Are You Rapture-Ready?

Personally I found it near impossible for a Scandinavian to say anything positive about Christianity. I can somewhat understand the European animosity towards Christianity given their history and the fact that many of the more religious may have emigrated. Mostly I'm curious to see if another religion will fill in this "moral vacuum" as I call it.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Huh? The rally against religion here is pretty much dead nowadays. But by some reason is anything that happens on this front in Sweden world news...
(Well, can you find anything outside a priest that had a speech in invited media that among other things mention that gays is a cancer in society and that some people complained that the schools breaking-up were always done in churches were they was living, decided (rightly so) to be a communal issue, not even big news in Sweden).

Devout christians that mention God all the time is considered quite odd though and a Bush speech when he's starting mentioning God wouldn't recvive much support. But none cares if you goes to church every day.

So to summarise: Christianity got a much more secularised position in Sweden, the only places were it doesn't have it, is remnants of when the state and church were merged. But the rallies against Christianity is from what I've seen, much worse in the US. Here people simply don't care, in average.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Personally I found it near impossible for a Scandinavian to say anything positive about Christianity. I can somewhat understand the European animosity towards Christianity given their history and the fact that many of the more religious may have emigrated. Mostly I'm curious to see if another religion will fill in this "moral vacuum" as I call it.

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Well... what's positive with Christianity?
Give me a good answer that came up within 10 seconds.


I mean we got a guy that had some good ideas and some people that follows it well and has done well for the world.

Then we had some organisation positives in the past and we got the positive side-effects of Religion, like:
Feelings to belong into a group and have someone to speak to.
Thoughts of afterlife and the consequent easierness (that's a word?) to treat the death of people that stand close to you or your own death.
And that those nasty pricks that still succeeds in thier life will get punished anyway. :laugh4:


And "spiritual vacuum" fits better than "moral vacuum" BTW.

well we believe if you lived a good life and die. you go to heaven. which i think is postive.

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Originally Posted by The Spartan

well we believe if you lived a good life and die. you go to heaven. which i think is postive.

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And that is speciffic to Christianity how? :inquisitive:

Elysian fields
Valhalla
Nirvana
Brahma

etc, etc.

I did cover it in my "Religion" section.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Well... what's positive with Christianity?
Give me a good answer that came up within 10 seconds.


I mean we got a guy that had some good ideas and some people that follows it well and has done well for the world.

Then we had some organisation positives in the past and we got the positive side-effects of Religion, like:
Feelings to belong into a group and have someone to speak to.
Thoughts of afterlife and the consequent easierness (that's a word?) to treat the death of people that stand close to you or your own death.
And that those nasty pricks that still succeeds in thier life will get punished anyway. :laugh4:


And "spiritual vacuum" fits better than "moral vacuum" BTW.

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Well a couple things:

First, your 10 second rule. If it takes you 10 seconds to determine your beliefs than there's something wrong with the way you process information. If you're asking what's positive about a solid moral foundation that stresses love and tolerance, I guess you got me there [sic]. Maybe your Christians adhere to the pillage and burn tradition of your ancestors but that's not my experience. Really, what were your ancestors like before Christianity?

Religion, spirituality or whatever you choose to call it is fundamental to our existence as humans. If you look at even the most atheistic archeologist you'll find that they say the existence of religion is a result of our greater cognitive ability.

To deny religion is to deny a part of yourself. Without it what do you rely on, your baser instincts, reason alone? Many religions share many fundamentals for a simple reason, people need to believe. The actions they take as a part of that belief are a different story.

One of the reasons why people oppose religion in the US is that they hate feeling that they may be doing something wrong (I expect that is fairly universal). As a result they lash out against religious symbols and beliefs where ever they see them. One of the reasons I support religion is because of the actions that those people take against it. It's also fun to discuss the differences between religions and ponder their historical significance. You'll also find that, on average, those who are even mildly religious tend to be happier than those who aren't at all.

