Bring back the Khazar Khaganate :P
They were the best role model for a tolerance and diverse state perhaps on par with the Tang Dynasty.
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Bring back the Khazar Khaganate :P
They were the best role model for a tolerance and diverse state perhaps on par with the Tang Dynasty.
The Turkish government shutting down church buildings in the 60s/70s is simply general knowledge - are you saying its not true?Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Many of the so called secular Muslim countries practise subtle religious discrimination despite constitutional protection. By using discriminatory restrictive zoning laws, approval committees, anti-proselytization laws and family laws non-Muslims are constantly reminded of their inferior status.
For example in Malaysia where I come from which is considered to be a very tolerant secular country, zoning laws allocate more resources to Muslim places of worship compared to other religions. Then Muslim clerics who staff commitees get to decide final approval on building permits for churches/temples. Proselytizing among Muslims is not allowed although the reverse (to get non-Muslims to convert to Islam) is encouraged with active government support/agencies. Magnificent mosques with huge domes are built from public funds (yes - non-Muslims pay for mosques too) while churches/temples must be funded directly out of non-Muslim pockets. Malaysia has relaxed some discriminatory laws like 'special' building permits for churches/temples but it has done so only very recently and after pressure from 9/11.
It is irksome to see Muslims enjoying their religious freedom in their own and in western countries and acting like its no more than their just due while not sparing a thought for their own brethren back home.
I'm not bashing Turkey, but the revisionism. What you write just goes against what i learn in university, and its not with website that you will make an impression on me. Turkey was a country i intend to visit, with a rich history. Unfortunatly for me and Turkey, i dont think it'll happen. Denying an holocaust or erasing writings on monument are things that get to me, so its nothing personal. Come to Canada and i'll pay you a drink :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Oh well I hate to open up the "old books" but Fragony was calling Islam sick and perverted while finishing his sentences with a similar offer. ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by UglyandHasty
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to be welcome there but what I need is common sense and unbiased and courageous way of perception, first. After the approval of a commission of historians coming from every environment, I'll be glad to welcome you to Turkey, make you die from the taste of the best kebab on the surface of the earth and complete the fest with "lion's milk" accompanied with melons and cheese. :bow:
Never heard of it -but I'm not saying it's not true. I'll look into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
Well I should put this straight. Since the times of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, Muslim people generally share the belief that the more non-Muslims are given the more disastrous it will be. There is a general idea derived from the history books how the empire was broken into pieces by the demands of the West about the "improvement of non-Muslim societies". One's religion does not absolutely interest the other, however people can't keep themselves from the thought of those non-Muslim communities being used as tools to mess with the internal affairs of Turkey. I, personally, don't have a clear idea on that.
For example, that AKP government is accused of selling a 26 million dollar worth land to a Christian sect called "Asompsiyon Rahipleri" in order to "get along with" EU's demands. In some news that sect was called to be even banned in France and so I contacted Louis on the matter asking if he knew something. He told that "Asompiyon" may be "Ascension" in original ("Rahipleri" means "priests") and that nearly every Catholic sect had those two names. He also added that he couldn't find out anything. The representative priest is said to be named Alain Fontaine..The reason I'm telling you this is that this news is being forwarded along emails to tell about what AKP has done. I know there are fake news made up easily and turned around in order to heat things up but this news is even said to have documentary proof, I'll see if I can translate it. Although the main problem is that if this sect is for real or not, and if so, that whether they are banned or not.
It is a very bizzare statement and unfortunately not its not the first I've heard of something similar but at least you're being frank.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
How would giving Turkish non-Muslims basic religious freedom be disastrous for national security considering non-Muslims number a miniscule 1% of the population? How would anyone interpret the closing of the only remaining seminary on a flimsy pretext and confiscations except as a totally sinister measure to eradicate Christianity from the country. And it just seems like non-Muslims are viewed with suspicion as potential fifth columns in their own countries.
http://www.csce.gov/index.cfm?Fuseac...TOKEN=56116027
Heres a link about the Turkish orthodox church about the closing of the Halki seminary among other things:-
".....This seminary, which was closed in 1971 on the pretext that privately run institutions were no longer legal, was the only school in the country for the training of Orthodox clergy....."
