I usually use light fast cavalry for ambushes but it really depends on what units I have to use.
Printable View
I usually use light fast cavalry for ambushes but it really depends on what units I have to use.
Something cheap is my recommendation. Probably something that will stick a bit so your ambushers aren't chasing after units that are chasing after your routing goat.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamff
Congrats on the 100th post. My 200th snuck by me not to long ago and I wasn't even paying attention.
I try to take advantage of the distance doesn't matter principle in my ambushes, for instance sending hidden cavalry to hit enemy archers in the back once the infantry line is engaged. I keep the cavalry far enough away that they won't be stumbled across during the approach, so the archers should have plenty of time to see them coming across open ground, but I still should get the ambush bonus. The biggest problem is their units will move around and my ambushers will usually run into some other troops (even if they only get other archers in the way) and so lose the bonus. I can't order them around the other unit(s) because that would also lose them the bonus. Grrr.
Ajax
Very true - does anyone know if using waypoints removes the ambush bonus, too?Quote:
I can't order them around the other unit(s) because that would also lose them the bonus. Grrr.
My favorite faction is the Polish. If I have steppies, they are my absolute favorite to ambush with. They help with an ambush problem I often have. It seems to me that sometimes it's difficult to get ambushers to arrive at the right time. Oh, and I hate it when your ambushers get flanked by the unit trying to go way around to flank what it thinks is your main line. Anyway, steppe cavalry are wicked quick and you don't generally have to think to much about when to strike. They can also redeploy quickly if the ambush idea goes to pot. :furious3:
Yeah, that ambush going to pot seems to happen to me on occasion, though my cav ambush units sometimes :dizzy2: enjoy being chased around ther map. I noticed the jinnetes one time ran off the field after getting the message that they were discouraged from constant retreat as the AI troops kept moving out of position to try and tackle them.
I had in one battle some cav have faster type of soldiers chase them completely around the battlefield while I had a horsearcher and xbow cav shooting at them, eventually routing the cav:furious3: , though the 60 AI unit was eventually depleted to the 13 level (tough unit).
My favourite ambushing troops are Mounted Crossbows. Because firstly they have crossbows and are decent at melee, way better than HA.
I like xbow cavs too, but they are slow and sometimes mine get chewed on by AI RKs. The xbows do okay for killing and annoying from a distance, though in melee sometimes they get beat up by ordinary cav (not HAs).
I like having a unit of Napthas out there in the woods. Get too close and BOOM!!! :bomb2: :bomb2: :bomb2: :bomb2: :bomb2:
I've not EVER used naptha throwers... Heck, I rarely build the seige weapons bldg anyway--usually I just take one over and use that one (and rarely at that!).
Fast cav is the best for ambushes v. infantry. If you're up against a cav heavy army, medium infantry with high attack modifiers work REALLY well if you can position yourself behind a wall of trees. Wait for the attacker to bring his cav up, then you mob them in the trees, and down go the horsies. This works quite well v. the Mongols.
always cav, sometimes light for line flaning and sometimes heavy for taking out the gen --> it really depends on map
I'm joking about the Napthas, I only play the Catholic factions (well, that is). I do think it would be cool as hell though... "Okay, Hans, you and your Swordsmen sneak those woods over there... quiet, quiet.... BOOM!"
I actually use whatever swordsmen I've got (typically w/o armour though). I don't like using Cav. Yes, good speed, but if they themselves get caught in the woods, lots of dead horsies.
Yes, dead horsies:laugh4: . I seem to abuse my cav units as I often lose quite a few of them, though some are merc units though. I often use them as bait, though I like them to try and ambush too, but it doesn't always work out, more like I get ambushed! But they work out well, and I miss them when I am trying to run down those AI retreaters!
Quote:
Originally Posted by danfda
After reading this thread in the afternoon I continued with my English GA campaign and implemented some of the advice concerning ambushes/woodfighting when the opportunity presented itself. I besieged Livonia castle with my crusade when I got an uprising consisting of 500 vanillia spears, 6 units of boyars and a sh*load of Proloi totalling 2700 men. The crusade could not move out and I had troubles influence/loyalty-wise so how to rescue the 2 units of Templar, 1 orderfoot and 1 fanatics? Livonia=wood and Highlander and Gallows rule the wood :idea2: So I moved all units I could spare of these to Livonia. Battlemap had as expected lots of big connecting woods and I picked a roughly square one to the end of my mapside deploying the orderfoot just outside with the highland/Gallow mix in the woods with 4 units forming an angel on the far side of the orders. My gen and two Templar units behind the middle of the line.