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Religion, spirituality or whatever you choose to call it is fundamental to our existence as humans. If you look at even the most atheistic archeologist you'll find that they say the existence of religion is a result of our greater cognitive ability.

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Because archeologists are such great experts about cognitive ability...
So, you basically say that atheists are unnatural, immoral, immature, stupid and unhappy. And you seriously wonder why people dislike theists? You gotta be kidding ~:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Well a couple things:

First, your 10 second rule. If it takes you 10 seconds to determine your beliefs than there's something wrong with the way you process information. If you're asking what's positive about a solid moral foundation that stresses love and tolerance, I guess you got me there [sic]. Maybe your Christians adhere to the pillage and burn tradition of your ancestors but that's not my experience. Really, what were your ancestors like before Christianity?

Religion, spirituality or whatever you choose to call it is fundamental to our existence as humans.[i] If you look at even the most atheistic archeologist you'll find that they say the existence of religion is a result of our greater cognitive ability.

To deny religion is to deny a part of yourself.[ii] Without it what do you rely on, your baser instincts, reason alone? [iii] Many religions share many fundamentals for a simple reason, people need to believe.[iv] The actions they take as a part of that belief are a different story.

One of the reasons why people oppose religion in the US is that they hate feeling that they may be doing something wrong (I expect that is fairly universal). As a result they lash out against religious symbols and beliefs where ever they see them. One of the reasons I support religion is because of the actions that those people take against it. It's also fun to discuss the differences between religions and ponder their historical significance. You'll also find that, on average, those who are even mildly religious tend to be happier than those who aren't at all.

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[i] Why is religion fundamental to humans? Human beings are more than capable of functioning, never mind prospering in the absence of religion. Indeed, it could be argued that religion has a negative effect on those who believe.

[ii] Why do you think that denying the rantings of some bronze age illiterates is a denial of oneself?

[iii]So in the absence of someone telling me what to do I am in peril of murdering, raping, robbing someone?

[iv]Why does someone need to believe? Why can't they just think for themselves instead of being told what to do all the time?

If people feel the need to follow religion that's fine by me but don't infer that others who are able to think freely are somehow degraded for not doing what you think they should do. Religion is, and always has been a tool for manipulating, (hence controlling) the masses. TBH I'm amazed in this day and age why anyone would choose to become religious. There again, very few do choose as the brainwashing starts at an early age.

Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

Because archeologists are such great experts about cognitive ability...
So, you basically say that atheists are unnatural, immoral, immature, stupid and unhappy. And you seriously wonder why people dislike theists? You gotta be kidding ~:rolleyes:

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Yes. And yes, if you look at my post you'll see that's EXACTLY what I said. :dizzy2:

IA:

I: Why is walking on only two legs fundamental to humans? Show me a culture that has prospered in the absence of religion. You really can't because even in communist countries you can find an underground religious population. Ever hear of throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

II: You're proving one of my points.

III: See #II

IV: Perhaps you should read the whole post. Did I ever advocate a theocracy?

Look at your ranting, your assumptions, and gross generalizations and tell me who has been manipulated or brainwashed.

As always, when trying to dissect religion and talking to a man of 'faith', I may as well fart in the wind.

Talk about hubris. I was brought up a Christian, I attended Sunday school and religious instruction on a regular basis. Don't make assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Eclectic

Any organized religion, by itself, is pretty darn absurd. You should be skeptical anytime someone demands that you believe in what somebody else wrote just because the writing says you should. No matter what the level of fluff surrounding the writing.

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A-ha! Liberal in the flesh... :grin:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Personally I found it near impossible for a Scandinavian to say anything positive about Christianity. I can somewhat understand the European animosity towards Christianity given their history and the fact that many of the more religious may have emigrated. Mostly I'm curious to see if another religion will fill in this "moral vacuum" as I call it.