How that secular Muslims can tolerate discrimination (zoning laws/family laws/ confiscations/proseltyzing laws) in their own countries in the 21st century or are totally ignorant of such practices under their very noses.
Personally I don't have an informed opinion on the Armenian genocide but considering that the Turkey occupies the area of the previous Byzantine empire which was full of Christians who now only constitute less than 1%, the humilliating circumstances of dhimmitude as expounded by Bat Ye'or and the general obdurate attitude of Muslims toward non-Muslims I think its probably true.
You must be kidding right?Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
Certainly, I agree with you on the fact that non-Muslims are treated poorly in Muslim nations (eg. Copts in Egypt). Yet bringing up Bat Yeor...
Do you have anything specific to say about Bat Ye'or?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
Well, ignoring the fact that she takes a very "pick and choose" or selective methodology when talking about historical events, it's quite clear that the woman who coined the term "Eurabia" would not be a very objective source to bring up...Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
It would be like citing Bertand Russell as a source for historical Christendom...
Well this mentality has been some kind of a "tradition". I told you that it's taking its roots from the collapse years of the Ottoman Empire -not something invented during Republic times. That quite describes it. And I think you can get how conservative a society can be when it comes to subjects like national security. Not something easy to change.Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
Thanks for the info. As I said above, I did not reject such things happening.Quote:
http://www.csce.gov/index.cfm?Fuseac...TOKEN=56116027
Heres a link about the Turkish orthodox church about the closing of the Halki seminary among other things:-
".....This seminary, which was closed in 1971 on the pretext that privately run institutions were no longer legal, was the only school in the country for the training of Orthodox clergy....."
How that secular Muslims can tolerate discrimination (zoning laws/family laws/ confiscations/proseltyzing laws) in their own countries in the 21st century or are totally ignorant of such practices under their very noses.
If you prefer talking on it, you should get informed. At least here, 'cause you'll get answers to that lie as long as I'm around.Quote:
Personally I don't have an informed opinion on the Armenian genocide but considering that the Turkey occupies the area of the previous Byzantine empire which was full of Christians who now only constitute less than 1%, the humilliating circumstances of dhimmitude as expounded by Bat Ye'or and the general obdurate attitude of Muslims toward non-Muslims I think its probably true.
What's more I'm quite concerned with how things get managed to be converted in a religious war nowadays..And as if this was such an unbelivable thing to happen in medieval times. Noone prefers to make notes about his very own religion's attituted towards another while exploiting every little chances occured..(Crusades, anyone?)
Ottomans rose to power from a small beylik, because they were carrying the banner of Islam, attracting mücahids from the rest of the Anatolia, and they were fighting against Christian Byzantium. This is one of the most influential motives behind the rise of Ottomans.
And when you conquer and inhabit an area, the previous residents either get killed, or assimilated/oppressed or leave the area. I wonder what's being so tragic about that happening in medieval times. I also wonder why a state would suddenly decide total destruction of an ethnicity after years of peace.
"Probably true" is opening doors to accusation of a whole nation with a fictive, unproven genocide that is avoided from being discussed. And concluding this from a Jewish expelled from her homeland due to her religion and the natural inhabitance process of somewhere conquered makes it even more irrational and ugly.
So LEN, would u support the open toleration of other religions proselyting in Turkey?
Not only that the building of new churches if Christians in Turkey decide to use their own funds for it?
LeftEyeNine, did it ever occur to you that what you call "an unproven genocide" might be in fact a genocide ? That all the stuff you believe might be an offical cover up ? You never doubt, even after reading what IrishArmenian GranMother told him ? You'll call that an Armenian lie ?
Others' beliefs don't concern me. As long as it is all about religion, I have no interest in it. People should be allowed to believe what they want the way they wish. I underline the part : As long as it is all about religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by kataphraktoi
Why do I always have to remind my posts ?Quote:
LeftEyeNine, did it ever occur to you that what you call "an unproven genocide" might be in fact a genocide ? You never doubt, even after reading what IrishArmenian GranMother told him ? You'll call that an Armenian lie ?
...:juggle2: ....:juggle2: .....:juggle2: ...
Ok then..