The rebs sent in 5 proloi to scout me out and as soon as they made contact (well got ambushed) I saw how the combination of wood and surprise works - after less than 2 min on normal battletime about 20 of the 100 proloi made it back to their battleline (and continued beyond) with losses of about 15 on my side. Keeping my units in the woods I massacred wave after wave of them winning with a 1:10 loss ratio with most of my units having 80 kills or more - the boyars were useless as I noticed only slight arrow losses as long as I kept my units in the woods.
To get to the point of the thread (finally;) - as mentioned fast and high attack but depending on opponent a bit of antiarmor makes for better results if in the wood and not outside of it - so in vanillia MTW I d say Vikings/Gallows/Gazi prob woodmen if from Lavatia and morale up then Highlanders and Fanatics if ambush in the woods. On hilly maps with no/little wood any fast Cav from behind a hill (fast as not to get into an ambush themselves if the AI smells something rotten) - so steppe/Jinnies on engage/Saharan cav - with caution HA and MXB (the morale thingy again)
My favorite ambush ever occurred on one of the first times I faced the Horde. I had my battle line up against some woods on my right flank. I was playing as the English, and I had some of those wonderful English billmen with a valor bonus and some extra armor and attack points positioned forward of my lines so that they could hit the enemy in the rear and the flank after he made contact.
Instead of coming after my battle line though, the Horde sent unit after unit of their heavy cav into those woods. I was simply amazed at how quickly those billmen laid them to rest. The Cav couldn't even flee out of the woods before each unit was reduced to a couple of men. I was also amazed that the Horde didn't decide to go after my left flank after awhile, but it seems as though once the AI has chosen a flank, they stick with it. I think the only units to get any kills from the main battle line were my archers.
I also have a slightly different ambush technique which works well against the horde, and to a lesser extent the cav-heavy muslim nations (as long as you're not in the desert). I get very bored with the attacks consisting of 4 stacks of Mongol Horse Archers. The shoot up my men, and I have trouble catching them when they skirmish away, which they do any time a unit gets anywhere near them. So. . .I set up Mounted Sergeants in Ambush positions ahead of and to one or both flanks of my main line. When the HA get within bowshot of my line, I order the Cav to come out of hiding and engage them. Then, just as quickly as I can click my orders, I send the billmen out of the line to attack the same unit. If I'm lucky, and all goes well, the Mounted Sergeants will be able to hold on to them just long enough to let my billmen get there and make some kills. It can be a tedious process, but to me it's one of the only ways to eventually whittle down that huge, fast army when you're playing a slow, armored Catholic faction.
Yeh, I've just finally realised ther joys of mounted sarges, especially with weapon upgrades!
I'm a long-standing English fan, so all those trees don't help my Longbows one bit... (nor my favoured massed catapults / canons!)
There are two ambush tactics I tend to use. First is the trees on one flank (usually right up against the edge of the map). I'll stick my melee troops in the forest and the spears exposed. This gives everybody a bonus against cavalry (not so worried about infantry with my ranged weapons chewing them up) and also against missiles (either shield or tree defence), but I also do it because I thought spear units suffered penalties in trees themselves (since it ruins their pretty formations). In Viking Era, I find myself doing this a lot against the Irish with all their (short) ranged weapons.
Second is to put a cav unit in a treeline far away from my main line, off to the side and front. Once the enemy's army have passed them, I send my cav to take out any totally-exposed artillery before sending them behind the enemy army to either make them the filling in a sandwich or to draw off / stall parts of their army, making the main fight that much easier for my men (but that much harder to control, with my force now spread across the map!) I also seem to use javelin troops for this (good against enemy foot, but not against cav!) After sending a crusade across to eastern europe last campaign, I found myself fighting many defensive battles with some Slav Javelinmen who had joined the cause. Even if they only drew away a single unit of melee troops each battle, it made the job easier for the rest of my army.