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Can i ask,what are you talking about? So you are generalizing about 25 million people of the area of Scandinavia as atheist. Maybe you oughta come visit here some day and see for your self that most of the Scandinavians are protestant Christians,just like majority of Americans. Do we need to be somekind of far right Christian fanatics before we can be counted out of your "moral vacuum".I say GAH.:help:

i dont get this ''religions cause so much suffering'' argument look at some of the atheist societys (or at least relatively unreligious) we have seen in the past, The USSR, China, Nazi Germany? theres no religion but theres still fighting and suffering.

If there was no religion people would die in the name of patriotism, equality or football! its human nature sadly :wall:

Religion is not fundamental to human nature. It is just the distillation of trial and error survival guides for civilisation.

Its like not understanding how a computer game is played and then making up your own manual as you experiment with the key strokes. Would this manual that was earned by trial and error become a holy text because it explains how to play a game? No.

Eating shellfish and pork when you have poor hygiene and no fridges is lethal. If by trial and error I work out that some things are poisonous in a region and then create a manual of what to eat or not eat would this become a holy text? No.

Not listening to the advice of your elders cuts you off from a wealth of knowledge. We now have degrees, masters and doctorates in which on the whole young people learn from older people. Are universities therefore automatically holy sites? No.

Not killing your fellow citizens and not stealing from them allows for a more cooperative group. Your 'team' will beat your neighbours who are killing and stealing off each other. Are good tactics therefore holy? No.

In short just because something is smart and leads to advantages does not make it holy. What does happen is ancient societies without the ability to examine the root causes of their successful rules and to also enforce those rules will make the rules holy and their ruler a diety or a dieties mouth peice.

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

A-ha! Liberal in the flesh... :grin:

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I'm a spiritual eclectic. All religions have truth in them but none are true by themselves.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

i dont get this ''religions cause so much suffering'' argument look at some of the atheist societys (or at least relatively unreligious) we have seen in the past, The USSR, China, Nazi Germany? theres no religion but theres still fighting and suffering.

If there was no religion people would die in the name of patriotism, equality or football! its human nature sadly :wall:

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Hm, both the USSR and China are totalitarian regimes that tried to unnaturally supress religious thought. One might point out that it worked somewhat, but one must also point out that the main reason for unhapiness there was the fact that the economy wasn't doing so good and that it was a totalitarian regime and freedoms were scarce. Nazi Germany is a very different story, the difference is, whatever you may say, that the people were quite happy and devoted to the system, and to point things out, religion wasn't supressed, it was simply ignored, like the best systems do ... do what you will, as long as you don't bother others. Many priests sided with fascists and nazis (especially fascists).

And since there is religion people die because someone who claims God talks to him says so. Thank you, but I'll choose to die in the name of patriotism or eqality any day.

It's not that being non-religious doesn't cause suffering, it's just that religion causes more trouble than it's worth.

And I honestly don't know why I keep getting into these debates.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Well a couple things:

First, your 10 second rule. If it takes you 10 seconds to determine your beliefs than there's something wrong with the way you process information. Maybe your Christians adhere to the pillage and burn tradition of your ancestors but that's not my experience. Really, what were your ancestors like before Christianity?

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The 10 seconds rule weren't the time needed to determine your beliefs, it was to define what's good about it from a neutral viewpoint. Things with complicated explainations of why it's good, is often in a bad position when it comes to defending it for whatever reason.
As for the second part: "The monk in armour", Magdeburg. Quite normal behavior in wars and raids.
Now had you said human sacrifices, then you might had a point. Although that was about 900-1000 years ago and hardly a point of why religion is good today.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

If you're asking what's positive about a solid moral foundation that stresses love and tolerance, I guess you got me there [sic].

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And here's actually the only good piece in there. But why would that require you to belive in a divine being setting those rules for us?

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Religion, spirituality or whatever you choose to call it is fundamental to our existence as humans. If you look at even the most atheistic archeologist you'll find that they say the existence of religion is a result of our greater cognitive ability.