Well, UglyAndHasty, since the issue is brought up by Armenians as a genocide, depending on the documents that have official records, I call it an unproven genocide.Quote:
Originally Posted by By Me At 1st Page
I'm sure you are able to think vice versa of the situation? And that is what I'm talking about from the start.Quote:
That all the stuff you believe might be an offical cover up ?
You promise me to read all posts by me, because I'm the only one countering the debate here -however repeatedly ignored with his posts-, and I'll tell you something I did for a couple of times:
Turks killed Armenians (topping 1 million), because Armenians killed Turks (an approximate of 514.000, starting from 1876 Russian-Ottoman war). The casualties called to be a "genocide" happened during "Relocation". Here is the regarding part of my post done in the related thread that describes what "Relocation" was. It's a bit long, so I'll spoiler-tag it.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Well its a very bizzare 'tradition' of punitive measures on the flimsy basis of national security. It doesn't even make sense in the 15th century much less the 21st.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
The roots may be from the Ottoman past but many secular Muslim countries actually regressed in terms of religious tolerance fairly recently; from the 60s-90s (which is well after Ataturk) their secular governments reached out to Islamist groups and promoted Islamisation of their societies. In the case of Malaysia this was done by promoting aggressive dakwah, Islamic banking, changing the education curricula to be revisionist and pro-Muslim and passing discriminatory family/religious laws.
Point taken and when secular Muslims can generally somehow be totally ignorant and/or condone the subtle religious persecution that goes on right under their very noses, I should be very skeptical about their version of the Armenian genocide as well.Quote:
If you prefer talking on it, you should get informed. At least here, 'cause you'll get answers to that lie as long as I'm around.
What's more I'm quite concerned with how things get managed to be converted in a religious war nowadays..And as if this was such an unbelivable thing to happen in medieval times. Noone prefers to make notes about his very own religion's attituted towards another while exploiting every little chances occured..(Crusades, anyone?)
.......
Did the Armenians live as dhimmis right up to the 20th century?
I beleive that the "ethnic cleansing" of the Ottoman empire was somewhat new. Most Muslim empires were in fact, quite tolerant of Christians and Jews as long as they paid more in their taxes.
What kind of "Relocation" involves deathmarches into the Syrian desert?
What sort of "Relocation" starves children?
Where does "Relocation" become a swappable term for killing?
Left Eye Nine, and everyone else. I think you all for the most part use google? Just Google Image Armenian Genocide and you will find disgusting and cruel pictures of bone-thin suffering people (lots of children) and bodies in stacks. There, along with the stories from many ambassadors, politicians and EVEN TURKISH HISTORIANS prove the so-called "unproven" Genocide.
Can you tell me about your other experiences of 15th century?Quote:
Well its a very bizzare 'tradition' of punitive measures on the flimsy basis of national security. It doesn't even make sense in the 15th century much less the 21st.
It's year 2006 and our prime minister Tayyip Erdogan defends the relationship between his counsellor and Yasin El-Kadi, who is internationally listed as a financial supporter of radical Islamic actions. This happened yesterday. Your best point in this debate was this one, it's gone worse about secularism after the death of Atatürk.Quote:
The roots may be from the Ottoman past but many secular Muslim countries actually regressed in terms of religious tolerance fairly recently; from the 60s-90s (which is well after Ataturk) their secular governments reached out to Islamist groups and promoted Islamisation of their societies. In the case of Malaysia this was done by promoting aggressive dakwah, Islamic banking, changing the education curricula to be revisionist and pro-Muslim and passing discriminatory family/religious laws.
No you should review your point and take the one that expresses the idea that it was not Christian Armenians, it was Armenians that got killed. This is "subtle religious" provocation indeed.Quote:
Point taken and when secular Muslims can generally somehow be totally ignorant and/or condone the subtle religious persecution that goes on right under their very noses, I should be very skeptical about their version of the Armenian genocide as well.
Is this what you mean by "dhimmi"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Andalucian Jews were running away from Spanish Inquisition, they were living out of Ottoman reign.Quote:
I beleive that the "ethnic cleansing" of the Ottoman empire was somewhat new. Most Muslim empires were in fact, quite tolerant of Christians and Jews as long as they paid more in their taxes.