On a somewhat similar note, I am playing a Volga-Bulgar campaign in the XL mod. I had been having massive troubles with boyars in the campaign (notably those from Novgorod) and had yet to find an answer for them (massed arrow fire works, but they would always run away :wall: ). Naturally I invaded Chergonov (or whatever that province is between Peresylavl and Lithuania) owned by the Kievans, who retreated and then sallied with reinforcements: three units of boyars and a 3:1 numerical advantage. Yippie.Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_maxell
I set up in a roughly triangular section of clearing between thick woods. I hid some anti-armor soldiers (woodsmen) in the front section, and stationed my archers and javelin men some distance behind the treeline, to give them some firing time, followed of course by my lovely heavy cavalry. The AI (only on hard) sent scout HAs into the woods and found my woodsmen, but the HAs retreated and I left my troops in there.
The attack was a large wave of spearmen, Rus spearmen, HAs, and the boyars. The spearmen and such came first, so I pulled my guys out of the woods, waited until the enemy got into the clearing, and bombarded them with arrows. A javelinman charge, a couple flanking assaults by my cav, and the enemy infantry reteated. I left my archers to fire on the HAs, and charged my woodsmen and javelin men into the woods after the boyars.
To my delight, they nearly wiped out those bastardly horsies. The general's unit was killed, and another boyar unit was reduced to 2 or 3 men. The third had 21 when it ran off. My casualties were low; most of the damage was taken by the woodsmen when the general's unit got out of the woods just a bit and really stuck them. But the javelin men really carried the day for me. I ended up with a 3 to 1 kill ratio, which was good enough for me with mostly cheap, expendable troops.
Anyway, not really an ambush, but it does relate to the tree topic.
I like to keep a unit or two of Woodsmen with my armies. That way if I find a good spot for an ambush I can bring them on the field and wait for the fun. Woodsmen work great because of there great charge.
Sadly, I rarely find myself defending and ambushes are hard to set up when assaulting. I've never had much success with defending, compared to attacking before I get attacked.
Can't say I'd use the same unit....Quote:
Originally Posted by m52nickerson
I always loved alans for the job, good charge and speed,getting them out of harms way...
woodsman don't have the morale to be on their own imho...
The Ai on expert continues to surprise me sometimes. In my current English campaign, I attacked the HRE in Freisland. What was interesting was that the AI pulled back into the woods, except for his cav. I kept taking potshots with my front archers at the cav I could hit while slowly bringin my troops up. Eventually the AI cav ran into the woods as well.
Hmm, can't see where the other AI troops went, and their cav quickly disappeared. I slowly bring in all my troops, soon see some arrows. A total battle took place in the woods, with some limited missile shooting and hand to hand. Of course, the pc would crash near the middle of it, but it was still exciting while it lasted.
Thought the AI might pull something like this, probably I had more missile type troops ( we were almost even in number of total troops), and the AI wanted to avoid being a pin cushion (no hills either for a good defensive position on the particular battle map we were on).
The Ai likes to set up these ambushes, so as dumb as the AI is supposed to be, watch out. Another type is the artillery trap, where you'll be chasing some routers, and suddenly you have rocks start hittting you. The AI will set up siege engines near its troop entry point, making them almost impossible to take out, though as noted in another thread, you can just leave them there and give them a wide birth (especially if you're defending) and the AI has to fight with a few less regular units.
Sometimes the AI makes some really smart moves when it retreats into the woods for cover. I hate to fight big battles in the wood because it is hopeless to get a good overview of the battlefield and it is really hard to tell units from each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaijinalways
Very true, but I normally set up my ambushes so I can spring them near the main battle. That way my woodsmen are hitting enemy units that are all ready engaged in battle with my main force. I have never set up an ambush any real distance from my main force.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithrandir
A few times I have had peasants rush out of the woods some distance from my regular troops, but they were more for diversionary effect than the actual ambush. But actually, they got the AI archers running and held on long enough with the AI footsoldiers to allow me to bring in my other troops and eventually rout the AI.
Wow, peasants actually have a use.
Yes, they do. They actually are quite fast, so if you can build up their morale a bit and armor them, they'll hang in there longer (instead of running as soon as they see an arrow or sword). They are also great for plowing into the back of someone. But as noted earlier, they are great at chasing archers, as even if they lose, they'll tie up the archers (if they can get close enough) and they might kill some of them. So instead of getting your more expensive troops killed, you have attackers for pennies (as long as they live) who keep archer, even xbows or alabasters, tied up.