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Not sure about fundamental here. Spirituality is a development of the question why? The existance of divine beings gives both a better "explaination" of why things happens than "because it's some random happenings by some things" and more importantly, gives the feeling of some control of these random elements. Want a better harvest? You can either hope for luck or pray.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

To deny religion is to deny a part of yourself. Without it what do you rely on, your baser instincts, reason alone? Many religions share many fundamentals for a simple reason, people need to believe. The actions they take as a part of that belief are a different story.

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And beliving gives what? The idea that a god has given you those ideas and therefore they're always right?
Or they share those fundamentals because it's easy to build a society on those ideas...

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

One of the reasons why people oppose religion in the US is that they hate feeling that they may be doing something wrong (I expect that is fairly universal). As a result they lash out against religious symbols and beliefs where ever they see them. One of the reasons I support religion is because of the actions that those people take against it. It's also fun to discuss the differences between religions and ponder their historical significance. You'll also find that, on average, those who are even mildly religious tend to be happier than those who aren't at all.

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I would be interested to hear more about the first statement. What's the wrong you talk about for example?
And there's not need to belive to study theology and religion's historical importance.
As for the happiness argument. As intelligence does inflict negative on happiness and being poor and very rich also does it, we should implement socialism and also trying to be as stupid as possible?
Hardly a good argument is it?

Religion isn't for all and has never been really.

And finally about the situation in Scandinavia. Christianity has found it's place here, and while many is poor Christians they'll also poor Atheists. It's there, but it doesn't shout it's presence daily anymore.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

i dont get this ''religions cause so much suffering'' argument look at some of the atheist societys (or at least relatively unreligious) we have seen in the past, The USSR, China, Nazi Germany? theres no religion but theres still fighting and suffering.

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that wouldn´t have anything to do with the fact that the 3 examples that you mentioned were bloody dictatorships that imposed their will through force on their own people as well as other would it? :laugh4: I don´t see how you can point to atheism as the source of those countries problems.

In those countries atheism was intituted because religion constituted a threat to the power of the state, so the state itself tried to kill religion off...along with anything it disagreed with...with violent means!...Hell religious leaders through history did the very same thing, only instead forcing people to join their religion...........In a society that naturally progresses towards atheism, like i´m happy to see europe is doing the same problems do not aply.

NAZI Germany was atheistic? I guess they should have dropped the "Gott mit Eins" motto, then. I always thought they considered themselves as Christians.

In Buddhism, rapture could be translated to enlightenment. Each person is capable of reaching enlightenment (becoming a buddha, or more accurately, realizing their own buddhahood) individually.

There is no "getting ready" for enlightenment. Enlightenment is a realization, not an event.

Buddhism and other Chinese philosophies like Daoism don't ask you to believe in anything, just pursue wisdom and virtue.

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

Buddhism and other Chinese philosophies like Daoism don't ask you to believe in anything, just pursue wisdom and virtue.

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:rolleyes:

Where's the fun in that? You mean you don't get to burn people?

:wink:

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

:rolleyes:

Where's the fun in that? You mean you don't get to burn people?

:wink:

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Just ask Hulegu Khan... :wink:

Back to rapture ready Of coarse the fact that large chunks of Christianity have anticipated doomdays since exactly 14 seconds after Jesus died doesnt seem to dampen their enthusiasm for lots of people dying horribly.

And now for the date of the Christian apocalypse which is going to occur any second now.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Christian apocalypse is not coming nor is it ever coming. Their may be a catyclismic events in the future, However they will never be specificly based on christian theology/Mythology anymore than Ragnerok, the Hindu end times or whatever

The book of revelations was written by a Greek bull(word for poop) artist/doomsday quack (not peter) quite a while after it's supposes author was dead, it's an insight into 2nd century Christina politics not a guideplan to the future. It only got in the official bible line-up after a comitee (!) where persuaded it was written by old Pete

Their isnt going to be a rapture because even if Revalations was correct the idea of the rapture was invented (made up) in the 19th damn century, their is no anti-christ, Rome is the seat of a dead empire, the head of the Catholic church and a truly awsome place to visit: not the dark capital of an new evil empire, Jesus is probably not coming back. The Jews going back to Israel is just that not some magic starting shot.