You gave casualties topping 1 million during that. I'm worried to see that happening but I repel the the dictation of murders being swapped with the term "genocide", because it was not a genocide.Quote:
What kind of "Relocation" involves deathmarches into the Syrian desert?
What sort of "Relocation" starves children?
Where does "Relocation" become a swappable term for killing?
Or let me put it that way..
What kind of rebellion is it that you gather the women of the village and rape them all in mosques?
What kind of rebellion is that you don't leave a living creature behind after you rush into a town?
Where does it say that your loss is a "Genocide" but ours is not even heard of or ignored ?
Image in spoiler tag.Quote:
Left Eye Nine, and everyone else. I think you all for the most part use google? Just Google Image Armenian Genocide and you will find disgusting and cruel pictures of bone-thin suffering people (lots of children) and bodies in stacks.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
See the rest at http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/index.html
The reason you will find enormous number of sites about so-called Armenian Genocide credits to the ignorant Turkish society who were unaware how severely the problem was assembling right in front of them.
But the main reliable and documentary based websites countering the existence of the so-called Armenian Genocide are:
Ermeni Sorunu.Gen.Tr
Tall Armenian Tale.Com
Im not asking if u're interesting in other beliefs. I'm asking do you support the freedom of other religions in Turkey to prosyletise??? Whether you have an interest in religion is irrelevant, I'm talking about freedom here.Quote:
Others' beliefs don't concern me. As long as it is all about religion, I have no interest in it. People should be allowed to believe what they want the way they wish. I underline the part : As long as it is all about religion.
Plus, I'm asking you if u would support the right of non-Muslims to erect their own structures in Turkey. Its simple.
If u don't support it, just say "No" then, I won't respect you any less because at least you are honest.
You sarcasm obviously shows how you feel about discriminatory practices against non-Muslims right in your own country.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
I didn't even realise it was a point of debate. I was merely pointing out that the closing of the last seminary in Turkey happened in the 70s when secular Muslim countries were in the process of Islamising.Quote:
It's year 2006 and our prime minister Tayyip Erdogan defends the relationship between his counsellor and Yasin El-Kadi, who is internationally listed as a financial supporter of radical Islamic actions. This happened yesterday. Your best point in this debate was this one, it's gone worse about secularism after the death of Atatürk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kataphraktoi
Your respect has a lower priority than your comprehension for the moment.Quote:
Others' beliefs don't concern me. As long as it is all about religion, I have no interest in it. People should be allowed to believe what they want the way they wish. I underline the part : As long as it is all about religion.
And, no I won't give you the short answer as long as you insist on showing the manner that you want to hear "no" from me.
Weird ability to correlate and comprehend, overwhelms me, sir.Quote:
You sarcasm obviously shows how you feel about discriminatory practices against non-Muslims right in your own country.
I just don't get how you can judge on an event in 15th century. From a modern point of view religious discrimination is unacceptable, however this can not rule our its normality in dogmatic years of 15th century. Try looking through the related timeframe. At least I posted in that manner.
Oh, it has been ages since I have last been in this forum. I just logged in after seeing the trailer of M2TW. Lots of new people, lots of new threads. Helloes to all new and old ones.
My advice would be: try to look beyond "genocide" "not genocide" binary assessment. Becuase when you say "it was genocide", most Armenians look away and disregard the extent of their own national chauvinism; invasion and massacre of Turks in Trabzon, Rize by Russian backed Armenian regiment, ASALA terrorism... When you say "it was NOT genocide", most Turks look away and disregard the extent of the national chauvinism, which has costed dearly on former Ottoman subjects; Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Circassians and Jews. ("cost" does not necessarily mean killing)
People understandably get emotional about these issues. Yet, if you MUST discuss these issues, you have to leave your emotions and nerves at the home. Because what we are interested in is scientific evidence and understand what REALLY happened.
As long as we call each other bad words or accuse each other, we can never do that.
