent plus they're not so bad fighting with other infantry. Too bad they're little under powered and that damn "poor moral"
label.
Hastati and the Triarii- Just like they're way too under-powered.
Comments on Overs:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardruid
Urbans and Praes are over-kill, but at least they're not those sodding gladiators. I virtually never build those.
Never had much luck with melee Chariots -- get stuck and take high casualties too readily, though the archer chariots can be useful in open terrains (Brits better than Eggies).
I rather like elephants, but I use them sparingly. They work well as bait, since the enemy "shot" will often target them a little longer than it should and open themselves up for a cavalry stomping. Elephants preceding the general at the key point can be a big help, but I rarely used them as anything but a reserve.
Auxilia: As replacements for triarii, you should feel cheated. Neither of them is more than average against cavalry, despite the bonus, but at least the triarii will continue fighting.
Comments on Unders:
Foresters are a tough opponent -- and would be tougher if the AI took true advantage of them.
Eastern Inf is not under-rated IMO. Mostly, they're just fodder and rarely hold much better than town watch. If you can pair them up with a general who adds 4 or more morale they become decent.
Eggy bowmen -- the 50% bonus in size is huge, allowing them to be a fabulous garrison force. Combine them with stone walls and you've got a tough nut to crack.
It isnt necessarily impossible to beat rome on multiplayer with 15k, but if you go anything over that it just gets harder. Yes the seleucids can beat Rome pretty regularly, Armenia, Pontus, and Eygpt can do well against them too.
Ive never really had a go at a full-blown Gaul campaign, but I'd dearly love to try them soon just to use those Forresters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardruid
Ya they are really the only saving grace for the Gauls in my opinion. They are fun to use in quick battles with lots of forests.
Over-rated/under-rated units :
Over-rated units: Horse archers (just try to fight in a city whith them....:embarassed: )
Under-rated units: Bastarnae, Peltas (combined, they can kill lots and lots of elite roman soldiers whith minimum losses...)
Over-rated factions : Gaul (poor starting position, poor units, a good meal for the romans), Greeks (no decent cavalry)
Under-rated factions : Numidia (everybody avoids playing them, but used correctly, a combination of numidian legionares + desertman + archers, cavalry and camels can kill any army) , Pontus (the strongest faction in my opinion).
People tend to crap on Eastern Infantry because they don't understand or ignore the dynamics of the Parthian army (in the game, at any rate). Eastern Infantry are an en masse unit for use against cavalry--particularly the chariots that may be too abundent for HA's to kill fast enough. They supplement Parthia's cavalry; they are not frontline infantry designed to fight the Romans or Seleucids.
Eastern Infantry rule
Sometimes i was able to kill a enemy general whith 3 units of Eastern Infantry....Quote:
Eastern Infantry rule
I`m curios about the relation between eastern infantry and hillmen... noth of them are crap infantry, but in large numbers...
If you actually do try to use them in serious melee against infantry, Easterners are your anchor, while Hillmen are used in conjuction to outflank. It's actually quite effective combined with HA's.
Interesting. I never thought of using them as a mob unit against cavalry, but I can see how it would work. However, they don't rule: you can only use them against isolated cavalry units because their low armour and morale make them very vulnerable to flanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandInquisitor
Updating my list here and trying to revive the thread.
Overated: Spartans, Melee Chariots, Archer Auxillia, Praetorian Cohorts, Generals Bodyguard, Armourned General's Bodyguard
Underated: Scruti, Slingers, Head Hurlers, Missle Chariots, Bronze Shields, Cataphract Camels, Falxmen, Peoni Infantry, Light Lancers, Royal Pikemen
Well. I rather like AA, but your Overs list is pretty well in line with mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by {BH}Goalie
As to the unders, I have heard many good things about most of the listed units, save for Camel-cats. What's so good about them (Please note, that is a genuine question as I've never used 'em -- dumped my Parthia game early)?
Don't forget Urban Cohorts. Also underated is auxilia(spearmen). Don't forget mercenary hoplites are underated.Quote:
Originally Posted by {BH}Goalie
I seriously think you guys are overrating Eatsern infantary, I picked off three hundred plus with three units of berserkers, and i upgraded the Eastern guys a lot just to give them some chance (Two silver chevrons and fully upgraded armour),
Overrated: Eastern infantary
Underated: Berserkers.
Keep the berserkers out of sight until your armies are fighting, then let slip the "Bers" of War
Gotta agree with all those that said chariots are overrated, all you have to do is time your countercharge right and almost any infantry unit can take them apart, although they still kill way too many of my horseman. :embarassed:
Along with berserkers I would have to say that Chosen Axeman are under rated, seriously any guys that can take apart a roman legion wearing only trousers have got to make that toga-wearing Senate very unhappy.
:laugh4:
....maybe its the honking great AXE that makes the togate folk unhappy -- its not what you wear, but the accessories that make the outfit.:2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugout
Underrated: Roman Light Auxilia - dirt cheap and pretty dangerous at the same time.
Overrated: Camels.
This kind of battle doesn't prove Easterners are overrated. They have uses, and perform them well, but your simulation doesn't show one of them. It shows one of their limitations, albeit in an extreme way. Berserkers are obscenely strong, possibly the game's most formidable melee unit; Eastern Infantry, as I've said, are not a frontline unit against fresh heavy infantry and especially elite units, even upgraded to the max (I'm partial to them, I overpraise them for kicks, but I do recognize their limitations.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Spart
A unit of Berserkers on Medium (don't care about higher difficulties with those boni) can rout a unit of Armoured Elephants. Berserkers can also take out Urbans and Spartans if handled right; and a unit of either of them is obviously a match for upgraded Easterners. It's all in handling and picking what moments Easterners are good for, the same as with most other units.
Yes that isnt really a fair comparison. Easterns by sheer numbers can be very effective against cavalry. Also AA compare very badly in value with Roman archers. AA only have 8 missle attack for 440 denari, granted they do have a longer range. Regular archers have 7 missle and are only 190 denari, you can cheaply upgrade you Roman Archers and be better than AA and spend less money. Auxilia arent underated in my opinion. Although cheaper that triari, triari are a much better value. To answer your question, Cata Camels are very effective agianst cavalry, inculding cataphracts which can be a tough job for all other cavalry, although I rarely if ever use them in 1 vs 1 games, but in team games Parthia can be quite good.