Get over it already

meh. it doesnt matter some christians such as catholics, dont believe in there will be a anti-christ. or a rapture. (i think) and since im catholic i dont believe Rome will be a capital of an evil empire! it's imo is the second capital of christianity imo. (after Jerusalem) (though before i was worried of an anti-christ)

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

Buddhism and other Chinese philosophies like Daoism don't ask you to believe in anything, just pursue wisdom and virtue.

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Eh Tachi, Buddhism isn't chinese.

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NAZI Germany was atheistic? I guess they should have dropped the "Gott mit Eins" motto, then. I always thought they considered themselves as Christians.

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The Nazis embraced Christianity and used it to their own advantages with the common people, but the leadership believed in the occult and pre-christian mythology. If the war had been won, they most certainly would have created a "religion" that mixed nationalism and spiritualism into a Teutonic society that had just as much faith in its own supremacy as it did in the supernatural.

I believe the "Gott mit Eins" was a German army tradition that originated long before the Nazis came to power. Im not sure though.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

Eh Tachi, Buddhism isn't chinese.

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That's kind of like saying that Christianity is not European. The Chinese adopted Buddhism, even if it began in a neighboring country.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

i dont get this ''religions cause so much suffering'' argument look at some of the atheist societys (or at least relatively unreligious) we have seen in the past, The USSR, China, Nazi Germany? theres no religion but theres still fighting and suffering.

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Nazi Germany was as much an atheist society as it was a Jewish theocracy. Atheists, laizists and other free thinkers got prosecuted and killed in concentration camps. By Christians, among others.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Yes. And yes, if you look at my post you'll see that's EXACTLY what I said. :dizzy2:

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Yes, that's what you said. Read your own posts above.

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

That's kind of like saying that Christianity is not European. The Chinese adopted Buddhism, even if it began in a neighboring country.

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I wouldn't call christianity European, either.

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

Nazi Germany was as much an atheist society as it was a Jewish theocracy. Atheists, laizists and other free thinkers got prosecuted and killed in concentration camps. By Christians, among others.

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Thats a bit misleading, don't you think?

Although technically correct, those involved in the camps were acting more as Nazis than Christians. While they may have been born Christian, the Nazi element and the pressure to follow orders influenced their involvement far more than any Christian beliefs they held.

Those that imagined, planned, and created the holocaust were definitely not Christian.

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Originally Posted by Ronin

that wouldn´t have anything to do with the fact that the 3 examples that you mentioned were bloody dictatorships that imposed their will through force on their own people as well as other would it? :laugh4: I don´t see how you can point to atheism as the source of those countries problems.

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dont you see, thats not what im saying, what im saying is that bad stuff happens in atheist societys too

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Originally Posted by Ronin

In those countries atheism was intituted because religion constituted a threat to the power of the state, so the state itself tried to kill religion off...along with anything it disagreed with...with violent means!...Hell religious leaders through history did the very same thing, only instead forcing people to join their religion...........In a society that naturally progresses towards atheism, like i´m happy to see europe is doing the same problems do not aply.

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society started with atheism didnt it? then religion came, i wonder why? have you not seen the spate of new religions ariveing just as people say its dieing out

Im not saying religions perfect and contrary to what other posters have said i did not even say that my examples were compleately atheist states i said relatively unreligous, and as PanzerJager very rightly pointed out those that orchestrated such terrors as the holocaust were either not christians or mad!

Im sure there were lots of christians in nazi germany, but the atheists in these countrys managed to slaughter, and sacrifice themselves without any religion to hide behind and that is the point im making, appologies if it was not clear