Cheers. :juggle2:
Left Eye Nine, your propoganda websites are offensive, angering, and an extreme case of adding insult to injury. I do not know why in someone's right mind would one openly taunt others because of their religon ob ethnic background. "The tall Armenian Tale"? What is that? I cannot believe that you would link to something such as that. I thott that this was a place were we could discuss matters with out descending into being outright offensive. I feel that the link that you showed was inappropriate and dsitasteful. I cannot beleive this, this discussion is coming down to insults that someone with the maturity of a child would make. I will not sink to that level, rather, I will stand by my statements that I made earlier: This is not me judging you (though somehow it seems as if you take it that way) this is a debate of historical events, whether it appears to you that way or not. We do not accuse you, Left Eye Nine, we are discussing histories,WITHOUT THE ADDED GOVERNMENT COVER-UPS
I would say lets leave the discussion to real historians. Because none of us has the sufficient information and access to authentic documents.
Discussion of such topics in forums like this does not accomplish anything. People can boost their ego in lots of different ways. My words are not to IrishArmenian only, but to everyone.
IrishArmenian,
You have just been a proof of how people are "used to" see things the way they want to see it. When counter evidence is put on the table, you get stuck with some words, definitions and avoid the discussion itself and get frustrated in the end.
This is a typical symptom that someone demonstrates when he/she feels weaker for a discussion. In such times you try to "jam" the focus of the debate, pull it elsewhere where plural support can be confused and gathered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Definiton of "Tall"
Obviously, if the website states that Armenian Genocide was all of a well-prepared lie, regarding the definitions above taken from Dictionary.com, it can have such name. Its content has so much to prove out the rightfulness of the name.That is no blank page there, one that is as strong as any others when you type "Armenian Genocide" in Google.Quote:
Originally Posted by Definition of "Tale"
Additionally, the website is owned by a disguised businessmen that lives in New York, who had learned about his Turkish identity during his childhood and come across with Armenian Issue that is a very popular topic in USA. Then it was his case to research on the subject and it is that website where he gathered all he found. In an interview on a Turkish newspaper, where he did not give out his name as always due to security reasons, he told that the website was under constant pressure by Armenian lobbies, receiving very frequent hack attempts. He belives that if his cover is exposed, his business life and private life will be in danger since that he already was receiving a lot of threats.
Dear friend, if you really want to conclude on the reality of events in the history, not rely on something that you would favor, you should get used to "sink levels". You see, as a bear on this mountain I can see the height of the tree better than a bird like you who is levels above me. If you want to see how tall this tree is, that point of view from above will not provide you much. But if you want to see that tree from above, than there is no reason that we are debating here.Quote:
I will not sink to that level, rather, I will stand by my statements that I made earlier: This is not me judging you (though somehow it seems as if you take it that way) this is a debate of historical events, whether it appears to you that way or not. We do not accuse you, Left Eye Nine, we are discussing histories,WITHOUT THE ADDED GOVERNMENT COVER-UPS
A friendly grizzly bear advice:Quote:
We do not accuse you, Left Eye Nine, we are discussing histories,WITHOUT THE ADDED GOVERNMENT COVER-UPS
- In a forum, when opposing, using plural form -we- instead of the singular one -I- is a well-known attempt to approach the "opponent" in a populistic way, so as to create the image that everyone is behind you. Just express your ideas, and let the others decide whether it is worth agreeing or not, so that you will find "real" support, not a tale-ish one.
- Counter ideas with documentary proof. Accusing a nation as "genocidals" is not so easy while there are evidences disproving it. This is a serious topic, and that's why I'll be insisting on it as long as the truth is revealed historically, whether a genocide or not.
Omit anyone's posts here including mine, that was the most brief and accurate post here:
My regards to Cebei and all contributors with good intentions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cebei
:bow:
P.S. IA, your post is more of a personal insult rather than mine giving some documentary links to you. I see people have no desire to review their "religion" (yes it's already been a dogma to you, I see).
I mean we as in everyone who posts here. We are discussing something- you, everyone else posting here, and myslef and I apologize for the personal insult, was a little "influenced" and a little bit angry yesterday. Could you dumb down the whole dogma remark, I do not really understand where you are going with this, (terrible English on my part).
Yes, history should be debated by historians, but it is always a good thing to voice one's opinions. On the other hand, you have people like me who are a wee bit hot-headed, so that always leads to bad things- you do have a point.
Left Eye Nine: It is very hard for me to find verifiable English sites when they mostly use large english that is hard to understand. I can get the meat of it, but really it is much easier to tell people just to look for themselves. I still think that for it to be a "tall tale" it is a large and well thought out lie. Don't you think so? Why exactly would a whole people do that? Did someone go into a room with one or two friends and say "Lets accuse the Turkish government of using the military and mercanarys to kill Armenians. So we kill a lot of our people and relocate them to other areas." I dout it. I wonder about the logic behind labelling the Armenian Genocide a "Tall Tale". Did someone beleive something like what I posted above? You will have to explain this to me.
(I have to admit, nice job comparing the Org to a mountain. Was I a bird because I have not been here long? That was the reason I thought it was so good)
You may be the bird because some of your posts may be viewed by some as looking down on the situation from above, rather than looking at it from the same perspective/intent as the other person/s.
Talking from above and talking eye to eye: two different methods with two different results.
I did not see that. It is very clear now. Thank you Sinan, obviously I'm not the brightest here. I guess I have been arrogant (spelling) here.
Still, I stand by my views on this topic. I am also a stubborn bastard, so do not expect those views to change.
Apologies are the virtues of all virtues as long as they are not repeated. Take it easy. :bow:Quote:
I mean we as in everyone who posts here. We are discussing something- you, everyone else posting here, and myslef and I apologize for the personal insult, was a little "influenced" and a little bit angry yesterday.
Quote:
Could you dumb down the whole dogma remark, I do not really understand where you are going with this, (terrible English on my part).
I think your views on the topic is hardened as steel, you can't even stand hearing the countering idea. That's why I called it a dogma. And a dogma is :Quote:
Still, I stand by my views on this topic. I am also a stubborn bastard, so do not expect those views to change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Definition of Dogma
No, I don't. I should be insane to trace this discussion so far if I shared your views.Quote:
Left Eye Nine: It is very hard for me to find verifiable English sites when they mostly use large english that is hard to understand. I can get the meat of it, but really it is much easier to tell people just to look for themselves. I still think that for it to be a "tall tale" it is a large and well thought out lie. Don't you think so?
You know where Lesser Armenia is? It is the one homelands of Armenians. You know where Asia Minor and Istanbul is? It is where Greeks used to inhabitate for so long.Quote:
Why exactly would a whole people do that? Did someone go into a room with one or two friends and say "Lets accuse the Turkish government of using the military and mercanarys to kill Armenians. So we kill a lot of our people and relocate them to other areas."
Pontus Genocide, Armenian Genocide and all other "bright" ideas are put on the table to win the battle that was lost in the battlefield. The hatred against who came from far and drove the locals away from their homelands are never welcome.
Does Armenian constitution include the following fundamentals? Recognition, Restoration, Reparation ?
As I said, Turks murdered a lot of Armenians. Did you ever see that I rejected that happening in this thread? But what happened after 1915 was the consequence of what had been done to Turks after 1876 by Armenians. This two-sided massacres rule out a genocide. If there is one for you, then Turks can claim Turkish Genocide as well.
I, nor that disguised Turkish businesman, labeled something. When you read my posts, or when you click that link, you come across with documentary and archival information. This not labeling, this is defining. Actually "re-defining" will put it better.Quote:
I wonder about the logic behind labelling the Armenian Genocide a "Tall Tale". Did someone beleive something like what I posted above? You will have to explain this to me.
You were a bird because you claimed that you were at higher levels than me. Remember that part of the post of yours :Quote:
(I have to admit, nice job comparing the Org to a mountain. Was I a bird because I have not been here long? That was the reason I thought it was so good)
So that I could be levels down you, a grizzly bear on this mountain. However I have a better perspective to see how tall that tree is (=Armenian Issue). So altitude between us meant nothing indeed. What's more by apologizing, you have just "sunk down some levels", but since it is a better mutual understanding right now, who cares about "levels"? You have landed on the branch of a tree and it feels better now.Quote:
I will not sink to that level, rather, I will stand by my statements that I made earlier..
Also Sinan put it quite good too.
So, could we not call the Armenians killing Turks a genocide, and the Turks killing Armenians Genocides at the same time? I beleive so, and this stubborn bastard just changed his views. (Me obviously)